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Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?

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tamijo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 09:03
  1. If modern Progressive Rock is not progressive, why is this so? But it is (just avoid the Symp & Neo genre)
  2. If modern Progressive Rock is really regressive, why is this so? Its not
  3. If modern Rock progresses does it become Progressive Rock? Progressive rock is what it is
  4. Is there a heritage of Progressive Rock that needs to be preserved? NO - let evolution point the way
  5. What stops a band or artist from being progressive and innovative? The urge to become a star 
  6. Have we reached the limit of creativity in music? That will never happen
  7. Does technology restrict the creativity? No on the contrary, its just tools, the more the better.
  8. Is everything that happens in mainstream commercial music relevant at all to what non-mainstream artists are doing?  Not everything, but some mainst. reflect in sub, and visa versa.
  9. Are non-mainstream non-Prog artists (Animal Collective, Fleet Foxes etc.) innovative, challenging or relevant? To those who like them, i bet they are
  10. Are mainstream "grown-up" artists relevant? Have no clue what that is.
  11. Has the proliferation of self-release music changed anything? Yes, that is a long story
  12. Has the apparent demise of the Label system changed anything? look above.
  13. Is every modern musician less talented than those of the past? LOL
  14. Do modern musicians practice less than their counterparts from decades past? Headbanger
  15. Why aren't old musicians producing innovative music now? They are old
  16. Why don't the musicians reading this that lament the state of modern Progressive Rock music get off their backsides and do something about it? I am.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 12:14
Will try to answer Dean's questions

1.- If modern Progressive Rock is not progressive, why is this so? 

Of course it is, Progressive Rock has no relation with the adjective that implies evolution of the musical form, it'sn just a name of a genre....It may and can evolve, but if it doesn't it's still Progressive understood as the name of a genre, the best definition was given by Keith Emerson years ago:

"It is music that does progress. It takes an idea and developes it, rather than just repeat it. Pop songs are about repetition and riffs and simplicity. Progressive music takes a riff, turns it inside out, plays it upside down and the other way around, and explores its potential."


Keith Emerson[1]

Some post ago Robert gave a similar answer.

2.- If modern Progressive Rock is really regressive, why is this so?

Modern Prog is not regressive, If some artists sound remotely similar to the ones of the 70's,, it's because they play the same genre.

Modern Jazz artist have a lot in common with Satchmo or Dule Ellington BECAUSE THEY PLAY THE SAME GENRE.

If an artist plays Symphonic Prog, surely will have something in common with Symphonic artists of the 70's

3.- If modern Rock progresses does it become Progressive Rock?

Not necessarily.

4.- Is there a heritage of Progressive Rock that needs to be preserved?

Of course, everything that is good, deserves to be preserved

5.- What stops a band or artist from being progressive and innovative? 

Their will to play in a different style or genre.

6.- Have we reached the limit of creativity in music?

That will never happen 

7.- Does technology restrict the creativity?

No, neither it helps, the music is made by the artist, not by technology

8.- Is everything that happens in mainstream commercial music relevant at all to what non-mainstream artists are doing? 

No, some is, some isn't

9.- Are non-mainstream non-Prog artists (Animal Collective, Fleet Foxes etc.) innovative, challenging or relevant?

Yes they are, but doesn't mean they are Prog bands

10.- Are mainstream "grown-up" artists relevant?

Some are, some aren't

11.- Has the proliferation of self-release music changed anything? 

Yes, but it's not always positive.

12.- Has the apparent demise of the Label system changed anything? 

Of course, some artists really need labels.

13.- Is every modern musician less talented than those of the past?

No way, yesterday I reviewed a modern masterpiece by Fright Pig

14.- Do modern musicians practice less than their counterparts from decades past?

In general terms yes, because the vast majority  need to find a day job to survive and can't dedicate exclusively to music

15.- Why aren't old musicians producing innovative music now?

Some have aged, lost interest and some keep making great music

16.- Why don't the musicians reading this that lament the state of modern Progressive Rock music get off their backsides and do something about it? 

Why should they? People has lamented since music was created and will  lament until the end of times

Iván









            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 12:27
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

10. Are mainstream "grown-up" artists relevant? Have no clue what that is.

I term "grown up" artists as those artists that grown-ups listen to or artists that have a grown-up attitude, approach or image. So this automatically excludes all teen bands, Justine Blibblier (or whatever her name is), Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, Hippity Hop, any singer who's known just by their first name, whatever's fad of the month this week, any artists that release tracks "featuring" another artist (neither of which I've ever heard of), everything on <<insert the name of your country here>>'s Got Talent
"You know what uranium is, right?
It’s this thing called nuclear weapons.
And other things.
Like lots of things are done with uranium.
Including some bad things.
But nobody talks about that."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 13:07
Is progressive rock progressive? Ummm...why yes...yes it is!

Now I assume as I have read most of what has been said on this forum, that we are discussing if that the 'difference Engine' is still is running strong in Prog rock in general with such regarding factors as the use of technology in music and the role of virtuosity to keep the 'difference alive and fresh.' I've gotta say yes, where by I still feel that Prog rock in general is still very interesting, fresh and relevant. Certain artist/bands like the more modern creatures of the 21st century like Ulver, Devin Townsend, Animals As Leaders and even now NIN are still creatively pushing towards new boundaries of musical exploration. I am quite happy with what I've heard lately and I do not think that Prog music has gone stale in any way. I know some here are more traditional Prog rock listeners where the bulk of their love for music resides in the late 60's and 70's era. That's all well and good and I love a ton of music from that time period, but to say that technology has hindered the creative process of music composition or virtuosity not being as largely exsistant as it was in the 60's and 70's would merely be a matter of opinion and couldn't be something that is fact related, so I will have to skip over that issue that a few of you have brought up here, although you guys make a good argument for what you believe in. :)

Anyway. I'll stick to the question 'Is Prog Rock still Progressive by the true sense of the word's meaning, and I'm gonna have to say yes. From what I've heard or have explored thus far I gotta say yes. Is it fresh, innovative and relevant as it was 30 to 40 years ago...again I gotta say yes it is. It's just different now and I really wouldn't say it's better or worse because to be honest I really do love it all...sorry for sounding like a fanboy here but that is the truth.

To be honest though, I'm not sure how much further Prog music in general can go from here?
I think the rocket sauce may give out in 10 to 15 years. My point being I think the future looks bleak, but right now things are pretty good from my angle. ;)
Raving and drooling I leaned on his neck with a screeeeeeeamm! ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 13:09
Hippity Hop, great band name
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 21:07
I can't vouch for its progressiveness, but it really hasn't regressed any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2013 at 22:09
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Will try to answer Dean's questions

16.- Why don't the musicians reading this that lament the state of modern Progressive Rock music get off their backsides and do something about it? 

Why should they? People has lamented since music was created and will  lament until the end of times

Iván 
I agreed with some stuff you said and disagreed with other parts, but this really stood out to me. What you have here is an excuse. A justification for doing something that you know is not the right thing. "Everyone else is doing it" is the kind of logic that forms the pop stars this forum despises so much. Why whine about something when you have the ability to create a whole new genre that people can whine about? "Everyone else is doing it" is a cop out at best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 00:12
Originally posted by Luna Luna wrote:

Quote Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Will try to answer Dean's questions

16.- Why don't the musicians reading this that lament the state of modern Progressive Rock music get off their backsides and do something about it? 

Why should they? People has lamented since music was created and will  lament until the end of times

Iván 

I agreed with some stuff you said and disagreed with other parts, but this really stood out to me. What you have here is an excuse. A justification for doing something that you know is not the right thing. "Everyone else is doing it" is the kind of logic that forms the pop stars this forum despises so much. Why whine about something when you have the ability to create a whole new genre that people can whine about? "Everyone else is doing it" is a cop out at best.

No, that's not my point

I believe modern Prog musicians are doing a great work, and there's no reason to lament, Prog music is in it's best moment since the 70's.

In the last twelve years, we have added many outstanding Symphonic bands and I'm sure that every team has done the same, but people will always live in the past or complain about the past, protest for complexity or ask for more complexity, there's even people who protested because Prog artists committed the crime of wanting  to make money with their music..

Believe me, people will always find a reason to lament.

- In the 70's they said that Prog was overblown, self indulgent and arrogant.
- In the 80s' people said that Neo Prog was lame and cried for the return of the 70's
- In the 90's Swedish bands returned to the style everybody missed, and another group invented the term Retro Prog and lamented that they hadn't evolved enough.
- In the 00's people complained about Prog Metal and  the influence of Indie and Alternativeg
- In the 10's, people will find another excuse to lament

Prog is healthy and alive after almost 5 decades, has survived the crisis of Symphonic, the animosity of Punk, the Disco era, Prog haters, etc,  has grown more than ever with a wider range of sounds atmospheres or styles and buried a lot of more popular genres.

I said it before, there's no worst enemy of Prog than a prog fan.

Iván

 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 13 2013 at 00:25
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 00:18
Originally posted by kingcrimsonfan kingcrimsonfan wrote:

Is Progressive rock "Progressive"?


Regardless, it still tends to sound like good music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 00:18
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Will try to answer Dean's questions

1.- If modern Progressive Rock is not progressive, why is this so? 

Of course it is, Progressive Rock has no relation with the adjective that implies evolution of the musical form, it'sn just a name of a genre....It may and can evolve, but if it doesn't it's still Progressive understood as the name of a genre, the best definition was given by Keith Emerson years ago:

"It is music that does progress. It takes an idea and developes it, rather than just repeat it. Pop songs are about repetition and riffs and simplicity. Progressive music takes a riff, turns it inside out, plays it upside down and the other way around, and explores its potential."


I love Emo's definition, but it should ring familiar for anyone who's studied the music of JS Bach.  Bach would create a melody, then reverse it, invert it, break it up into pieces, then reunite it in a different order altogether with variations.  And that doesn't even reference what he'd do with the harmony and chordal accompanyment underneath the melody.  Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" is the classic study of 24 fugues and preludes written in each major and minor key.  The goal of the structure of a fugue is to do exactly what Keith is mentioning, and Bach is it's undisputed master.

Another composer that took Emo's idea to a different conclusion is Arnold Schoenberg.  His creation of serial (or 12 tone) composition is built on the premise of creating a "tone row" which is an ordering of the 12 notes of the Western scale.  This "tone row" defines a strict order of notes that appear - and are repeated - in your composition.  Then there are variations as the tone row is played in reverse, inverted, and reverse-inverted.  A couple great pieces to seek out for those curious as to what this actually sounds like is Schoenberg's "Variations for Orchestra Op. 31", "Piano Concerto Op. 32", or the only 12 tone opera I know of "Moses and Arun".

By Keith's definition, Bach was playing prog in the 1700's and Schoenberg in the mid 1900's.  As Patrick Moraz said, "there is nothing new except what has been forgotten".


Edited by The.Crimson.King - September 13 2013 at 00:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 00:23
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

 

I love Emo's definition, but it should ring familiar for anyone who's studied the music of JS Bach.  Bach would create a melody, then reverse it, invert it, break it up into pieces, then reunite it in a different order altogether with variations.  And that doesn't even reference what he'd do with the harmony and chordal accompanyment underneath the melody.  Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" is the classic study of 24 fugues and preludes written in each major and minor key.  The goal of the structure of a fugue is to do exactly what Keith is mentioning, and Bach is it's undisputed master.

Another composer that took Emo's idea to different conclusion is Arnold Schoenberg.  His creation of serial (or 12 tone) composition is built on the premise of creating a "tone row" which is an ordering of the 12 notes of the Western scale.  This "tone row" defines a strict order of notes that appear in your composition.  Then there are variations as the tone row is played in reverse, inverted, and reverse-inverted.  A couple great pieces to seek out for those curious as to what this actually sounds like is Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire" or the only 12 tone opera I know of "Moses and Arun".

By Keith's definition, Bach was playing prog in the 1700's and Schoenberg in the mid 1900's.  As Patrick Moraz said, "there is nothing new except what has been forgotten".

Of course, Emerson's music was the bridge between musicians as Bach and Rock

But instead of copying the music, they adapted that spirit to Rock.

Bach wasn't doing Prog, because Prog has a Rock component...But the idea is the same

Iván


PS: I always said (Half joke, half seriously) that the first prog Musicians were the Russian Nationalists,.they rejected Western Europe canons, refused to play mainstream music, and even without lyrics they told Russian tales with their music

There's an anecdote that I told some time ago, but i believe illustrates this

Quote The Mighty Handful was invited to Vienna and paid a lot of money, but when they reached that city, the palace Chamberlain said that they had to play some Strauss waltzes, Mussorgsky replied "We are Russian Nationalists, we don't play Waltzes", so they couldn't reach an agreement, Borodin offered to play Polkas, but the Vienna Court wanted Waltzes.

The money wasn't going to be given back, because the Russian musicians had reached Vienna and were willing to play, but in punishment and revenge they were forced to spend all winter playing in public parks at a freezing temperature,, but they never sold to the court.

I imagine some Prog band telling the producer "We don't play rap, we are Prog Musicians" amnd being forced to play in a small pub because there's no audience.



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 13 2013 at 00:55
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 00:30
Originally posted by tamijo tamijo wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

These days, guys like Al Dimeola and John Petrucci sprang out of Berklee College of Music in Boston, and there are other amazing schools (Musicians Institute of Technology etc.).  
Are you talking about the Al Di Meola, who had his record debut in 1974

The same.  I saw his "Land of the Midnight Sun" tour, when Al D. opened the show for Weather Report.  Jaco Pastorius, Wayne Shorter, Joe Zawinul etc.  He was sublime.  

Al was a young pup when he started with RTF, compared to Fripp, Howe etc. in 1974.  He was the vanguard of the "degreed musician," exemplified by modern players such as Fareed Haque (PhD in guitar & chair of guitar at Northern Illinois University), Joe Satriani and many others.  

However, much of the stuff touted as "prog" these days seems hardly that.  One of my favorites is Scale the Summit, young guys who burn the fretwire.  


Check this stuff out:




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 13:20
Thank you cstack, I really appreciated those guys. They're on Spotify so I'll listen to their other stuff. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 18:14
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Thank you cstack, I really appreciated those guys. They're on Spotify so I'll listen to their other stuff. Thumbs Up

You are most welcome!  I saw them with the monster prog-fest that Dream Theater organized (Big Elf, STS, Zappa Plays Zappa & DT).   STS blew me away!  Clap

They are rising talents, keep your eyes open for them on tour.  Cheers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 18:50
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Okay. Let's spin this through 180° and ask a few obvious questions:
  1. If modern Progressive Rock is not progressive, why is this so? It really depends on what you'd be referring to. Progressive rock as a tradition is not very progressive anymore. Why? Because prog musicians often just place the same boundaries on themselves as the early prog artists, and so all the boundaries that they "push," or think they are pushing, are the same as in the 70s. But, there are certainly artists these days that are considered in the prog genre that place different limits on themselves. It's only that they don't always consider themselves as prog.
  2. If modern Progressive Rock is really regressive, why is this so? The prog I was referring to in my answer to the first question is not regressive, but stagnant, for the reasons I stated. But these are generalizations.
  3. If modern Rock progresses does it become Progressive Rock? In terms of genre? I don't define prog clearly enough to give an answer. In terms of tradition? I still can't answer. I might say no, but that would exclude early prog artists. What is called prog yesterday and today may be very similar in terms of the music, but often, in terms of its origins, it isn't.
  4. Is there a heritage of Progressive Rock that needs to be preserved? I don't really see a need for it, but, if I did, I would start a Yes cover band, not the Flower Kings.
  5. What stops a band or artist from being progressive and innovative? The placing of the boundaries that have already been placed, or, conversely, the removal of all conscious boundaries, and reliance on only the subconscious boundaries which are limited to that with which one is familiar.
  6. Have we reached the limit of creativity in music? Nope.
  7. Does technology restrict the creativity? Nope. Will answer the rest soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2013 at 23:38
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Thank you cstack, I really appreciated those guys. They're on Spotify so I'll listen to their other stuff. Thumbs Up

This one is even better!  I've been playing electric guitar for forty years & can't touch these kids!  They blend a bit of Fripp, Zappa, Trey Gunn, Steve Vai, Rush etc. into one very unique and smooth sound!!  

A few guys with electric guitars & picks, no Mellotrons, no warbling contra-tenor vocals etc.  Check 'em out!  There is hope for prog, we just need some more brave young folks to jump into the deep end of the pool!  

Rock on!  Headbanger


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2013 at 09:44
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Thank you cstack, I really appreciated those guys. They're on Spotify so I'll listen to their other stuff. Thumbs Up

This one is even better!  I've been playing electric guitar for forty years & can't touch these kids!  They blend a bit of Fripp, Zappa, Trey Gunn, Steve Vai, Rush etc. into one very unique and smooth sound!!  

A few guys with electric guitars & picks, no Mellotrons, no warbling contra-tenor vocals etc.  Check 'em out!  There is hope for prog, we just need some more brave young folks to jump into the deep end of the pool!  

Rock on!  Headbanger




Absolutely talented. They make it look so easy.
I appreciate the bass playing too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thestillowl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2013 at 10:35
99% of Neo Prog is regressive and badly executed..I've yet to hear  one band formed after 1990 that deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the 70's giants of Yes,Crimson,Tull,ELP,Focus and Gentle Giant.There was something about what i call the '1947 generation' in the UK that was special and magical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2013 at 13:43
Originally posted by thestillowl thestillowl wrote:

99% of Neo Prog is regressive and badly executed..I've yet to hear  one band formed after 1990 that deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the 70's giants of Yes,Crimson,Tull,ELP,Focus and Gentle Giant.There was something about what i call the '1947 generation' in the UK that was special and magical.

¿Have you even heard?








(This is one song from a double album divided in 7 songs (4 epics))












All post 1990, and I have 500 like this ones (BTW: Except Magenta, none is considered Neo Prog)




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 14 2013 at 14:00
            
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2013 at 14:49
IMO there is nothing 'regressive' about the progressive rock being made these days and if one investigates the various types there are more adventurous styles along with more classic prog sounds. There has always been a core sound to what we all call prog rock and the newer bands from the 80's onward have merely written in that style.
Others have gone a bit beyond that to more avant garde styles like RIO, post rock/math rock, experimental/post metal, and tech/extreme post metal.
There are also limitations inherent in music itself. If one is writing in any of the various  prog rock styles then it has to contain elements of that previous srtyle or it becomes something other...whatever that might be. If it's too progressive and  avant garde , then it may become unlistenable to many and then would be castigated for being 'too out there'.
So how does one make prog rock that is more progressive than the originators of prog and yet contain enough elements to make it both likable and listenable? IMO it will still end up sounding at times like the original classic artists but with a twist and that 's ok with me.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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