Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Unsigned Bands
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Bandcamp suggestions...are they worth it?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Bandcamp suggestions...are they worth it?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
Author
Message
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 6857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2013 at 23:15
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

(...)
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Oh no! I am suggesting something because of the same reason why for example I am voting on PA polls - just for fun Cool  I dont expect any adds, but if will be some - thats fine. I am not a musician or roadie from the bands I suggested; so I really dont care are they gonna be added or not. 
(...)      You've had some fun, but the fun never started for us. 
 
 
PA is not the military formation and I'm not the servicemen. Of course I do all of this for fun!









Edited by Svetonio - September 22 2013 at 00:41
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Prog Specialist

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 17758
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2013 at 23:45
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
(...)

But to be honest, what pisses me more is that the guy who suggested all this bands, doesn't have a single review or a rating.

That's the main problem IMHO

Iván

This can't be a "problem" at all because that lack of my reviews is nothing against the PA' rules. There's not a rule that a suggester of new band ought to write a review for them - a suggestion doesn't have to be delivered with a review.
The same thing is with rating the albums. 
Also, I don't  have the talent to write esseys on the music I listening to, not even in my native language. As far as I know, you don't like ameteurism in any form and you wouldn't like to read my reviews.

Not against the rules, but for me a great problem.

We do things here because we love Prog, if we suggest a band it's because we are convinced that they shoud be here and we don't want to see them without reviews.

Every person who suggests a band, wants to be the first one to review it, you only want them to be added and after that, you never mention or care about them.

We all are amateurs here, and proud of this

Amateur comes from the Latin word  amātōrem (Lover), amateur is a person who does something fort love, not for money.

English is not my native language, I'm from Perú.

But I believe that if you suggest a band (without any info), we dig for the info, we contact the band for info you never provide, create a bio from nothing.  sometimes create photos from pieces of of other photos, we add all the albums, we take a long time and effort, the least you can do is make a review.

It seems like you have some interest in more Bandcamp bands being added and that's the only thing that matters for you, as a fact you do the same in other forums

http://www.progforums.com/punforum/viewtopic.php?id=1063

I'm maybe too honest for my sake, but I can't respect that, it seems like we are working for you because you seem to have an interest in bandcamp bands being added.

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 Of couse I do all of this for fun.

Sorry, but I don't buy this statement.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 21 2013 at 23:55
Back to Top
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 6857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2013 at 23:56
And finally, I'd like to state my own opinion on all of this. 
Simply put, some people have been depressed too many times when I suggested a nice and 100% prog act that they themselfs would like to be suggested by them, but they did not do it. 
That's the "main problem" with Svetonio's suggestions; an ordinary human jealousy...
Back to Top
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 6808
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2013 at 23:59
LOLBig smileWacko

 I rest my case
Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...
Back to Top
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 6857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 00:05
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...) we contact the band (...) sometimes create photos from pieces of of other photos, we add all the albums, we take a long time and effort, (...)
Of course you do that; after all, that's the biggest reason why you are The Special Collaborators, the members of The Teams.
That's pretty normal thing that e.g. The Special Collaborator (as the representative of the PA) contact the band and to ask the band for a detail which wasn't already published.











Edited by Svetonio - September 22 2013 at 00:42
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Prog Specialist

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 17758
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 00:55


Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...) we contact the band (...) sometimes create photos from pieces of of other photos, we add all the albums, we take a long time and effort, (...)
Of course you do that; after all, that's the biggest reason why you are The Special Collaborators, the members of The Teams.
That's pretty normal thing that e.g. The Special Collaborator (as the repesentative of the PA) contact the band and to ask the band for a detail which wasn't already published.

No pal we normally don't have to do this.

People who suggest a band, have the courtesy to give us enough information to make our search easy, we only have to listen the music and verify.

As a fact, they ask us to let them write the bio, they add albums, check the additions for errors,. etc and they (neither us) gain a dime or anything except the ´ride of a job well done)

You throw names and expect us to do all the work....And I'm sure you have some interest in Bandcamp

We do more than what Dean or even M@X ever asked us, because we love this site.

The reason we were promoted is because we were willing to help since we joined  

PA members  don't start to work because they are promoted, in ProgArchives members are promoted because they started to work the day they joined.

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

And finally, I'd like to state my own opinion on all of this. 
Simply put, some people have been depressed too many times when I suggested a nice and 100% prog act that they themselfs would like to be suggested by them, but they did not do it. 
That's the "main problem" with Svetonio's suggestions; an ordinary human jealousy..


LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

ROFLMAO: Believe me, nobody is jealous of your suggestions, we are more happy making the addition possible with research and effort than suggesting them

In Symphonic, this year we have accepted 65% of the bands suggested, all the rest except one were moved to another team who accepted them.

Our percentage with your suggestions is lower than 1%

No the problem with Svetonio suggestions is that they are not suggestions, just names and a link.




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 22 2013 at 01:21
Back to Top
Svetonio View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 6857
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 01:54
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



(...)

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

And finally, I'd like to state my own opinion on all of this. 
Simply put, some people have been depressed too many times when I suggested a nice and 100% prog act that they themselfs would like to be suggested by them, but they did not do it. 
That's the "main problem" with Svetonio's suggestions; an ordinary human jealousy..


LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

ROFLMAO: Believe me, nobody is jealous of your suggestions, we are more happy making the addition possible with research and effort than suggeting them. (...)






Not an ordinary human jealousy as I stated? then it's not good actually, because then it comes to the group narcissism as per definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_narcissism















Edited by Svetonio - September 22 2013 at 02:18
Back to Top
lazland View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 7284
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 05:34
This thread is going to end up (as with many others) as a kind of long rally that you see in men's tennis majors these days - very long and back and forth. At least they end at some point. This one never will.

I would suggest locking this and simply either changing the rules, suspension, or ignore all of the suggestions. Something positive.


In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Site and Forum Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: 42
Status: Offline
Points: 13724
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 05:46
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

And finally, I'd like to state my own opinion on all of this. 
Simply put, some people have been depressed too many times when I suggested a nice and 100% prog act that they themselfs would like to be suggested by them, but they did not do it. 
That's the "main problem" with Svetonio's suggestions; an ordinary human jealousy...


Confused I'm not entirely sure what makes you arrive at this surreal conclusion, but let me be completely honest with you when I say that I am very jealous of all the people dodging all of your suggestions. The main folks around here who've been dealing with them are fed up. Pure and simple. Now you can continue to defend your "lone gun man ways in an unjust world" - or maybe you should start concerning yourself with all of the other aspects of this site. Like fx the music already found hereWink
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Status: Offline
Points: 33272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 05:49
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


I would suggest locking this and simply either changing the rules, suspension, or ignore all of the suggestions. Something positive.
As far as I am concerned the thread ended here:
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Thanks for your assistance Svetoni, but please... enough is enough. (...) So I am asking you very politely to stop suggesting bands. (...).
I have no desire to do that by force, but I can if need be.
 


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
DamoXt7942 View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator / Psych Team

Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 9448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DamoXt7942 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 07:55
^ Hope this issue can get completed without anybody getting hurt.
Back to Top
Padraic View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 29898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Padraic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 10:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


I would suggest locking this and simply either changing the rules, suspension, or ignore all of the suggestions. Something positive.
As far as I am concerned the thread ended here:
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Thanks for your assistance Svetoni, but please... enough is enough. (...) So I am asking you very politely to stop suggesting bands. (...).
I have no desire to do that by force, but I can if need be.
 


"I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice"
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Symphonic Prog Specialist

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 17758
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ivan_Melgar_M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 13:52
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

This thread is going to end up (as with many others) as a kind of long rally that you see in men's tennis majors these days - very long and back and forth. At least they end at some point. This one never will.

I would suggest locking this and simply either changing the rules, suspension, or ignore all of the suggestions. Something positive.

Don't worry Laz, it has ended for me

We just received a band that has been kicked from Eclectic and Heavy and now it's in our hands, that's what bothers, I want to send them to PR but most surely we will have to bother the Crossover friends who are overload with work.

We can take a time, because lately we don't have many suggestions, but some teams are really busy

Giving the artists a false illusion, when IMHO that band would be PR at the most is a mistake.

Cheers

Iván
Back to Top
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 6808
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 15:11
^ Crossover sometimes ends up as the proverbial 'last chance saloon' and cos of this the PR route then lies with the Crossover Team to find an SC to table a bid to Admin. Not easy and I know there are at least 12 artists awaiting someone to motivate the bands to Admin. I think the original ' suggester' should motivate to Admin not the Team SC's as nine times out of ten they have no emotional attachment to the artists concerned or knowledge other than an evaluation. 

Also the ' quality' of a lot of bands submitted of late seems to have deteriorated, probs the bandcamp ones, which I am sure covers all genres
Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...
Back to Top
seventhsojourn View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RPI

Joined: December 11 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 4001
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seventhsojourn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 17:16
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ Crossover sometimes ends up as the proverbial 'last chance saloon' and cos of this the PR route then lies with the Crossover Team to find an SC to table a bid to Admin. Not easy and I know there are at least 12 artists awaiting someone to motivate the bands to Admin. I think the original ' suggester' should motivate to Admin not the Team SC's as nine times out of ten they have no emotional attachment to the artists concerned or knowledge other than an evaluation. 
 
It requires a SC to nominate an artist for PR, and since most suggestions come from forum senior members they simply won't be able to ''motivate'' these suggestions to Admin. In any case, it is my understanding that teams should not ''vote'' for a move to PR. If an artist doesn't fit in any full prog genre it should be rejected... if a SC then wants to make a case for PR then that is up to that individual. Of course in some circumstances a team might decide between them that an artist is a good candidate for PR, in which case a proposal can be made. But if I remember rightly only exceptional cases, household names with a decent prog legacy, will get into PR so I don't think we should be talking in terms of 12 artists awaiting someone to nominate them (only 2 artists added in PR this year). That's just my reading of the situation though.  
 
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:


Also the ' quality' of a lot of bands submitted of late seems to have deteriorated, probs the bandcamp ones, which I am sure covers all genres
 
Quality is not a criterion as far as I'm aware. If it's prog it's prog, surely? By the way, this suggestion isn't a bandcamp artist, and it is of the highest quality imo. Nonetheless it was rejected:
 
 
Back to Top
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 6808
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 17:44
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

 
It requires a SC to nominate an artist for PR, and since most suggestions come from forum senior members they simply won't be able to ''motivate'' these suggestions to Admin. In any case, it is my understanding that teams should not ''vote'' for a move to PR. If an artist doesn't fit in any full prog genre it should be rejected... if a SC then wants to make a case for PR then that is up to that individual. Of course in some circumstances a team might decide between them that an artist is a good candidate for PR, in which case a proposal can be made. But if I remember rightly only exceptional cases, household names with a decent prog legacy, will get into PR so I don't think we should be talking in terms of 12 artists awaiting someone to nominate them (only 2 artists added in PR this year). That's just my reading of the situation though.  
 
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:


Also the ' quality' of a lot of bands submitted of late seems to have deteriorated, probs the bandcamp ones, which I am sure covers all genres
 
Quality is not a criterion as far as I'm aware. If it's prog it's prog, surely? By the way, this suggestion isn't a bandcamp artist, and it is of the highest quality imo. Nonetheless it was rejected:
 
 
[/QUOTE]

I understand the PR Rules that is why I suggested they be revisited. PR evaluations come about as a result that they do not fit the genre in question but members feel they should be considered for PR. I think the person who initially suggested them for PA inclusion should pick up the reins if they fall into a PR situation by way of evaluations. That is merely my opinion on the matter.


\Re quality - You are right prog is prog, certainly. However I firmly believe that the overall quality of recent suggestions has taken a turn for the worse, this is no slight on yourself or anyone else, before leaving the Crossover Team I felt the quality of bands had taken a nosedive in general especially bandcamp suggestions. The main premise for this thread is bandcamp related so the PR issue more of a side topic and for another discussion perhaps. And I stress is in no way directed you guys for doing such an excellent job.
Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...
Back to Top
seventhsojourn View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RPI

Joined: December 11 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 4001
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seventhsojourn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 17:49
If the PR nominations were open to everyone, can you imagine how many suggestions the Admin would receive? 
Back to Top
Chris S View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 6808
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 17:58
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

If the PR nominations were open to everyone, can you imagine how many suggestions the Admin would receive? 

Good point but again I am only referring to Crossover at the moment. The process takes time for bands to even end up in PR limbo. 12 in about 2  years maybe...have not done the math on PFreak...but why this reference came about on this thread is that I feel the people suggesting a band should do the leg work like Svetonio re bandcamp. You may well be aware of how many PR artists are in limbo across all genre teams, I can only speak for Crossover when I left about a month ago. So I don't think Admin would be inundated, just a hunch, and who says the original suggestor will propose them anyway. They might have moved on from PA by the time a PR status is flagged back. And if they have to do it through an SC as in the existing rules, so be it, it will just take longer that's all Smile
Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...
Back to Top
DamoXt7942 View Drop Down
Forum & Site Admin Group
Forum & Site Admin Group
Avatar
Moderator / Psych Team

Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 9448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DamoXt7942 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 17:59
^ Yes, Exactly Chris.

Not known enough about PR suggestion because I'm a Admin "newbie" but basically PR evaluation is quite a tough work (a flood of artists have prog-ish seasoning, whilst we should research their historical background, discuss again and again, and settle finally ... with tremendous energy needed!) that experienced / appreciated members in PA (aka SCs) should taken them to AZ individually and carefully.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Albion
Status: Offline
Points: 33272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2013 at 19:25
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

^ Crossover sometimes ends up as the proverbial 'last chance saloon' and cos of this the PR route then lies with the Crossover Team to find an SC to table a bid to Admin. Not easy and I know there are at least 12 artists awaiting someone to motivate the bands to Admin. I think the original ' suggester' should motivate to Admin not the Team SC's as nine times out of ten they have no emotional attachment to the artists concerned or knowledge other than an evaluation. 
I agree that these bands end up in Crossover as their last best hope for addition, but PR is not the next option on the list - rejection is. If the band is not suitable for Xover and all the other teams have rejected them then reject them too. The appearance of a PR worthy band is very rare, and certainly should not be as high 6 a year.
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:


I understand the PR Rules that is why I suggested they be revisited. PR evaluations come about as a result that they do not fit the genre in question but members feel they should be considered for PR. I think the person who initially suggested them for PA inclusion should pick up the reins if they fall into a PR situation by way of evaluations. That is merely my opinion on the matter.
Nope. There are good reasons for having an SC nominate the band for Prog Related, least of all is that SC has to then add the band himself, but the main one is matter of filtering. We have a strict criteria for Prog Related and the Admins judge whether the nominated artist fits the criteria and that they are right for the PA, the SC's role is a preselection process, to apply the criteria listed in the PR definition as they interpret them rather than any colloquial definition of Prog related that the person who initially suggested them may have used.
 
PR is not the place for nearly-prog bands, or hard to place prog bands - if we did that PR would be bigger than all the other subs added together. If no one has ever heard of this band then they don't belong in PR; Bandcamp artists have no place in PR and it would be very very unusual for a modern band to end up in PR unless it contained relatively well-known members of existing 100% prog bands AND was making music that had some Prog influence.

Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

If the PR nominations were open to everyone, can you imagine how many suggestions the Admin would receive? 

Good point but again I am only referring to Crossover at the moment. The process takes time for bands to even end up in PR limbo. 12 in about 2  years maybe...have not done the math on PFreak...but why this reference came about on this thread is that I feel the people suggesting a band should do the leg work like Svetonio re bandcamp. You may well be aware of how many PR artists are in limbo across all genre teams, I can only speak for Crossover when I left about a month ago. So I don't think Admin would be inundated, just a hunch, and who says the original suggestor will propose them anyway. They might have moved on from PA by the time a PR status is flagged back. And if they have to do it through an SC as in the existing rules, so be it, it will just take longer that's all Smile
There is no PR limbo - either propose the band to the Admins for PR or set them as "rejected" in ProgFreak.
 
Genre Teams using the term "prog related" colloquially when evaluating an artist or band does not necessarily mean that artist or band should be proposed for Prog Related on the PA. I know when I was evaluating in Xover I'd sometimes say "sounds more prog related to me..." it didn't mean I wanted them in Prog Related, just as a band sounding "a bit symphonic" doesn't mean I would have sent them over to Iván.
 
 


Edited by Dean - September 22 2013 at 19:27


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.