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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sci Fi TV science or fiction?
    Posted: December 19 2013 at 03:34
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

half a diced pineapple and fresh strawberries...good breakfast


Shocked erm.....could be from a sciFi film I guess.....that was mean't for " what are you eating right now" thread


File:BreakfastOfChampions(Vonnegut).jpg


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 14:38
half a diced pineapple and fresh strawberries...good breakfast


Shocked erm.....could be from a sciFi film I guess.....that was mean't for " what are you eating right now" thread




Edited by Chris S - December 18 2013 at 14:40
<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian

...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 13:22
I said the consensus was infinite based on a colleague doing his PhD for research in active galactic nuclei. I can't pretend to be an expert and up to date with current literature. Unless we want to talk about mathematical physics.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - December 18 2013 at 13:22
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 11:44
Alright I misunderstood you again, sorry for that. Would you then kindly address me to some of the sources saying that the current consensus among physicists or cosmologists is that our universe is infinite please.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 07:12
Yeah what Dean said pretty much. I'm not talking about a multiverse theory. I like to stay away from things with scant evidence. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2013 at 01:29
Nope. As you may recall from our previous "discussions", there is no evidence of a multiverse, I said: If the Universe is infinite then it has always been infinite, I did not say it is infinite - it may be, the consensus says it is, I am not qualified to add my vote to a side. If you consider that the big-bang occurred at a single point then the expansion would be radiating from that single point, however the expansion is happening everywhere in all directions which suggests the big-bang happened everywhere.

The Observable Universe is no more real than the horizon, if you could instantaneously travel to the edge of the Observable Universe 46 billion lightyears away you would see a "different" Observable Universe with Milky Way galaxy at the edge instead of the centre, there is no reason to believe or even suggest that it is a bubble as there are unobservable galaxies outside the Observable Universe.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 23:54
Oh, now I get it, Pat and yourself were probably referring to some kind of multiverse theory where our observable universe is just an expanding bubble in some infinite wholeness containing infinite such expanding bubbles, probably with different laws of physics than ours. Sorry I did not get that before, I must have been unfocussed.
Then yes, I do agree that, although 'consensus' is not the word I would use, such views have increased in popularity over the last years since they can be properly formulated and they solve several hard issues by invoquing the anthropic principle. And although many would dismiss them as untestable, there are actually some ideas proposing that the existence of other bubbles might have observable (and therefore testable) implications in our own bubble. At any rate, still speculation though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 19:01
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

 
 
@ Dean: I already pointed in an earlier post that indeed infinities come in different sizes. Yes, you could hipothesize that the universe has always been infinite, just that 10 billion years ago its infinity was smaller than its current infinity. But this is not the mainstream view, it is simply not true that this is the general consensus opinion. The concept of infinities of different sizes is clear in math, but it is not common (and not obvious at all) to use it in relation to spatiotemporal sizes.
 
Oh no - you asked "how it turned from finite to infinite in a finite amount of time" and the answer to that is "it cannot" (as you are well aware judging by your reply), whether you multiply or divide infinity it remains infinity - it is not a smaller infinity or a bigger infinity, all infinities are the same size (don't bother quoting Cantor at me - size and number are not the same thing). However if you multiply a big number it just becomes a bigger number, if you multiply a bigger number it becomes an even bigger number but it will never reach infinity because dividing it by the multiplicand will always result in the previous value. There is no distinction between the mathematical concept of infinity and the physics one just as there is no distinction between the mathematical and physics notion of i, the square-root of minus 1.

Therefore IF the Universe is infinite and expanding THEN it has always been infinite, ELSE it is not infinite and is thus divisible into smaller divisions END IF

The size of the Observable Universe is a different kettle of fish - that is finite and was smaller in the past.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 16:43
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I do not agree and physicists do not agree that it was finite at the time of the Big Bang. That is what I"m saying. 
I did not say that it was finite at the time of the BB, I said that it was smaller "in the past". Take any time in the past you want, not the BB itself please, we have little idea what the BB was like. But take the universe 10 billion years ago. Do you agree that it was smaller than now? Do you think it was finite or infinite then?
 


Yeah. The point is that it was infinite "at" the Big Bang and in the past. Yes it was smaller in the past, but it was still infinite.
I don't care too much about the BB itself, we just don't know, so let's concentrate on the period we more or less know, which according to many experts is as from around 3 minutes after the BB, although to be sure we can even take the time of decoupling (when the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation was produced) which was some 350,000 years after the BB and this we know rather well because it's the first event we can actually see and analyse. So you're saying that since that moment it has always been infinite, but its infinity has been growing larger until now. OK I get it now, but I'd like to see somewhere mentioning that this is 'the current consensus'. I am completely unaware that this is the case. Honestly this is the first time I read this hypothesis being seriously mentioned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 15:12
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I do not agree and physicists do not agree that it was finite at the time of the Big Bang. That is what I"m saying. 
I did not say that it was finite at the time of the BB, I said that it was smaller "in the past". Take any time in the past you want, not the BB itself please, we have little idea what the BB was like. But take the universe 10 billion years ago. Do you agree that it was smaller than now? Do you think it was finite or infinite then?
 


Yeah. The point is that it was infinite "at" the Big Bang and in the past. Yes it was smaller in the past, but it was still infinite.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 15:02
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

There are now promising theories which posit time before the big bang

Early attempts to unify the two theories are starting to reveal some intriguing hints. Recent calculations suggest that close to the big bang, the fabric of space and time was so contorted that it flipped gravity into reverse, producing a repulsive force. If correct, this would mean that the big bang wasn't the start of the universe at all. Instead, it was merely a "big bounce", the latest in an endless series stretching back into the infinite past."

Interesting notion.
While there are indeed hypothesis in this direction, it does not make a big difference regarding the question whether the universe is finite or infinite in our eon (in these theories an eon is the period between a bounce and the next). Rather, they would reinforce the idea that it must be finite, since it is hard to imagine something that bangs and collapses repeatedly and yet achieves to reach infinite size at some point in its temporal history. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 14:57
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I do not agree and physicists do not agree that it was finite at the time of the Big Bang. That is what I"m saying. 
I did not say that it was finite at the time of the BB, I said that it was smaller "in the past". Take any time in the past you want, not the BB itself please, we have little idea what the BB was like. But take the universe 10 billion years ago. Do you agree that it was smaller than now? Do you think it was finite or infinite then?
 
@ Dean: I already pointed in an earlier post that indeed infinities come in different sizes. Yes, you could hipothesize that the universe has always been infinite, just that 10 billion years ago its infinity was smaller than its current infinity. But this is not the mainstream view, it is simply not true that this is the general consensus opinion. The concept of infinities of different sizes is clear in math, but it is not common (and not obvious at all) to use it in relation to spatiotemporal sizes.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 12:54
^ Good definition of a theory.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 12:47
Perhaps, perhaps not.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 12:32
What two theories has physics been trying to unify? Pretty much a given. You could perhaps look up the "big bounce theory". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekpyrotic_cosmology
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 12:22
^ I assume the "two theories" are general relativity and quantum theory.

(it would help if you could be more explicit in your posts so we don't have to assume/presume/infer so often)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 11:51
There are now promising theories which posit time before the big bang

Early attempts to unify the two theories are starting to reveal some intriguing hints. Recent calculations suggest that close to the big bang, the fabric of space and time was so contorted that it flipped gravity into reverse, producing a repulsive force. If correct, this would mean that the big bang wasn't the start of the universe at all. Instead, it was merely a "big bounce", the latest in an endless series stretching back into the infinite past."

Interesting notion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 11:38
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Again, we are playing with dangerous words here. When we say that 'the universe is infinite', most people understand that we are saying that it is infinite in size, 'now' (let's keep it simple and not start discussing the meaning of cosmic time). That 'right now it is infinitely big'. This is certainly not the case. Consensus is that it has been expanding since the Big Bang, and that the BB happened a finite time ago. Consequently it can not be infinite in size, there has only been time for it to expand to some certain size.
 
I'm sorry but this is simply not true. You seem to be assuming that the Big Bang occurred at a point. That's an over simplification of the phenomenon, and this is not the case. The observable universe originated in a "point", but it is not necessarily true that the Big Bang occured at a "point".
 
Sorry I'm afraid I don't get your point (no pun intended).
The BB did not occur "at a point", that's beside the point. There is consensus that the universe used to be smaller in the past. That's all I was saying. If you agree that we can interpret "smaller" as meaning "finite", and you agree that it was smaller (so finite) in the past, but you think that it is infinite now, then kindly explain how it turned from finite to infinite in a finite amount of time.
If you do not agree that it was finite in the past then you are saying that it has always been infinite. Is it what you are saying?
Think infinity backwards... if the Universe is infinite and expanding then at some time in the past it was half the size it is now, but ½ is still , further back time again and it is a quarter as big and ¼ is still .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 11:31
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Have we now located the beginning of time?
Do you mean spatially or temporally. "Located" implies spatially, in which case it is here, there and everywhere - time began everywhere at the same moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2013 at 11:07
Have we now located the beginning of time?
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