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Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?

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wowie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wowie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?
    Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:32
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

 
Originally posted by wowie

:)
no i dont want to say that. Im with you and can second your post s many others here.
i just fused my two posts and im very satisfied :D
hope you like it, here it comes:


Now i got it :D

if we say, prog rock is rock music with progressive elements, then we have to ask what exactly is progressive.

What elements used in music can be described as progressive?


One idea could be, that the progressive element can be restricted somehow.

To the „kind“ of music that were played by some bands back in the 70s.

So for coincidence a rock with some kind of experimental symphonic folk jazz electro influences.

No matter what you say now, it is some kind of that music and if it doesnt sound like one of the glorious prog gods from back then or isnt listed by the official prog publishes and social communitys, it is no prog.


Another idea of PROG ROCK or just PROG could be that

the additional composing and playing form is free and wanted

the additional song structure is free and wanted

the additional use of genres is free and wanted

the use of additional instruments is free and wanted

an additional unrepititive and free use of all musical elements is wanted


so we are not talking about EXPERIMENTAL and AVANT music, we are talking about an exclusive and enhanced (fusioned/recombined and maybe experimental) form of ROCK. RIO could be very similar to PROG but it differs in the exclusion of (NORMAL) ROCK structures in general where PROG could be open to that.


So now we have our definition, we can ask if modern prog rock isnt that or absolutely not progressive.

Rock in itself develops. So if we look at the rock in general, we can easily say it is progressive i think. You have massive rock bands that use any of the things we use to define prog rock.

They are not repititive, they use other instruments and genres and so on. You have all kinds of rock crossover acts, bands that fuses other genres and at the same time are being very progressive in their composing. And it goes and and on. There are coming more and more doing a lot of crazy things, you just have to explore - you will find everything you cant imagine. There are so many bands out there, you cant listen to all of them in your whole life. There is still repitition, but there is also a lot of development and the usual rock listener is already searching a lot for new and creative bands and they find them. They maybe dont know that this is progressive, but it is.

Best example are all the young people that listen to prog metal, and new rock like Muse, Mars Volta, Radiohead etc. This is prog rock.

If we look to those rock subgenres, that we list in Prog Archives, we can also say that all elements are still there but how much - and is this list representative of what we think is prog rock or prog music today and for all?

a) Are some bands who fulfill some kind of prog definition also very repititive in some other way?

b) How much can we progress the prog rock as a style? Can and do we (the doers and consumers) progress it?

a) can be very relative. As the progressivity also depends on the musicians and listeners background. But specially with the help of the subgenre of retro-rock we can say, that some elements of prog rock are not that fulfilled by some bands which we call progressive.

Not because they are technically bad musicians, its because the stuff they play isnt new to many others. Its complex, it combines different genres, but it is still a repititon of something that was already there. And it makes it not better if they are bad musicians.


But somehow, i would say they are still progressive, but maybe not that much then a band that is just labeled as a post-rock or indie band. And in relation to all possibilitys of music and all the elements you can use today and back then, they are also not that progressive maybe. But to answer this question precisely, you have to know how much bands there were back then and how much usage they made of the freedom they had back then.

But so it is extremely important to understand i think, that the definition of prog rock is „common rock definition“ today, or should we say, part or the problem of defining rock and mainstream music in general. And so there are bands outside the common prog rock genres, that are very progressive and maybe rock too and who are somehow, in relation to the expectation and musical consciousness of the listener, much more progressive then a symphonic rock band.


That brings us also to b)

and you should answer that for yourself!

:)


i just want to remember

It is music that does progress. It takes an idea and developes it, rather than just repeat it.“

Keith Emerson


Its more an attitude then a stringent style as Robert Fripp would say.


omhomunculus :) now im gonna chill to death!


oh btw if you still dont got me,
i think prog rock is still progressive, but i also think, that the rest of the rock and all other genres are minimum equally progressive. And that should be PROG music.
But hey, now we have PROG FUSION, maybe we will get some FREE PROG FUSION ;)




I think I get the gist of what you're saying, although I may not entirely agree with youSmile

As for B) the sooner the musicians step outside of once tried and tested formulas and make music on their own accord, instead of what many bands do today, which is aiming for sub-genres and tags before they start making music, then half the battle is won. Of course Prog can evolve and progress, and it still does so, albeit at a very very slow pace imo.



so true!!!

btw
im still editing ;)


Edited by wowie - September 15 2013 at 11:40
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:35
LOL
Sorry for the ninja move
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wowie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:37
you are so avantgarde experimental free prog fusion!!!!
true jeet kune do!!
LOL


Edited by wowie - September 15 2013 at 11:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wowie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:39
and i hope you are independent?!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:40
Very much soCool 
I just caught the final edit of your post, and I think we're on the same page, although I use my own words to explain things to myself - and vice versaHandshake
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:43
Originally posted by rainsnowwinter

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

"It is music that does progress. It takes an idea and developes it, rather than just repeat it. Pop songs are about repetition and riffs and simplicity. Progressive music takes a riff, turns it inside out, plays it upside down and the other way around, and explores its potential."


Keith Emerson[1]



Being new to the scene, can't quite get this one. I mean most of the songs on the Dark Side have repetitive parts like verses and choruses (Money, Us & Them, ...), which leads to think that the album is not Progressive music and it is Pop?!
Did I miss something here? please explain.
Uh.....that's called 'Progressive Pop'........
 
Wink
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wowie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:52
^^ lol

@Guldbamsen
Beer


Edited by wowie - September 15 2013 at 11:55
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2013 at 11:56
Right back atchaBeer

I'm going to have a lie-down nowLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 00:24
Genres of music are classified generally by their rhythm section first.  If that is absent, then by the instruments used and composition style.

Prog Rock has drummers and bassists that are more jazz leaning... but the rock comes in on occasion that gives it the rock edge that lacks in more traditional jazz.

Odd meters, syncopation and you are moving the music quickly into prog.  Throw in some Hammond Organ, Mellotron, Moog and it's Prog for sure.

Prog is a general style of music.  It is wrong to think it needs to keep changing into something else.  Traditional Jazz has been played the same for decades. Classical for centuries.  Folk for ages. 

There is a lot that can be done with the classic Prog instruments from the Golden Age.  Same stacks of keyboards, Gibson and Fender electric guitars, Fender and Marshall Amps, Rickeback and Fender Jazz basses.  Drum sets with lots of Tom racks.  Then bring in any other instruments from anywhere and blend those in. 

The great thing about Prog is that it probably has the LEAST number or rules for it's genre... but there still are rules.

Playing a steady rock beat in 4/4 time constantly is not going sound Prog for too long.

The infusion of Metal into Prog such as NEO Prog is just bad metal in my opinion.  If I want Metal, I'll play Sabbath or Judas Priest.  You listen to "Sleep Theater"......not me.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 01:50


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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 05:24
Many good points there, especialy wild with this one :
You can record "part two" as a complete album decades later when you become famous.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:34
Originally posted by Surrealist

Genres of music are classified generally by their rhythm section first.  If that is absent, then by the instruments used and composition style.

Prog Rock has drummers and bassists that are more jazz leaning... but the rock comes in on occasion that gives it the rock edge that lacks in more traditional jazz.

Odd meters, syncopation and you are moving the music quickly into prog.  Throw in some Hammond Organ, Mellotron, Moog and it's Prog for sure.

Prog is a general style of music.  It is wrong to think it needs to keep changing into something else.  Traditional Jazz has been played the same for decades. Classical for centuries.  Folk for ages. 

There is a lot that can be done with the classic Prog instruments from the Golden Age.  Same stacks of keyboards, Gibson and Fender electric guitars, Fender and Marshall Amps, Rickeback and Fender Jazz basses.  Drum sets with lots of Tom racks.  Then bring in any other instruments from anywhere and blend those in. 

The great thing about Prog is that it probably has the LEAST number or rules for it's genre... but there still are rules.

Playing a steady rock beat in 4/4 time constantly is not going sound Prog for too long.

The infusion of Metal into Prog such as NEO Prog is just bad metal in my opinion.  If I want Metal, I'll play Sabbath or Judas Priest.  You listen to "Sleep Theater"......not me.




Assumptions are the mother of all mistakesWink

....and recipes for music are perhaps the utmost boring starting point you could ever have as a musician. Just my opinion though, but you seem to be-grieve the fact that music evolution happened since the late 70s, so why even bother eh? Stick to your guns and let the other of us enjoy the "new" fruits on the rock tree why don't ya.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 11:46
Originally posted by Snow Dog

I don't care. I like what I like.
There you have it. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 13:53
Not all progressions are good.
Progressing into lifeless music ....void of feel and humanity.... is the dark wormhole most modern prog bands have descended into.  This has been aided by computer programs that take away the necessity to pay attention to what is actually important.

Why would you record music on a device that was designed to do word processing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 13:57
Originally posted by Surrealist

Not all progressions are good.
Progressing into lifeless music ....void of feel and humanity.... is the dark wormhole most modern prog bands have descended into.  

Could you provide an example?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 14:23
He couldn't... Quelle surpriseErmm

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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2013 at 22:58
Is Prog rock progressive? Is this a trick question? Is an evil trick to get into crazy semantics about what music material is progressive through and through or just Prog-related?

Oh boy.
Belhold the power and gift of BEARD! As Damian Wilson sports a beard now his voice somehow got even better than it already was. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 01:07
Example?

How about YES.  Talk was their first album done on a Mac computer.  It sounds about as lifeless as that band could ever sound.

I used to run a Prog Rock label and would get 10 submissions a week from bands all over the earth and would listen to these lifeless demos and recordings that were done on computers.  I finally realized that no one was making the great stuff anymore. 

What drummer would not want to make a Prog rock album.. could it really be that hard to find someone to track with?
Apparently so.  I can't tell you how many demos I would hear with drum machines and midi synth patches.  How can you sign a band when the most important element (the drummer) is no were to be found?

What I mean is that all the great Prog bands had GREAT drummers driving the band.  You NEED a great drummer to keep it all together and move the band properly through the dynamic elements.   Can't do that on a drum machine.. can't do it..


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 02:02
Yup, two of the most successful bands in the whole world ever had brilliant drummers.
The Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band album cover


Edited by Dean - October 01 2013 at 02:05


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kazza3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2013 at 03:28
Originally posted by Surrealist

Example?
I used to run a Prog Rock label and would get 10 submissions a week from bands all over the earth and would listen to these lifeless demos and recordings that were done on computers.  I finally realized that no one was making the great stuff anymore. 

What drummer would not want to make a Prog rock album
.. could it really be that hard to find someone to track with?
Apparently so.  I can't tell you how many demos I would hear with drum machines and midi synth patches.  How can you sign a band when the most important element (the drummer) is no were to be found?

What I mean is that all the great Prog bands had GREAT drummers driving the band.  You NEED a great drummer to keep it all together and move the band properly through the dynamic elements.   Can't do that on a drum machine.. can't do it..

In my experience, there are not many decent drummers around, let alone great drummers, of which there are very few, let alone drummers who want to do prog, of which there are next to none. I'm not sure where you get that from- the majority of drummers don't want to complicated time sig stuff or whatever, they want to rock out, or groove, or thrash around in 4/4, which is fine. Best bet is finding a jazz fusion drummer, which is still easier said than done.

Originally posted by Dean

Yup, two of the most successful bands in the whole world ever had brilliant drummers.
The Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band album cover
He said 'great', which I agree with- that doesn't necessarily mean insane fusion chops, a great drummer for a band is first & foremost absolutely solid, strong, in time, driving. Which I think both Ringo & Mason are. Ringo cops a lot of flak.
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