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Drug Law

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Poll Question: What is your position on drug legislation??
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rushfan4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 18:11
I kind of sit on the fence on this one.  I wrote a paper many years ago while in college that stated the reasons why drugs should be legalized.  Mainly for economic purposes of taxing the income on drug sales; freedom of choice purposes of one's right to make their own choices; public safety purposes for the elimination or reduction of illegal syndicates such as gangs and mobs; and individual health purposes by regulating the purity level of the drugs so they are at "safe" levels.  While I still mostly feel this way, I do realize that these are theoretical "positive" results of legalization.  The big negative being easier access to these addictive drugs leading to more addictions and all of the negatives associated with drug addictions.  And I have to be honest that that kind of scares me.  How many people who wouldn't otherwise do drugs because they are illegal would just "try them once to see what it is like" because it is legal and accessible, become addicted, and completely ruin their lives?  I suppose that should be everyone's choice to make but it is possible that the outcome could be pretty catastrophic. 


Edited by rushfan4 - September 05 2013 at 18:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 18:19
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The big negative being easier access to these addictive drugs leading to more addictions and all of the negatives associated with drug addictions.  And I have to be honest that that kind of scares me.  How many people who wouldn't otherwise do drugs because they are illegal would just "try them once to see what it is like" because it is legal and accessible, become addicted, and completely ruin their lives?  I suppose that should be everyone's choice to make but it is possible that the outcome could be pretty catastrophic. 


Ask any teenager, it's way easier to get pot than alcohol when you are underage.  Pot is also less *chemically addicting.

Your point is very valid for most other illegal drugs, though


Edited by Triceratopsoil - September 05 2013 at 18:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 18:24
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

Drugs are very bad for the government and should be illegalized at once!


Wrong! It's the government that is bad for drugs! Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 18:31
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The big negative being easier access to these addictive drugs leading to more addictions and all of the negatives associated with drug addictions.  And I have to be honest that that kind of scares me.  How many people who wouldn't otherwise do drugs because they are illegal would just "try them once to see what it is like" because it is legal and accessible, become addicted, and completely ruin their lives?  I suppose that should be everyone's choice to make but it is possible that the outcome could be pretty catastrophic. 


Ask any teenager, it's way easier to get pot than alcohol when you are underage.  Pot is also less *chemically addicting.

Your point is very valid for most other illegal drugs, though
I suspect that this is probably true.  I am sure that I am in a minority that has never tried pot and has no real desire to do so, although if it were legal and I could order a joint to go with my pint of Killians I might just do that because I could.  I have a strong aversion to cigarette smoke though, so have really never had any desire to smoke anything or even be around smoke.  I can't really say that I am all that big of a fan of contact highs from attending concerts.  I kind of question the "smoking pot has had no ill effects on me" people, as most that I have met seem to be lacking quite a few brain cells.  I can't say that it might not be due to excessive alcohol or other drug use however.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 18:56
Laws don't keep people from ruining themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:11
drugz, k
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:16
More prisons, more prisons, more prisons.

Fill them all with potheads!!!
Ni sujet ni souverain
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que j'suis bien
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:18
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The big negative being easier access to these addictive drugs leading to more addictions and all of the negatives associated with drug addictions.  And I have to be honest that that kind of scares me.  How many people who wouldn't otherwise do drugs because they are illegal would just "try them once to see what it is like" because it is legal and accessible, become addicted, and completely ruin their lives?  I suppose that should be everyone's choice to make but it is possible that the outcome could be pretty catastrophic. 


Ask any teenager, it's way easier to get pot than alcohol when you are underage.  Pot is also less *chemically addicting.

Your point is very valid for most other illegal drugs, though
I suspect that this is probably true.  I am sure that I am in a minority that has never tried pot and has no real desire to do so, although if it were legal and I could order a joint to go with my pint of Killians I might just do that because I could.  I have a strong aversion to cigarette smoke though, so have really never had any desire to smoke anything or even be around smoke.  I can't really say that I am all that big of a fan of contact highs from attending concerts.  I kind of question the "smoking pot has had no ill effects on me" people, as most that I have met seem to be lacking quite a few brain cells.  I can't say that it might not be due to excessive alcohol or other drug use however.


Scott, your concerns are valid and not silly at all.  I did party back in the day, and all of my friends partied.  I can tell you first hand that if the weed were better quality, more available, with no consequences for using it, everyone I know would have indulged a lot more.  Instead, it was expensive, pretty poor quality, and carried risks. 

I don't know how people can say with a straight face that legalizing would not lead to much more use by young people, but then again, these are the same people who claim it is harmless.  It is far from harmless.  While it may not be physically addictive, the tars in good weed are damaging to your lungs over time and that is undeniable.  No, it may not kill you quickly, but like cigs if you use a lot over time it may well contribute to lung disease.  I won't even address psychological issues as there's much to debate there, but like you, I have the same experience with long time stoners....you just know they've been affected.  Maybe not all are affected in that way, but some clearly are.  I have seen this "harmless" drug contribute to the woes of some people I've known.  I've seen guys lose motivation, I've seen very smart guys lose interest in life as they became more interested in the next buzz. 

Legalizing will over time ingrain the message  that this drug is safe and no problem to use, or at the least it makes them a bit more likely to experiment.  While I admit the drug is fun, less deadly than alcohol in many ways, it is not harmless and making it legal means kids/young adults will use it more, and use more of it.  That's my opinion based on personal experience.  Had my circle of buddies had access to that great bud in the fancy glass jars, with no risk of trouble, we would have smoked our asses off.  Instead, it was somewhat difficult to get the good stuff, so often we didn't bother with any of it. 

I'm not a prude on this stuff and back then I would have argued the opposite view.  I still don't support harsh penalties for recreational use nor do I support job discrimination for a weed pee test positive.  But growing up and seeing the effects on good people I've known, you have to be honest with yourself.  It is not harmless and it is best avoided or used very sparingly.  I know the Libertarian argument would be , it's your choice, it's your body, blah blah blah.  If Johnie's life damaged because he used, that's his problem.  Maybe.  Looks good on paper.

I know saying this stuff here is opening myself to huge ridicule.  But its worth it to me to say to some of the teens who may read this, not everyone agrees with the popular message on this stuff.  Everyone wants you to swallow the "weed is harmless"  message now.  I encourage you to dig a little deeper and consider your body, think about how precious your lungs are.  I've seen people die from lung disease.  I know smoking is fun, I love it actually.  I loved weed  and I loved Cigs even more(though I don't use either anymore) .  It's very hard to give up these things once you start to enjoy them.  Think about all of it before you start...you might be one of the people who can't give it up.  I wish I hadn't abused myself as long as I  did.  I worry about COPD now every time I feel short of breath.  It's a very sh*tty way to die, trust me on that one. 

ok, enough babble.  I' don't really want a debate.  People are going to do what they do, and they'll decide on their own someday whether it was wise.  I just wanted to give one man's opinion looking back. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:35
Jim, I respect your opinion, but I can say with a straight face that legalizing would probably lead to a really small (if any) increase in young drug use. I don't claim it is harmless. I say it as someone who has had not just contact with stoners and the such but with cases of real hard-drug addiction. More than one. And with enough people who have had chances and have never tried or re-tried of they did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Pessimist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:44
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:



I don't know how people can say with a straight face that legalizing would not lead to much more use by young people, but then again, these are the same people who claim it is harmless.  It is far from harmless.  While it may not be physically addictive, the tars in good weed are damaging to your lungs over time and that is undeniable.  No, it may not kill you quickly, but like cigs if you use a lot over time it may well contribute to lung disease.  I won't even address psychological issues as there's much to debate there, but like you, I have the same experience with long time stoners....you just know they've been affected.  Maybe not all are affected in that way, but some clearly are.  I have seen this "harmless" drug contribute to the woes of some people I've known.  I've seen guys lose motivation, I've seen very smart guys lose interest in life as they became more interested in the next buzz. 



This is an excellent comment. I don't exactly know where the notion that weed is "harmless" comes from. Too much Vitamin C is harmful for crying out loud... Marijuana is not just thin air. It is a toxin. The feeling of being high is your body telling you that something is foreign in your body and shouldn't be there, and our attraction to that feeling as humans is one of our many evolutionary blips.

Regarding the big dogs of the narcotics world, I would say that they are made class A and highly illegal due to the fact that you need only a very small amount to become hooked on a substance that is highly detrimental. They are illegal at the moment for a reason, but I really do feel that we come down too hard on addicts. The real issue for me is that addicts are treated as lesser people, which they are most certainly not, and also leads to knock on effects on the homeless population. I have lost count on how many people don't give to homeless people thinking that "They're just drug addicts and will spend all of my money on smack" is a valid excuse. Not only are they saying something hugely derogatory to the homeless population, but they are also making a general assumption on the homeless population that is backed up by little to no reliable evidence.

Decriminalisation making room for proper medical treatment will reduce the homeless population significantly I believe, for the above reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Pessimist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:45
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Jim, I respect your opinion, but I can say with a straight face that legalizing would probably lead to a really small (if any) increase in young drug use. I don't claim it is harmless. I say it as someone who has had not just contact with stoners and the such but with cases of real hard-drug addiction. More than one. And with enough people who have had chances and have never tried or re-tried of they did.


This isn't a loaded question, but I'm just curious as to what sways you towards total legalisation as opposed to decriminalisation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:55
You can regulate it if it's legal.

You take the "taboo" and the "can't do it so I have to do it" thing if it's legal.

Addicts will be treated as addicts if they and their families are willing and not if a judge orders it so (unless it's something specific like drugged driving) if they are legal.

The cash cow of keeping thousands of small-time drug dealers who are just trying to earn an income in huge bloated jails for the jail-police industry will fade away if it's legal.

And out of principle. None should have a say in what other person puts in his/her body unless it harms someone else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:58
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:


I don't know how people can say with a straight face that legalizing would not lead to much more use by young people, but then again, these are the same people who claim it is harmless.



This has been shown this time and time again.  If it is legalized and only available for sale by government approved vendors, only to adults, it's far less available for young people than if it is in the hand of gangs and drugs dealers.  Any expert on the subject will tell you.  When Portugal decriminalized all drug use - which has far less impact at keeping the industry out of the hands of criminals as full legalization - they found adult use increased slightly but teen use decreased, for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 19:59
I think Scott's point is fair, but I think, overall, drug addiction and overdosing would decrease. If it's made legal, over time, drugs will become less of a social stigma and information on how to use drugs properly will become more widely available and it will also be a lot safer to buy and consume them, as we start regulating them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:03
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Jim, I respect your opinion, but I can say with a straight face that legalizing would probably lead to a really small (if any) increase in young drug use. I don't claim it is harmless. I say it as someone who has had not just contact with stoners and the such but with cases of real hard-drug addiction. More than one. And with enough people who have had chances and have never tried or re-tried of they did.



I wish I could agree, my friend.  But I know how I felt at 22.  Pretty ravenous, all of my buddies were.  If there were a weed store on the corner with that fancy bud, and a prevalent casual attitude in the society, not only would we have partied so much more but we would have easily brought some of our skeptical non-partying friends with us.  After all, the partying would be "OK" by society, not something frowned upon.  While that obviously didn't mean two sh*ts to me, it did impact some of the "good kids" that hung around us.  They abstained because they were concerned that it was illegal, and they were concerned about getting in trouble.  Take that away, and make it easy to get....you honestly don't think that would matter to the numbers?

I do agree that the drug war and the employment screening war need to be ratcheted way down.  Doing so would improve other problems.  But we don't have to all out legalize and push the harmless message, thus cause other problems at the same time. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:07
That it be legal doesn't mean we would be saying it is harmless. Check how we managed to bring down tobacco use by attacking it without making it illegal. And I guess by now only 20 people on Earth think tobacco is harmless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:10
Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

I think Scott's point is fair, but I think, overall, drug addiction and overdosing would decrease. If it's made legal, over time, drugs will become less of a social stigma and information on how to use drugs properly will become more widely available and it will also be a lot safer to buy and consume them, as we start regulating them.


I think they would be abused more.  Think about how little regulation and "information" mean to HS/College kids with alcohol partying. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:17
True, but still, if there was no information available, then even more people would drink like that.
But does that mean we should try to prevent them from doing that? Who are we to decide what some college student does to themselves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:24
Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

True, but still, if there was no information available, then even more people would drink like that.
But does that mean we should try to prevent them from doing that? Who are we to decide what some college student does to themselves


I don't know man, there is more information now than ever, and I don't see problem drinking going down much. 

Two, yes we should try to prevent them from hurting themselves.  We love them if they are our kids, so of course we want to help them make good choices.  We won't always succeed, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2013 at 20:25
^And only college students.
No high school pupils, not even middle school pupils.
And, of course, no middle age people (cf. Williams Burroughs). Ermm
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