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Why Should we care about New Prog mania ?

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trackstoni View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:24
I'm sure you had a point to make there,... but what was it..?   Mr . DEAN  //
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Post Options Post Options   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:32
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by dr wu23

 
I'm sure you had a point to make there,... but what was it..?
Wink
 
I'll leave that for you to work out - if you can't ... *shrug*

   <<   Well Dean , i'm not gonna break the Walls of Babylon now , by using a Trojan Horse !!  i'll simply gonna ask , did you all , i mean Eldest , fifty or more , expect more productivity in the last four decades  !?  >>   Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:35
   Anyway , the Floyds , the Crimsons , Yes , ELP , Jethro Tull , are still active !!   why they haven't throw any Masterpiece after 1982 !??
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Post Options Post Options   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 14:55
I just think that in our younger years, we are more inclined to love music deeply (in general.......always there are exceptions).  At least for me, growing up in the 70's and 80's, the music that resonated with most was the music of that time frame.  I spent the 90's discovering 70's prog rock, so I kind of missed those years for new music (though I did like some Grunge and a lot of jam bands).

When I was young we used to make fun of old folks going to Elvis shows, or Barry Manilow, or whatever over the hill artist, long past their prime, that older people were nostalgic about.

Now, old proggers go to Yes concerts to hear 30 year old music performed by 60+ year old gentleman.  What, exactly, is the difference?  I don't see any, quite frankly.

Now, this isn't to put anyone down.  I'm not some special case, I still find the music of the 70's to be the "best" music to my ears that I've heard in my life (again, there are always exceptions).  It has the most emotional meaning to me, the most resonance to me personally.  Does that mean it was simply better than anything produced today?  Most music listeners in the world would probably say that it doesn't mean that, and that it isn't better.  Because they are young, and newer music has touched them and has meaning for their lives, meaning that we can't ever understand because we are not young right now.

I love a good deal of modern prog, and when I'm being objective about it, I can honestly say that some of it is as good or better than anything put out in the 60's and 70's.  What I can't say is that it has the same emotional impact as hearing ELP or Genesis for the first time when I was 20 years old and had loads of free time to devote to music and music listening.  I will never be that 20 year old again, just like like the members of Genesis or ELP or Yes will never be the 20 year olds that were wildly creative and fresh and new and exciting.  That, of course, will never happen again.  But dwelling on that means you won't even notice when some other 20 year olds create something new and exciting that your kids will love.  Because it's not the music that moved you so much when you were young.


Edited by infandous - July 08 2013 at 14:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 15:25
Wise words, man  Ying Yang
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 17:44
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 18:57
Originally posted by trackstoni


Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by dr wu23

 
I'm sure you had a point to make there,... but what was it..?

Wink

 

I'll leave that for you to work out - if you can't ... *shrug*

   <<   Well Dean , i'm not gonna break the Walls of Babylon now , by using a Trojan Horse !!  i'll simply gonna ask , did you all , i mean Eldest , fifty or more , expect more productivity in the last four decades  !?  >>   Confused


Of course you won't break any walls using a Trojan Horse... because the trojan horse wasn't used to break any walls, but to infiltrate and conquer from within.    Now, that has absolutley nothing to do with any conversation on this thread, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 20:33
Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by zumacraig

Many good points made above concerning issues I have a keen interest in.  Great topic!  I totally agree, 68-82 were golden years for basically all genres of music.  An argument could be made for 65-83.  Dylan, the Byrds and Beatles really hit their stride in 1965 and I always thought Ammonia Avenue was the last bit of well produced pop/prog.  There have been outliers since then, but production values really went to sh*t by the mid 80s.  At the same time, quality of song writing dwindled.  This I think was do to the fact that the 70s zeitgeist imploded, creative sparks cooled and technology increased.  The research on creativity shows that the greats usually have a good ten years and then another uptick years after.  So, in reality, these dudes were absolutely lucky and the stars aligned.  Analog instruments, the second decade of rock, no cliches yet, cool clothes, good taste, nonexistent profit motive...

As far a the new bands go, there's some good ones.  I put up with modern production in order to hear something new.  The old stuff gets tiring, although I always end up back there.  I wont the new prog bands's songwriting is as good as their elders.  Some is, but they are in a position where there's nothing new under the sun.  Also, they are slaves to technology and horrible production.  The ability to make albums listenable is there, but bands are clueless.  Add in crappy mixing and compressed mastering and it's a wonder anyone listens to new prog/metal.  For example, why why why the gated drums?!  What happened to that warm studio in the room sound?  

Some of my newer favorites are Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater.  However, all of these bands have healthy doses of cheese, questionable production and over-progging.  Let's bring back sane production, seriousness in the music and intentional songwriting!

@Toddler, as far as ignorance of music, it's rampant in all circles, especially in rock.  I'm a geek, so I know minute details, but if you call yourself a fan of a certain genre or band, at least know what you're talking about.  Extend this to phenomenon to other areas of society and it's quite clear how ignorant people are.  We've been trained to NOT think critically and understand ambiguity and nuance.  It's sad and will probably be our demise.

Again, regarding production it's entirely subjective. I'm not denying that there's a lot of lazy production going on today but there's a lot of really good work out there too. And not everything from the 70's was quality, most of those albums were recorded on the cheap as record labels wouldn't shell out for them, particularly if a bands first album failed to sell 600 000 000 000 000 000 000 records, and as such I've come across more than a few albums with lifeless sounding rhythm sections or seriously questionable mixes.

The common denominator is so low when it comes to prog production.  Steven Wilson is an outlier, but even he insists on lots of reverb.  It's ridiculous.  If prog albums sounded like Wilco's A Ghost Is Born, we'd have a much different and aesthetic scene.  Maybe even more popularity.  Yes's music was difficult, but it was good and easy to listen to...hence their rise to arena fame.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2013 at 20:34
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

Toni you are drunk

    Yes Indeed   !   if i was sober i wasn't able to Say those Words & Create that Idea , i'm still listening to Comedy of Errors / Fanfare , since four month on everyday basis , i love this album , cause i felt , one way or another , it was stolen from previous ideas , that was made long before , but , in a wise & pro ways !!  i'm a real Porcupines  , Opeth , Nemrud , Blackfield , Dreamtheater .... etc ....   FAN , but i always refer to the Origin , and the Roots of Music , cause i believe , no matter what , that kind of Creativity is not available anymore , even with those pioneers that still living now !!   it was only a matter of the right timing , the right places & the right people , that's why we've had it all in one decade //   Cheers anyway , i'm still Drinking my Milk !!   Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sacred_mushroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 07:18
Originally posted by trackstoni

  between 1968 & 1982 ,  we've had the best Masterpieces of Progressive Rock from Bands living in every spot of the Earth .  i really believe today in 2013 , that we've had it all from those people , my full satisfaction was always guarantied when i listen to those Pioneers & their Excellent releases , Close to the Edge for instance , Lark's Tongues or TAAB .... etc .....   are still my favorites in 4 decades , sometimes better than that !   i really know & appreciate what , some New Prog bands are trying to do , but i always find weakness in their productivity , they have much better equipment & tool then before , some bands knows how to take advantage from that , but the majority is not !!   Anyway , some new release from 1999 till now are much appreciated , it includes some Masterpieces , but not even on the level of one Harvest of the 70's , so , why should i turn my back on what i call Genius to what i barely call Amateur !  i've never though for a while that things can turn this way !!   there are excellent bands nowadays trying very hard to keep the concept of Progressive living , but seems cannot be compared with what was fulfilled  yesterday !   Yesterday , i used to Appreciate moments and feel the Greatness of Music , but , today i'm only trying hard to Appreciate the Power of Music again !  it seems it can't be done  !!!!!


Hi trackstoni, i totally agree with you! In my opinion it is not possible to repeat this great era of music (late 60s to early 70s). Zeitgeist has changed everything. I'm not listening to New-Prog music, it does not appeal to me in any way. 

But when I listen to old bands like Beggar's Opera, Gracious, Twenty Sixty Six And Then, Raw Material, Kin Ping Meh, Julian's Treatment, I Drive, Cressida, Skin Alley, Human Instinct, My Solid Ground, King Crimson, Pan, Froggie Beaver etc. i feel like I've gone to heaven and back, it's incredible!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sleeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 09:20
Originally posted by zumacraig

Originally posted by sleeper

Originally posted by zumacraig

Many good points made above concerning issues I have a keen interest in.  Great topic!  I totally agree, 68-82 were golden years for basically all genres of music.  An argument could be made for 65-83.  Dylan, the Byrds and Beatles really hit their stride in 1965 and I always thought Ammonia Avenue was the last bit of well produced pop/prog.  There have been outliers since then, but production values really went to sh*t by the mid 80s.  At the same time, quality of song writing dwindled.  This I think was do to the fact that the 70s zeitgeist imploded, creative sparks cooled and technology increased.  The research on creativity shows that the greats usually have a good ten years and then another uptick years after.  So, in reality, these dudes were absolutely lucky and the stars aligned.  Analog instruments, the second decade of rock, no cliches yet, cool clothes, good taste, nonexistent profit motive...

As far a the new bands go, there's some good ones.  I put up with modern production in order to hear something new.  The old stuff gets tiring, although I always end up back there.  I wont the new prog bands's songwriting is as good as their elders.  Some is, but they are in a position where there's nothing new under the sun.  Also, they are slaves to technology and horrible production.  The ability to make albums listenable is there, but bands are clueless.  Add in crappy mixing and compressed mastering and it's a wonder anyone listens to new prog/metal.  For example, why why why the gated drums?!  What happened to that warm studio in the room sound?  

Some of my newer favorites are Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater.  However, all of these bands have healthy doses of cheese, questionable production and over-progging.  Let's bring back sane production, seriousness in the music and intentional songwriting!

@Toddler, as far as ignorance of music, it's rampant in all circles, especially in rock.  I'm a geek, so I know minute details, but if you call yourself a fan of a certain genre or band, at least know what you're talking about.  Extend this to phenomenon to other areas of society and it's quite clear how ignorant people are.  We've been trained to NOT think critically and understand ambiguity and nuance.  It's sad and will probably be our demise.

Again, regarding production it's entirely subjective. I'm not denying that there's a lot of lazy production going on today but there's a lot of really good work out there too. And not everything from the 70's was quality, most of those albums were recorded on the cheap as record labels wouldn't shell out for them, particularly if a bands first album failed to sell 600 000 000 000 000 000 000 records, and as such I've come across more than a few albums with lifeless sounding rhythm sections or seriously questionable mixes.

The common denominator is so low when it comes to prog production.  Steven Wilson is an outlier, but even he insists on lots of reverb.  It's ridiculous.  If prog albums sounded like Wilco's A Ghost Is Born, we'd have a much different and aesthetic scene.  Maybe even more popularity.  Yes's music was difficult, but it was good and easy to listen to...hence their rise to arena fame.


No, it's not. And just to prove my point about subjectivity, Yes suck and I find The Yes album and Close to the Edge have an overly flat production.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 09:22
Just goes to show how differently we hear these albums. The Yes Album is without a doubt my favourite Yes album bar none.
I happen to adore the warmth and slightly naive feel of the production.


Edited by Guldbamsen - July 09 2013 at 09:45
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 09:44
@Infandous,

I agree, WISE WORDS.  Great point about the emotional impact of hearing music for the first time.  I've mentioned this before in the TFK thread, but it bears repeating in this conversation,  As I get older, visceral reactions to music are waining.  Nothing really blows me away, and if it does, it's fleeting.  Case in point, the new Queens of the Stone Age album.  First listen I was head banging.  But, like good pop, it lost it's luster.

These days, I prefer stuff that is listenable, but also rewarding and challenging.  That's why I like Flower Kings.  My only gripe, as I said before, is the production values that have plagued prog and metal since the mid 80s; the fake reversed live sound, compressing, gated drum.  I've learned to live with it.  Steven Wilson's stuff is dynamic, but still has a bit of 80s in it.  The last Flower Kings album was pretty good and Neal Morse has more of a studio feel on his albums...although his stuff is so compressed.  I think the 'new' prog bands should take a cue from some of the indie rock production values.  Those dudes make horrible music, but at least have warm production.  Also, Wobbler has excellent production.  Please dry up the drums!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 09:48
Originally posted by trackstoni

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

Toni you are drunk

    Yes Indeed   !   if i was sober i wasn't able to Say those Words & Create that Idea , i'm still listening to Comedy of Errors / Fanfare , since four month on everyday basis , i love this album , cause i felt , one way or another , it was stolen from previous ideas , that was made long before , but , in a wise & pro ways !!  i'm a real Porcupines  , Opeth , Nemrud , Blackfield , Dreamtheater .... etc ....   FAN , but i always refer to the Origin , and the Roots of Music , cause i believe , no matter what , that kind of Creativity is not available anymore , even with those pioneers that still living now !!   it was only a matter of the right timing , the right places & the right people , that's why we've had it all in one decade //   Cheers anyway , i'm still Drinking my Milk !!   Wink

I don't think that creativity is gone, but the bands you mentioned kind of over do it.  Every idea doesn't have to be recorded.  The best prog was always a group effort and used only each member's best stuff.  This is how Close to the Edge was made as well as all the great Rush albums.

Speaking of Rush, I think Moving Pictures would be a great baseline for production.  Somehow they integrated the best of the 70s and what was to come in the 80s.  Drama by Yes is another great example.  Not slick, but not reversed to hell.  Love that album with Squire's bass up front rather than way in the back.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zumacraig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2013 at 09:56
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Just goes to show how differently we hear these albums. The Yes Album is without a doubt my favourite Yes album bar none.
I happen to adore the warmth and slightly naive feel of the production.

Bands should release two versions of their albums; studio mix, reverb mix.   Tongue

I think KC are a good example of what I've been trying to say on this thread.  They can be annoying as hell to my ears, but they are listenable precisely because of the in studio, warm production.  They still play the same music, but Thrak was a mess of mush.  Crimson and reverb drenched hair band production do not mix.


Edited by zumacraig - July 09 2013 at 09:57
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 00:56
Why does it matter so much if it's old or new?  Isn't it all about listening to music, per se?  And what is that then that you are looking for in music?  Just a particular sound that you once fell in love with and want to hear over and over, or a great experience?  If it's the latter, it necessarily involves widening your prism of what can be a great experience.  And perhaps learning to once again react intuitively to music rather than analysing and determining to your satisfaction what all is wrong with a new album so that you have successfully eliminated any chance you had of enjoying it.  This is where we go wrong today: categorizing and tabulating music into so many compartments.  Which is fine up to a point, but when you start complaining about the box it fits into (which is apparently not what you thought it was going to be), that's not so progressive at all.  

Just a simple example to illustrate my point:  I tried in vain to introduce one friend of mine to prog.  I once played Blood on the Rooftops on the speakers with the preface that Genesis have some beautiful acoustic stuff.  After listening to Hackett's wonderful playing in those first two minutes, he quipped, "But this is Spanish."  And that was that.  Ok, it is probably my fault for being imprecise and not saying it would be nylon string.  But is that distinction so important that the sound of beautiful nylon string guitar work instead of acoustic disorients a listener enough not to like it at all and never to try it again?  Do you see the point here?  This is Genesis I am talking about that and there is an alternative prism in which they are not quite so awesome as you or I might think they are.  I am not saying all music is amazing...there's a lot of bad, boring or mediocre music around to be sure.  And it behooves us to listen and learn what might be good about a piece of music rather than cling to our boxes, our tastes, etc.  The artist never asked you for your opinion on his music.  It is for you to reach out and find a level where that magical, emotional connection happens.  It doesn't happen all the time, but that doesn't make it a futile search.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 02:58
Quote  <<  I am not saying all music is amazing...there's a lot of bad, boring or mediocre music around to be sure.  And it behooves us to listen and learn what might be good about a piece of music rather than cling to our boxes, our tastes, etc.  The artist never asked you for your opinion on his music.  It is for you to reach out and find a level where that magical, emotional connection happens.  It doesn't happen all the time, but that doesn't make it a futile search. //   Unquote  >>


  Precisely   //  Wink


Edited by trackstoni - July 10 2013 at 03:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 03:33
Well, but my point is that it applies to old and new albums like.  Once you make up your mind that there's something wrong with new prog in general, you have closed your options.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 04:17
Maybe one day will come where a group will present a concept so revolutionary that we'll have to invent a new name to define this genre of music.  Then perhaps we will give up the word Prog (or neo or avant) for another one under the banner of which new artists will grow freely.
Just a thought Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2013 at 04:32
The only diffrence i find between now and then, is that it seems few bands today, dare spanning as widely in range, as Zappa Floyd Crims and others did back then.
Think its just harder to stay alive if you dont "box" yourself, nowadays.
But on an album level, i find as great albums made after 1982 as before.
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