Prog ages well, doesn't it? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 00:58

The mellotron is a timeless sound.

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Chris S

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 01:30

Classics do not date from any era

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ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 07:29

Strong musical ideas are resilient enough to withstand being couched in the extant styles of the time they were conceived in. That's why it's only those 'great' songs that contemporary artists attempt to cover from the past.
If 'Yesterday' by the Beatles were rendered by a flat footed Bolivian nostril flute marching band, it might sound texturally awful, but you would still walk away whistling the melody.

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 11:17

It does, indeed it does.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:00

progbethyname wrote:

The mellotron is a timeless sound.

Agreed. Have you ever checked out Planet Mellotron?

http://www.planetmellotron.com/

It's an active site devoted to the mighty tron. My favourite feature is an A-Z list of albums since the 1950's featuring the tron (and it's father the Chamberlin and step-child the Birotron). What makes this list cool is each album is rated 1 to 5 according to the amount of tron content - and most albums include a written review focusing on tron specifics as well.

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Negoba

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 12:40

I would agree with the effect of production. DSOTM is an album that has a timeless quality and frankly so does Back in Black. In common is production that is perfect for the music and both defined a sound rather than following trends.

Solsbury Hill works like that for me though some of Gabriel's material is extremely of its time.

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 19:12

stegor wrote:

^ I was just listening to Last Autumn's Dream. I love it, but yes, it sounds very dated. But the next album, Floating World, a mere year or two later, is timeless. What happened? I think Jade Warrior is an excellent case study for the dated concept. It's not just the recording or the music of Last Autumn's Dream that's dated, it's the whole package. The album cover, the photos, the song titles, the instrumentation, the recording, the production, the engineering. Then they switched labels from Vertigo to Island and wham! Floating World and the next few albums are timeless. When I listen to some of those tracks I can't believe they were recorded in the '70's. And they weren't remixed by Steven Wilson.

I'm in complete agreement. Last Autumn's Dream sounds very dated even to someone like me and you who love it. Havard's sound like old style Beat poetry at times too, though, again I love it. And then there's Floating World, which sounds either ahead of it's time or just plain timeless as you say.

progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 23:48

Marty McFly wrote:

It does, indeed it does.

Hey McFly!!! I thought I told ya to never come in here!! Lol. Bifff!

Anyway. You are right. Indeed it does!

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progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: June 27 2013 at 23:51

The.Crimson.King wrote:

progbethyname wrote:

The mellotron is a timeless sound.

Agreed. Have you ever checked out Planet Mellotron?

http://www.planetmellotron.com/

Ah yes!! I've heard of this but I admit I've been away for
This site for a while. Thanks for the reminder of this clever site to praise our dear tron. The TRON is the face of prog. It really is. For example. What's an IQ album without any TRON??? Oh that would hurt my feelings. Lol

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progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: June 28 2013 at 11:23

Chris S wrote:

Classics do not date from any era

I like this comment. ;)

Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'

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Posted: June 28 2013 at 12:21

^ Nobody does.

Dayvenkirq View Drop Down

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Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:03

Gerinski wrote:

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).

Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'.

Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink

). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.

Objective? Yeah, right. Ermm

The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.

1) There is this kind of prog that when I ("I", not the general "you") hear an album, a classic like Selling England ... , I would think and say "That sounds really good, but you can't do it today on a live gig anywhere in my town." Why? Because ...

a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside.

b) People keep looking for new things. Here's one irritating complaint that I hear from my acquaintances every now and then: "Oh, gosh, this music sounds really old", at which point I want to tell them to go to a different room and perform something unspeakable on themselves. Here's another favorite of mine: "What year is it from?" (Like they need that to make an informed opinion.)

c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?

As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.

2) What do you mean by "dated" or "didn't age well"? Something that is unpopular and sounds really lame today? Or something that is just unpopular today? Something that sounds cheesy by our standards? Focus on the language, and only then work your way out into cosmos.

My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that).

Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 28 2013 at 13:07

Gerinski

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Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:37

Well, I know, I dared to mention the word 'objective' when I reckon that anything of this sort is subjective, but I know what I meant, even if it may be hard to convey in words.

If we forget about instrumentation and production and focus on music style, composition, arrangements etc, Prog has remained much more stable. The Flower Kings, Steven Wilson, Beardfish or Transatlantic may make music now which in terms of style is not too different from the 70's Prog. Conversely, if you take a 70's Prog classic piece and re-record it today (say for example, Yes' Long Distance Runaround), if you wouldn't know it it would be really hard to pin down when was it composed, some modern Prog is very similar in style, you might say 'it sounds like 70's Prog' as much as you could say 'it sounds as 00's Prog'. On the other hand with other styles, say Rockabilly or 80's New Wave, even a piece composed today will sound as if it was composed at the time those styles were mainstream.

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Posted: June 28 2013 at 17:07

Dayvenkirq wrote:

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rogerthat

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Posted: June 29 2013 at 10:10

Gerinski wrote:

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink

). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.

It is pretty easy to deduce from this that you like the essential classic rock sound (though I don't know how many classic rock bands you like). Since prog in the 70s shared a lot of the stylistic elements of classic rock, it is not surprising that you would not find prog dated. Those who are not fond of some typical 70s sounds may not agree. I do find some of Banks or Emerson's synth tones cringe worthy. Thought Wakeman, Wright and Minnear were much more restrained in that regard. And since you insist that the music itself in prog is not dated (which would again depend on which specific prog rock bands), I have to ask what exactly makes new wave dated musically speaking. Is it not 80s production itself that is much more annoying than the actual music? The better new wave bands like Police or Talking Heads made some excellent music (and some imo with great production too). There are plenty by the numbers prog rock bands too that people who didn't grow up in the 70s don't really need if they can help it, but probably not the best ones from the 70s. Which is just like most, if not all, genres of music.

A thought that occurred to me: the soaring wall of sound effect and/or the "aaaa" chorus could arguably be a dated 70s musical element. It can sound really great when done well but it was also overused in that decade and I get this feeling only after listening to mostly essential stuff. Wonder how it would have felt if I had had to sit through it all and sift the good from the bad. I mean, not every emotion needs to sound epic and bombastic.

Edited by rogerthat - June 29 2013 at 23:43

moshkito

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Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:35

psarros wrote:

agree...and just read this statement on the bottom of the page.

http://www.vintageprog.com/index.htm

ALL musical, or artistic scenes, that "age well" will be remembered in one way or another.

But I can tell you that almost (Dean will know a name or two I bet!) no one remembers the most famous singer (or seller for these days), on the year 1913), that had all the shows he could possibly want!

In the end, there is one thing that is important ... that you are not seeing and the comment that is quoted is not seeing ... and is something that you can EASILY see, and check for yourself in the history of all the arts ... there is a sentiment that carries through the time and the place, that is a part of the art ... and it is VISIBLE.

Progressive is an extension of the 1960's, and in my book, I like to say that it was when the dope was taken out some, we found out that we had some arts to work with ... and the immediate combination of all arts ... helped make it an important time and place!

Without that ... it all becomes just another band out there in the miriad of bands! Or arts!

The hardest part of all, for folks here, is for them to see that KC's early work, ELP, Genesis, and anyone else, and then realize ... oh my gawd ... film is also there ... painting is also there ... the literature is also there and has been for 10 years already ... but too many folks here are centered on the "top ten" mentality and feel offended when told that the rest of the arts IS what makes these things work ... otherwise, you are just another nobody that will not be remembered ....

Just look at the history of the arts ... and then look a bit away from your "progressive" monster, and see him as a part of the universe that he tried to create for us! We were ALL there, too ... and it's like saying those folks can be progressive, and we can't ... and that is not only false, it is also insensitive and uneducated! And many of the folks in this board also know and understand ... that a part of that "progressive'ness" is IN THEM ... not just a bunch of folks that we hand pick because of a note, or scale, or jagged riff, or some other silly, bizarre and idiotic idea like an instrument that "prog" uses, that otheres don't!

Edited by moshkito - June 29 2013 at 15:44

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moshkito

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Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:43

progbethyname wrote:

Chris S wrote:

Classics do not date from any era

I like this comment. ;)

Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'

Sadly, because it is associated with radio hits ... most of which have absolutely nothing on "progressive" or "prog"!

But it's hard to tell folks, even in this board, that prog ages well, and every composer for the past 600 years, was "progressive" from what was available before ... and we will not ever want to study that ... because it would be STUDYING ... and that's not something that a "fan" does ...

I guess Beethoven ages well ... let me put on ELO and find out! ... or see if Amadeus Rocks Me still! Damn ... dancing ashes ... can you believe it?

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humor4u1959 View Drop Down

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Posted: June 30 2013 at 23:23

Some prog still sounds "classic" as others have said. Some sounds so ridiculous it makes me laugh. And these are some songs even by my favorites. So, it depends on the piece, I suppose.

I think 'Supper's Ready' sounds very dated. Rubber Soul by the Beatles sounds more relevant and less dated than a lot of progressive rock from the 1970's, at least to me.

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Posted: July 02 2013 at 13:23

Dayvenkirq wrote:

Gerinski wrote:

When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).

Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?

The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? Wink

). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it.

Objective? Yeah, right. Ermm

The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.

a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside.

c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?

As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.

That's great opinion :) I think that you can't be objective talking about art - it's itself very subjective; very personal. But afterall Genesis, ELP, Pink Floyd and whatever prog band from the best selling ones you can find, made a professional deal with large record labels and reamined in rock music genre; this genre can be considered as popular music - at least by record labels boards and producers, because they want to maximize the profit. Even at "our classic" prog rock.

Maybe nowdays a "global popular music village" is same as your hometown and dominated by the same public (people in my hometown are the same for sure :). So for the producers "classic" prog music is aging and we won't hear a lot of it in mainstream medias. Which can make us think that something different form mainstream is aged. That's why it's woth to keep to your personal vision of music :)

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progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: July 02 2013 at 23:03

^ wow. Three well thought out, lucid answers. I think all (3) of you make very good points pertaining to the 'age' relevancy in prog and in art for that matter.

My feeling is this. I live in sh*tsville as well when it comes to the open mindedness towards prog. I have given up years ago on that matter. I cannot objectify the art and relevancy behind prog music in general. My friends, acquaintances and even family members make fun of me for what they usually call 'eccentric tastes in music or old man music.' I mean how ridiculous is that!
Anyway. I gave up on people in my life with regards to expressing my love for progressive music. Actually, the other day I was in the car with my brother and his soon to be wife, so I took a stab at filling their ears with some beautiful prog.
I put on IQ's ZERO HOUR. It's a pretty straight forward, yet wonderfully crafted song that even has some brass instruments in it. Why do they say? "well...this sucks!" then my brother put his I pod on and played some country music. Long story short, I lost my sh*t on both of them not because they did not like it, but because of a very stupid comment.
I no longer have a brother. Lol. Just kidding.
Anyway. Prog is either a hit or a big miss with most people, so I have to say that as far as the aging matter is concerned it all depends on the individual. Personally I feel it ages incrediblely well, especially compared with a lot of the new music that is pumped out year after year. I slammed on 'US AND THEM' by pink Floyd and GRENDEL by Marillion and it still as fresh and beautiful as the day I first heard it many years ago.

So what am I to make of all this? Can I say that my music tastes are dated? I think not because what the hell should I compare it to, other than 21st century prog?

Now given my environment by how others have reacted to my music tastes I can say prog is still not old because people, quite simply, don't understand it. That's all.

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