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Prog !! is it a one man effort , or a Teamwork !

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trackstoni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 13:16
   i'm reading carefully all your posts , but kindly , don't promote yourselves here .  We're all Musicians , one Way or another , I Respect all your opinions , but ....   let's stick to the Main Subject !   thanking you all in Advance //

Edited by trackstoni - July 13 2013 at 12:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2013 at 23:00
In some cases...a musician/composer will make suggestions to the members of their band regarding just what they want for an atmosphere or in general how they want the piece to come across. If a section or 2 features a brief improvisation, it may be suggested as to what vain stylistically they expect from the players. I have in mind Tony Banks directing pieces he wrote and I imagine Hackett and Rutherford consulting him about the colorful ideas they wanted to add to his pieces. That is not exactly teamwork.
 
Many progressive musicians in the 70's added ideas to pieces already completely written  by 1 particular founding member. In otherwords, they had progressive ideas, but not compositions. An "idea person" colors a piece adding a passage of notes or an atmosphere of sound which didn't originally exist when the piece was written.  In a band situation it can be mainly 1 writer and 3 players with ideas to add. It's not quite teamwork regarding composition and the idea person and the composer are 2 seperate worlds. The process could be considered teamwork in the simple logical sense that they are all working together with their efforts, but I don't think it would be fair to say that they should all get the same credit. If members of a prog band are sharing the writing skills for a composition, then it's teamwork in the writing department.
 
In the case of Robert Fripp composing Lizard and Islands himself, imagine Ian Underwood replacing Mel Collins or Chester Thompson instead of Ian Wallace. Who knows....the music may have sounded different ,but with the same level of quality. Still...Wallace and Collins were not writers for King Crimson. The most popular teamwork historically was Wakeman, Howe, Squire, Bruford, and Anderson meeting at the studio , not speaking very much...yet creating and naturally molding compositions for Fragile. Each musician actually wrote a part for "Heart Of The Sunrise" 


Edited by TODDLER - July 15 2013 at 23:08
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2013 at 15:00
Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   i'm reading carefully all your posts , but kindly , don't promote yourselves here .  We're all Musicians , one Way or another , I Respect all your opinions , but ....   let's stick to the Main Subject !   thanking you all in Advance //
 
If you look at music in history and take a different perspective to your question, I think that it is easy to say that music, in general, is undergoing changes, and that for the next however many years, the majority of "composers" are a group, and not one person.
 
That is a concept that "classical" music history is not happy with ... and thus, it is too easy to say that all of rock music and jazz music and basically ALL electric music, will never be recognized. Well, the "classicos" are wrong ... it has already been what? 80 or 90 years of electrical music?
 
And some of the things that it brought to music, was not understood or appreciated ... still isn't! Here is an example:
 
Go listen to Puccini, and you will find that he knows something about "solos" that is very much appreciated in rock music ... he likes them higher and stronger, and louder ... guess what lead guitar solos do in rock music, in general ... think of the likes of DGilmour!
 
Today, you will be hard pressed to list a "composer" that is one person ... mostly they are doing soundtracks or something else, though, you could say a David Bowie, an Elton John, and Madonna, or Kate Bush, are "composers", but we do not think of their music as important enough to give it the title they so richly deserve!
 
I think this is a transitional period in music. In 50 years, this discussion may be mute and a "group" will be apprecaited, but seeing so many orchestras today not adapting to more work that should be done, is pathetic, tiresome and silly. ANY great American orchestra should be doing one or two pieces by Miles Davis, one or two pieces by Frank Zappa, or one or two pieces by someone else ... but America was built by a religious fanaticism, that has spent 300 years killing all the arts ... to make sure the "book" was more important!
 
But you gonna tell me that Frank doesn't fit? Or even Miles? Is there really that much difference between 2, 3 or 4 other folks playing a different instrument than one of them actually sitting down and write it for them? ... sometimes it is not necessary! ... things are just "there"!
 
It's a tough discussion and one that is better left alone and then see what hisroy gives you. I believe "groups" will become accepted as "composers" in the future ... and an orchestra not doing one of their  pieces is only hurting themselves ... more and more as time goes by!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2013 at 16:23
Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2013 at 12:47
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Any great band I love has been a 100% team effort---Jon Anderson needed the other guys and vice versa---the proof is in the pudding---JA solo stuff mostly mediocre---and that is true of many guys solo efforts in relationship to the group effort. 
 
^This
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2013 at 18:25
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!

   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2013 at 08:49
Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:


 
   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap
 
You should wonder about yours ... I was there and one of the folks that helped it become what it did ... not your fault that you weren't born there, but what the heck ... your attitude is so far apart from the whole thing, in fact, quite naive, and you are not willing, capable, or interested in reading a bit more on the subject!
 
So let's talk who is the "progger" of the two!
 
Your question is not even a progressive one!Cool
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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richardh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 00:40
I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett

perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 12:56
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
...
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..
 
Sometimes. Sometimes not.
 
I think that some folks are, at times, better developed, in their ideas of what they would like to see done in music, than others ... I mean, are we going to criticize Mike Oldfield for not playing in a band now? ... and he had his start with Kevin Ayers and a few other folks!
 
I think that folks like Peter Hammill, Roy Harper, Mike Oldfield, Vangelis and many others, already had a well developed sense of identity, in order to be able to define it with music.
 
Folks like Peter Gabriel, learned it with his band ... and we have to give him credit ... he studied, and did his homework ... where most musicians get lazy and go for the fame and close down the shop!
 
The main difference for me, is that in a place like America, where there are no artists, just "stars", it is really difficult to find and help a true artist, and folks like Frank Zappa have to go mental against the system to get something done, because otherwise he wouldn't sell, and would not be able to make a living. He was well known here, mostly due to the LA Free Press, but in New York and Chicago? ... they had their own "gods" and "stars" and he was not appreciated until later! And even John Lennon had already mentioned him, when so few people in America gave a darn, THEN.
 
No two situations are the same ... I just don't think that any music has anything to do with anything, or any kind of music anymore ... and there is no difference between a single and a double anymore (LP's ... hahaha!)  ... and while an interesting question, in so many ways, it is a serious issue that is causing the re-evaluation of the definition of music ... that most folks don't want to deal with ... any more than anyone else here does!
 
 
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 17:18
Band effort - almost by definition...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unclemeat69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2013 at 12:51
Compare VDGG with Peter Hammill solo and you hear the difference.
VDGG is very much a team effort, with Hammill solo he might have much more to say about arrangements.
With a lot of solo albums I think a lot of thought would go into which musicians to hbire to play.
So, even with FZ his bands would sound like the musicians in those bands.
I think Zappa picked his musicians partly for their individual sounds.

Some Todd Rundgren albums are solo efforts (or in the case Something/Anything for 75%).
If it's an actual working band (as opposed to hired session musicians) the group of musicians make up the sound and the arrangements might be worked out by the band maybe with some of them having ideas about each other parts occasionally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2013 at 13:14
Originally posted by unclemeat69 unclemeat69 wrote:


So, even with FZ his bands would sound like the musicians in those bands.
I think Zappa picked his musicians partly for their individual sounds.

I've read that Frank also picked musicians based on how amusing they would be to observe while on tour LOL
I'm using the chicken to measure it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2013 at 10:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:


 
   With such Mentality Dude , I Wonder how you became a Progger  !!  However , it's drifting outside the real subject !!  Anyway , my second Post  was only there because of a special friend who asked me to throw my opinion on this thread  ! 

  Clap
 
You should wonder about yours ... I was there and one of the folks that helped it become what it did ... not your fault that you weren't born there, but what the heck ... your attitude is so far apart from the whole thing, in fact, quite naive, and you are not willing, capable, or interested in reading a bit more on the subject!
 
So let's talk who is the "progger" of the two!
 
Your question is not even a progressive one!Cool

  THANK YOU moskito , ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2013 at 11:05
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2013 at 06:23
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)

Vangelis is one of my favourtes. Just spent stupid money on the SACD of Blade Runner even though I don't have a SACD player! Then booklet is very nice thoughSmile 
666 is a remarkable album and ridiculously under appreciated (imo)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2013 at 17:17
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I wonder which musicians have succeeded in both 'formats' ?
Peter Gabriel
Pete Hammill
Rick Wakeman
Vangelis
Steve Hackett
perhaps also got 'too big for their own boots' or perhaps just a case of talent outgrowing the band format..


I think Vangelis is a huge success in my eyes, in respect to your inquiry.

I look at say, Aphrodite's Child (666) which was a beautiful team effort at that; then, Vangelis's album SPIRAL was an incredible one man wrecking. The Unknown Man works for me. ;)

Vangelis is one of my favourtes. Just spent stupid money on the SACD of Blade Runner even though I don't have a SACD player! Then booklet is very nice thoughSmile 
666 is a remarkable album and ridiculously under appreciated (imo)


If its an SACD/HYBRID disc than you are ok, but I mainly just stuck with the Bladerunner Trilogy edition. It's Enough for me, but i sure would love to hear Bladerunner in full 5.1 audio. :)
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:22
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
  and who the hell are you to tell me what to do in my Thread  !?   my second post was posted cause some friends asked me , what is my main issue from this question !!  as i was linked to Facebook & my Space , i had to Answer that !!  if you feel Startbutnotfinish , i'm in wrong place , just say so , i'm willing to leave immediately  !  well , i promise you that Progger !        Wink    it's Friend anyway not Fiend !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trackstoni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:30
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by trackstoni trackstoni wrote:

   Nothing to add , my Question is above !!  Wink 
And yet you added a comment right after that, YOU FIEND!!! Tongue
 
 
The problem is that I am not sure that he is reading what is being written, except the one liners, and thus, his responses are not about the subject, specially when it gets deeper into it.
 
Sad.
 
When one has the opportunity to learn more, one goes back to kindergarten? ... ok ... whatever!

  the Simple Man just Said to me <  you're an a****le >  and knows nothing about Progressive !  deal with it the Way you Want !   if you're Pushing me moskito , i'm Far away from that , so , let's stick to the Music instead of having Fun !  i'm among the Eldest on this Site , you Respect that  !!  i use to respect your reaction with gratitude , but not anymore !  if i was Stupid , i'm not here answering your stupid comment //
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2013 at 10:54
Mosh has a way of talking down to people and claims to have badges for being from a certain time period. I don't care how old you are sometimes you can learn from those younger than yourself. His verbal spankings are harmless, Carry on with the who is oldest pissing match. Me, I will take a famous line from that wonderful classic "Blazing Saddles"....."We don't need no stinking badges".
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