Forum Home Forum Home > Other music related lounges > Music and Musicians Exchange
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - PA Songwriters'/Composers' Association
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedPA Songwriters'/Composers' Association

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 24>
Author
Message
Luna View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 12:55
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

If only I heard this advice six years ago, I wouldn't be stuck in my bulls$%t.

Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 13:15
Now that I think about it, I remember an acquaintance of my stepdad's telling a little story of how Tom Scholz wrote "Amanda" on a napkin. And where do I remember it from that Springsteen wrote songs for Darkness On The Edge Of Town in a short matter of time? Ermm
Back to Top
Nick Dilley View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2012
Location: Mordor
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 13:26
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

@ Polymorphia: When you or your mate write the lyrics, how do you avoid that holier-than-thou attitude (preachiness) and self-pity?
There is no moral idea or personal problem that is inherently preachy or self-pitying, but examining writers you consider preachy or self-pitying is helpful. An example, for me, would be Morrissey circa Meat is Murder. The lyric for "That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore" doesn't have a bad concept. But Morrissey talks about somebody laughing at suicidal people without mentioning the joke. He says that this somebody "kicks them when they fall down" several times and tries to enforce his point with assertions instead of examples. Now, part of the preachiness has to do with Morrissey's persona and delivery. There's always the right music and delivery you can give to a bad lyric to turn it into a good one. (The Queen is Dead was much better both in terms of lyrics and delivery).

So mainly I avoid making assertions without backing them up first. If I were to say "I hate cookies" I'd want to back it up with reasons, examples, or experiences first. The purpose of a lyric is not to display an idea or emotion, but to show how the writer's mind processes certain ideas and emotions and by doing so prove the idea or emotion. 


I agree mostly with what polymorphia said. The way I would word it personally, is that if you want to make a point without sounding preachy (with socially aware lyrics this is especially important) it is crucial to describe your stance through example rather than to come out and, for example, say that the opposite of your stance is wrong or bad or stupid (and better yet demonstrate what it is you want to say without expressly saying THIS IS MY POINT followed by lyrics that could be read as judgmental). Analyzing lyrics you think are preachy is a great suggestion too because you might notice a pattern or certain words or phrases, and learn to avoid all that.

I don't think you need to necessarily make an assertion, though, to make your point. I like showing and not necessarily telling. But, you can't always do that 100%.

EDIT: for typos.


Edited by Nick Dilley - July 18 2014 at 13:28
Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
Back to Top
The Pessimist View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 14:35
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

If only I heard this advice six years ago, I wouldn't be stuck in my bulls$%t.



I'm going to tell myself this every morning. Cheers Luna.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
Back to Top
Luna View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 14:54
Thumbs Up
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 16:57
OK, I thought: if I don't put anything up here, then I might not record anything at all. This sounds like crap on a stick, so let the listener beware. It may actually help if you read the words first before listening to the track.

The bad news:

 - The guitar was louder than the vocal when I recorded the song with all parts altogether, not dubbing one part onto another, so the verses are barely intelligible.
 - The vocal melodies are crap.
 - The music is dated.
 - The lyrics need some serious doctoring. Some of the lines are straightforward, but some need explanation, and there is a line in the chorus that doesn't make sense.

The good news:

 - Hey, at least I recorded another song. There must be better ones after that.
 - Something I've never done before when recording a song - vocal harmony (for the chorus).
 - I've managed to write a chorus. I've been totally mystified for years why I couldn't write a (close-to-)decent chorus.


===========================================

Zero

Verse 1/2 (A D E):

One evening something shot a cannonball through me
And took all of my words out of my mouth.

Verse 2/2:

I'm tired of waiting for the train to work,
Tired of waiting for the train home,
Tired of waiting for the answers. ---
Tired of waiting for the end. ---

   Chorus (D G A): 
   The lone wanderer stands in the desert.
   The clock is ticking as he finishes another cigarette.
   The lone wanderer stands in the desert.
   He forgot about his past figurette.
   (A D E)
   That can't be me.
   That can't be me.

Verse 1/2:

There's nothing like liberation. I'm so 
far from everyone and I think I'm so out of s#!t.

Verse 2/2:

I'm tired of waiting for the train to work,
Tired of waiting for the train home,
Tired of waiting for the answers.
Tired of waiting for the end.

   Chorus.



Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 19 2014 at 16:58
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 20:29
Originally posted by Nick Dilley Nick Dilley wrote:

Try to see white light as every joined, fused color.
Hey, Nick, are you OK with these Jon Anderson-style lyrics?
Back to Top
Nick Dilley View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2012
Location: Mordor
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:26
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Nick Dilley Nick Dilley wrote:

Try to see white light as every joined, fused color.
Hey, Nick, are you OK with these Jon Anderson-style lyrics?


Ha, yes, I am okay with that. Especially since that was the secondary message and not the primary lyric. It was just buried in there. But if you're commenting on the imperative suggestion (oxymoron there) in regard to the preachiness discussion, than I suppose your comment applies to the phrase "try finding your way...."


But did I accidentally rip these lyrics off or something? Or am I reading too much into your comment?

Big Yes fan, but not familiar enough to pull lines of their lyrics out of my head on the spot. If I ripped it off unintentionally, please let me know which song!


Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
Back to Top
Nick Dilley View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2012
Location: Mordor
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:27
Or do you not like prose-like lyrics? That's something I run into a lot with people/collaboraters, because I really do enjoy them. 
Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:31
^ No, ... just a comment on the character of the lyric. Sounds flowery-powery.

Do you find it hard to write a lyric that does not sound preachy but more like an advice?
Originally posted by Nick Dilley Nick Dilley wrote:

Or do you not like prose-like lyrics? That's something I run into a lot with people/collaboraters, because I really do enjoy them.
Most of the time no (for different reasons, depends on the scenario), though few do manage to pull it off and not let the tone of the words be misconstrued.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 23:34
Back to Top
Nick Dilley View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2012
Location: Mordor
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:59
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ No, ... just a comment on the character of the lyric. Sounds flowery-powery.

Do you find it hard to write a lyric that does not sound preachy but more like an advice?
Originally posted by Nick
 Dilley Nick Dilley wrote:

Or do you not like prose-like lyrics? That's something I run into a lot with people/collaboraters, because I really do enjoy them.
Most of the time no (for different reasons, depends on the scenario), though few do manage to pull it off and not let the tone of the words be misconstrued.


Ah, well, I am a modern day hippie, I'll give you that. LOL Way to successfully and accurately read my personal character in the lyrics!

Now I can't decide if this means I am really transparent or just uninhibited about putting myself out there....Wacko

As for preachy lyrics, I don't feel it's difficult to avoid anymore. I used to write preachy lyrics ALL THE TIME. It was definitely a challenge for me to overcome, and the lyrics I posted here are actually super old. They come from an album re released in 2013, but the song is much older than that, and when I listen to it, I think to myself, "Ahgghh these lyrics do not represent me anymore!)

But yeah, preachy lyrics were a big hurdle for me in the past.
Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.



soundcloud.com/withinareverie

withinareverie.blogspot.com

facebook.com/withinareverie

Twitter: @WithinaReverie
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 23:12
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

OK, I thought: if I don't put anything up here, then I might not record anything at all. This sounds like crap on a stick, so let the listener beware. It may actually help if you read the words first before listening to the track.

The bad news:

 - The guitar was louder than the vocal when I recorded the song with all parts altogether, not dubbing one part onto another, so the verses are barely intelligible.
 - The vocal melodies are crap.
 - The music is dated.
 - The lyrics need some serious doctoring. Some of the lines are straightforward, but some need explanation, and there is a line in the chorus that doesn't make sense.

The good news:

 - Hey, at least I recorded another song. There must be better ones after that.
 - Something I've never done before when recording a song - vocal harmony (for the chorus).
 - I've managed to write a chorus. I've been totally mystified for years why I couldn't write a (close-to-)decent chorus.


===========================================

Zero

Verse 1/2 (A D E):

One evening something shot a cannonball through me
And took all of my words out of my mouth.

Verse 2/2:

I'm tired of waiting for the train to work,
Tired of waiting for the train home,
Tired of waiting for the answers. ---
Tired of waiting for the end. ---

   Chorus (D G A): 
   The lone wanderer stands in the desert.
   The clock is ticking as he finishes another cigarette.
   The lone wanderer stands in the desert.
   He forgot about his past figurette.
   (A D E)
   That can't be me.
   That can't be me.

Verse 1/2:

There's nothing like liberation. I'm so 
far from everyone and I think I'm so out of s#!t.

Verse 2/2:

I'm tired of waiting for the train to work,
Tired of waiting for the train home,
Tired of waiting for the answers.
Tired of waiting for the end.

   Chorus.

So, I like the line "Tired of waiting for the train to work/tired of waiting for the train home." They're actually probably the most effective lines in the song. In "Tired of waiting for the answers/the end," it feels like you're side-stepping where it doesn't feel like it should side-step.

And by "side-stepping" I mean you're describing, in a roundabout way, what could be said directly. This can work in some cases, but here it de-claws the line, takes away whatever punch it could have. If you're going to say you're "tired of waiting to die" you may as well say it directly here. If I may make a suggestion, another set of contrasting lines like you have with "train to work/train home" would fit well here, and also make the "train to work/train home" set a parallel. I suggest "I'm tired of waiting for my life to begin/tired of waiting to die." 

I'm being kicked out of this room so I'll post more later.
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 23:27
^ I see by "side-stepping" you mean me being implicit. Since the song is a rough draft, I actually wanted those lines to be the way they are right now, and I'll explain why. If I did say "I'm tired of waiting for all the answers to the universe (or to my life)/tired of waiting for death", then it's just going to sound too straightforward, too prosaic, too much like our everyday language (think Peter Hammill's "you'll be left a lonely man", which sounds quite cheesy). Plus, I actually want to take away the punch from the lines. I don't want the listener to think: "... What did he just say?! ... Who-ho-ho-ho-ho-how!!! ... Provocative." It's hard to find that golden middle between "cheesy and provocative, but honest" and "implicit, but not cheesy and provocative".

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

If I may make a suggestion, another set of contrasting lines like you have with "train to work/train home" would fit well here, and also make the "train to work/train home" set a parallel.
I don't think it's even necessary for both pairs of lines to work like two-way streets. I don't think it takes away from consistency and organization. Why put something out there that I personally feel would sound rather contrived (even if it does look neat)? I don't know what the second pair of lines could be, and why bother when I've said what I wanted to say?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 06 2014 at 23:37
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 00:05
I don't think "prosaic" is a bad thing if it just means direct. Assertion is one thing. Honesty is another. But if the line I suggested is not how you feel honestly, then I can totally understand rejecting the line.

The value of the line is found in more than just what it's not. You can do anything with these words if those words have a purpose. To me, it feels like the "answers/end" line is supposed to be a moment of direct-ness. If so, you want to make sure it's direct. If not, what purpose does the line serve?

As to the contrasting lines, that's only one thing you can do with that space. But I'm just throwing these out there for you to chew on. Your ideas are more important than mine when it comes to your own work.

I'll move on.

I like the cannonball line. I'll note, though, that with cannonballs and trains mentioned, it feels like it's supposed to be set in the 19th century. I imagine the train as a steam engine and the clock as a grandfather clock. Bob Dylan actually uses this device in "Blowin' in the Wind." He sort of traces war through American history by using a different era of imagery for every stanza, a subtle device, and yet the meaning of the song is never lost. Just something to chew on.

The "took all of the words out of my mouth" line doesn't provide a great counterpart to the cannonball line, although it's not a bad line. It just feels like you could pair the cannonball line with another that either explains or extends the metaphor. It feels a little bit like you're trying to do both here.

On the second verse, I can't quite tell what you're getting at.

And chorus. It seems like what you're doing is dissociating yourself from yourself and it works. I don't know what the line "He forgot about his past figurette" means, exactly, though.
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 01:11
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

The value of the line is found in more than just what it's not. You can do anything with these words if those words have a purpose. To me, it feels like the "answers/end" line is supposed to be a moment of direct-ness. If so, you want to make sure it's direct. If not, what purpose does the line serve?
I agree. I guess I could put a little more effort into being more concise in what I'm trying to say.
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Your ideas are more important than mine when it comes to your own work.
I don't mind outside influence. In fact, I've picked up some valuable catalysts here from you guys.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

I like the cannonball line. I'll note, though, that with cannonballs and trains mentioned, it feels like it's supposed to be set in the 19th century. I imagine the train as a steam engine and the clock as a grandfather clock. Bob Dylan actually uses this device in "Blowin' in the Wind." He sort of traces war through American history by using a different era of imagery for every stanza, a subtle device, and yet the meaning of the song is never lost. Just something to chew on.
I like the idea of time-and-space travel (not necessarily in the lyrics, but in the music ... long story). Being in an alternate, more interesting reality.

Actually, the cannonball here isn't really a reference to war, but a metaphor for feeling hollow, empty, out of ideas. I guess I've yet to master the use of metaphors.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

The "took all of the words out of my mouth" line doesn't provide a great counterpart to the cannonball line, although it's not a bad line. It just feels like you could pair the cannonball line with another that either explains or extends the metaphor. It feels a little bit like you're trying to do both here.
Yeah, I was just free-versing in a fluid way without thinking: "I have to dissect and explain every bit of that feeling". So, I actually wanted to do both here. Speaking in metaphors.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

On the second verse, I can't quite tell what you're getting at.
I keep referring to myself as being tired of this and that. Everyday life is what it is.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

And chorus. It seems like what you're doing is dissociating yourself from yourself and it works.
Actually, it was just an experiment in retelling a day in my life from two different points of view (1st and 3rd persons) without rationalizing the approach.

 [QUOTE=Polymorphia] I don't know what the line "He forgot about his past figurette" means, exactly, though. [/QUOTE] Yeah, like I said, even in the context of the song it makes no sense. I just stuck it in there to complete a rhyme. That line could mean many things.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 07 2014 at 01:14
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 10:19
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Actually, the cannonball here isn't really a reference to war, but a metaphor for feeling hollow, empty, out of ideas. I guess I've yet to master the use of metaphors.
It doesn't sound like a war reference. Don't worry. I was merely pointing out the imagery giving the feel of a different time period.

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

On the second verse, I can't quite tell what you're getting at.
I keep referring to myself as being tired of this and that. Everyday life is what it is.[/QUOTE]
I'm referring to whole "liberation/out of sh*t" part. I don't really know what it means.
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 13:27
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

 
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

On the second verse, I can't quite tell what you're getting at.
I keep referring to myself as being tired of this and that. Everyday life is what it is.
I'm referring to whole "liberation/out of sh*t" part. I don't really know what it means.
Remember the Gentle Giant lyrics "
And the freedom seems like freedom's hell" ? It's like that. There is nothing quite like freedom being freedom's hell. I have the liberty to do my introvert act and distance myself from everyone out there. And there is no one around to help me find my way in life and boost my personal growth on different levels (artistic, moral, etc.), so I'm out of ideas on how to do that.

So, if you put together these three things - "There's nothing like liberation", "I'm so far from everyone", and "I think I'm so out of s#!t", - then you have a picture with three things happening in it. Simple and not contrived.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 07 2014 at 13:28
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 13:45
Ideologically, it's not contrived. But it feels like it needs to be rephrased to be a little more clear. The phrase "there's nothing like liberation," for instance, with the meaning you've divulged, feels like it's supposed to be ironic, but the irony isn't quite as clear as it seems it should be. If you go with the "There's nothing like liberation" you could make the irony clear by saying "like being so far from everyone/ like being out of sh*t."
Back to Top
Kazza3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 29 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2014 at 17:26
Great thread! Hopefully this kicks along for a long time, it's a great idea.

Personally, I haven't been able to write anything in 3 or 4 years... maybe occasional little bits and pieces, but nothing I want to use. I do have the vague sound in my head of the kind of thing I'd like to make now, and maybe I'll try harder to do SOMETHING in summer, but we'll see.
Back to Top
Dayvenkirq View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2014 at 18:10
^ What are your musical and lyrical styles?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 24>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.139 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.