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Dean View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 05 2013 at 02:11
Except that it isn't subversive and doesn't affect the music industry one bit. If these bands had any commercial impact they would be signed to those industry dictators; for many years the music industry supported poor selling artists, now the artists have to fund themselves. I don't see that anyone loses on this, the low-volume artists get to sell a few albums and maybe recover costs, the industry dictators can concentrate on artists that earn them money and does not need to put any money into specialist subgenres that have very few followers. You can't make people buy Prog Rock by putting loads of marketing money into selling it so berating "music industry dictators" for the way they do business in the mainstream is just plain stupid. 

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this before it sinks in to people's heads: stop comparing prog rock with mainstream pop.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2013 at 01:36
Originally posted by mawgojzeta mawgojzeta wrote:

Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

But artists can sell physical copies over Bandcamp if they have them


I just discovered this today when preordering a cd from a band  I like.  I was surprised because the last time (granted, a while back) I ordered music from Bandcamp, it was digital only.
In fact, the constantly increasing number of  the contemporary prog bands selling  their self-produced CDs & vinyl LPs (along with 'name your price' digital versions) at Bandcamp. Btw, that's often seen by the music industry dictatorship's apologists as subversive activity LOL






Edited by Svetonio - December 05 2013 at 02:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mawgojzeta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2013 at 20:54
Originally posted by smartpatrol smartpatrol wrote:

But artists can sell physical copies over Bandcamp if they have them


I just discovered this today when preordering a cd from a band  I like.  I was surprised because the last time (granted, a while back) I ordered music from Bandcamp, it was digital only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2013 at 12:35
All right !

Originally posted by RyanElliott RyanElliott wrote:

ultimately the choice is there for what one may want to do. Smile

The choice is there. I know several talented musicians who went to a psy, were diagnosed an obscure "mental disorder" and became happy disability annuitants ! Their real "crippling" being only of the social kind ( avoiding others, losing even their coolest and well-paid jobs, "childish" reluctance to develop poor social skills  ).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RyanElliott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2013 at 13:51
Jayem, 

I agree and glad you've made the point also of people doing it for joy. It's a match of the both worlds and ultimately the choice is there for what one may want to do. Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2013 at 08:05
Dean, I have actually read through your thread on Self-Releasing before and I do agree on many of the points made there.  When it comes to art, people feel obliged to behave like socialists or egalitarians perhaps...nevermind that in the same breath, they might trash or sneer down on pop music as a commercial product for the supposedly bereft-of-intellect-sheep.  Which is probably why some reacted rather than responded to your point.

Anyway...I agree that the abundance of choice is a mixed blessing at best.  At one level, it probably makes me lazy and content to listen to a few samples and leave it at that.  I am not one who craves to listen to 300/400 new albums every year. If I get to taste a handful of masterpieces or even just excellent works, I will be more than satisfied because I'd much rather listen to those handful of albums over and over and enjoy them to the hilt than sift through hundreds without much reward.  In that sense, the internet in general - and resources like PA - help me a lot more than bandcamp.  And you are right about how the more resourceful artists probably use these resources to spread word about them to push the ultimate transaction on bandcamp.  A good example from my experience is Renaissance's Grandine Il Vento.  They did use bandcamp to make the digital download available.  The promotion meanwhile was done mainly through their facebook page, which is already visited by thousands of their loyal fans, and some other online media.  For the record, I am happy I could get the download through bandcamp because I'd have reckoned it a 'bit' of a waste if I had had to order the CD and add another $10 for the shipping on top of that; to me it wasn't THAT good an album Wink.  

But one of the reasons why there is so much appreciation of bandcamp's model may be that perhaps the labels didn't necessarily do their job.  What kind of quality control lets Britney Spears seep through?  I like a good, well made commercial product which makes great musicianship accessible and infectious, not music that is just catchy for the sake of it and, well, nothing much else and has nothing of great value to say to me.  I understand that BS (ermmm LOL) would have had a target audience too but what happens to music in the midst of targeting all these demographics?  How much filtering do I need to do to find some pop that I might like?  Commercial or bandcamp, either which way I, as many others in my generation are often accused of, don't have a particularly large attention span.  The industry lost the plot in the noughties.  They already hadn't left too much scope for further lowest-common-denominatorization of music by the self-release crowd; there wasn't much further to sink to.  

I appreciate the benefits of a studio set up and a team of professionals working to make the product better.  But I question whether this was really happening.  In an alternative universe where it was, perhaps nobody would have been interested in self released products.  Industry zoomed in on the low hanging fruit and gave a wide berth to people who were a little more deeply interested in music because they are harder to please and therefore a riskier audience to target.  These were, I believe, the people who have now flocked to bandcamp and the like. If the industry did give them what they liked, they would buy it, no matter how much they professed to hate the industry. LOL  What all this reflects is a thirst for music that delivers an authentic experience and is not overly conscious of ticking all the commercial must-have boxes.  I presume the industry does a lot of market research but much of it seems to have been a failure at the end of the day.


Edited by rogerthat - November 23 2013 at 08:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2013 at 17:34
...Your comment is welcome ! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2013 at 15:23
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Originally posted by RyanElliott RyanElliott wrote:

 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 


It may show the best possible way, as far as money's part of the equation. But music isn't only about money nor reaching people either. You can make music just like you decorate/develop your own world, and may even want to keep it for yourself unless you trust someone else's ears and way of reacting to it. It doesn't mean you should choose that way, of course, but it does change the dynamics of it all. 

You may even feel well about the disappearing of anything you discovered and created without anybody having learnt about or paying notice, just because you trust that any good ideas will be made well known sooner or later, either through your own discoveries or someone else's.


I like you are saying, we tend to forget the pleasure involved with the creation of music, the joy of being part of a jam, even if it would be a pain on record, the joy of putting some cords or tones together just because it's nice.
Too much effort is put on the marked, the money, and all that.
Music is a free ride (your own, that is). it may be a potential product too, but first of all its a way to express something.
A wonderful way indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2013 at 14:13
Your comment is welcome...

Indeed the lone carefree retirement there would call buddhism to mind, except that a die hard buddhist would dismiss music, social sharing and money all the same, and a semi-buddhist would simply accommodate with it "on surface" like transitory things.

But of course I meant to emphasize the significance of money (linked to the importance of reaching enough people) in the creation process.



Edited by jayem - November 22 2013 at 14:19
I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2013 at 08:33
^Sort of a semi Buddhist's way of approaching the music marketLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2013 at 08:24
Originally posted by RyanElliott RyanElliott wrote:

 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 


It may show the best possible way, as far as money's part of the equation. But music isn't only about money nor reaching people either. You can make music just like you decorate/develop your own world, and may even want to keep it for yourself unless you trust someone else's ears and way of reacting to it. It doesn't mean you should choose that way, of course, but it does change the dynamics of it all. 

You may even feel well about the disappearing of anything you discovered and created without anybody having learnt about or paying notice, just because you trust that any good ideas will be made well known sooner or later, either through your own discoveries or someone else's.

I promote music on my homepage but also

Aragon (Changeling, otEdge)
Pulp Culture (EoRD, ItSoaP)
Tiemko
Tuvalu (live)
uSSSy (Kombucha)
Wanana-Bani Garden (+postprod?)
WytchCrypt (intros!; 6th!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RyanElliott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2013 at 20:01

Three years ago I wrote a whole blog-page on this subject that sadly few people understood: (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725) - that blog was written before the rise in popularity of Bandcamp but everything I wrote there still applies.

I've read the first couple of posts on that forum. There are some really interesting questions you bring into place. The level of professionalism that one may set themselves to will of course separate them from the mediocrity that supposedly would run amok. 
By professionalism, I mean that in every aspect. Being in terms of the quality of the product, the presentation, the attitude of the artists, the level of the engagement they can offer to the people that would be interested in hearing what they do. 
Beyond the Internets, the one thing I will always stand by is the power of the word of mouth. The artists that have the ability to touch people and tell their story that  will allow their art to naturally resonate. 
There have been some serious innovators out there, Imogen Heap being perhaps a pinnacle example and a huge inspiration for me in terms of the sheer level of ambition to create a stunning album whilst giving her all to her followers. I can't say I could do what she does myself, but I can certainly take the ideas on board.
BandCamp is another format to where your music is like water to people, it's available, albeit an opportunity for a better deal than most income wise. it gets the music out there! What makes the difference for those who are successful is their understanding of the 100 to 100,000 or whatever amount of people they are engaging with. 

I struggle to articulate this, but as a young aspiring artist, I have took on board a lot of what Seth Godin has said, he's a quite the marketing futurist, and his point of view I see as a very fresh outlook that embraces a lot of what artists face today. 

This 2 part video may be of interest to some. 



Edited by RyanElliott - November 19 2013 at 20:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:39
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

^ I think that nobody here is crazy that much to think that I mentioned the word *leftist* in this thread in contest of Socialism as the civil order. However, it's perfectly clear that Bandcamp is prepared an ideological soil for New Prog Revolution. The young artists are free to do what they want in Bandcamp. Also, in Bandcamp these talented young musicians are not threated as the prisoners as it is the case in many of those old-fashioned bourgeoisie's physical record labels with the target audience. Furthermore, when young bands' albums at Bandcamp are good enough, if they to play a number of live gigs and alredy have a solid fan base, then if those bands and solo artists for any reason want to deal with a physical record label, not a single old-fashioned bourgeois will be able to dictate the conditions that interfere with their artistic expressions and their arististic freedom, and that is revolutionary in this very moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 17 2013 at 02:27
^ I think that nobody here is crazy that much to think that I mentioned the word *leftist* in this thread in contest of Socialism as the civil order. However, it's perfectly clear that Bandcamp is prepared an ideological soil for New Prog Revolution. The young artists are free to do what they want in Bandcamp. Also, in Bandcamp these talented young musicians are not threated as the prisoners as it is the case in many of those old-fashioned bourgeoisie's physical record labels with the target audience. Furthermore, when young bands' albums at Bandcamp are good enough, if they to play a number of live gigs and alredy have a solid fan base, then if those bands and solo artists for any reason want to deal with a physical record label, not a single old-fashioned bourgeois will be able to dictate the conditions that interfere with their artistic expressions and their artistic freedom, and that is revolutionary in this very moment.
 
 
p.s. Actually I don't like the pic you posted above, and I knew it's a cover of some bullsh*t music. As you know, the red balls who are come out from nowhere doesn't instantly send an artwork in the league of Hipgnosis; in Art, *how* is the most important thing, not *what*.


Edited by Svetonio - November 17 2013 at 02:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2013 at 08:28
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

1) I didn't mentioned Bandcamp in the contest of socialism. I mentioned Dialectic, for some other reason, but not SOCIALISM. I said at previous page that Bandcamp is based on, basicly, an idea which is leftist idea and (or) progressive idea. I know that when it says *left-wing* that straight associate with socialism, but it's not. Actually, *left* indicates a progressivity in every field of human endevor; the term comes from the Frech Bourgois when the rich citizens who were fight against the aristocracy (what was very progressive at the time) called "left-wing" just to be devided from the rich citizens who supported aristocracy and have been called "right-wingers".
The modern concept of left-wing is associated with socialism and that is how people will interpret any comment you make regarding Bandcamp being "leftist". If you meant something different (eg class or social based, which I also dispute btw) then you should have corrected that earlier.

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

2) Nope. it's not stupid to pick album by album cover. When you in a records store with a lot of new albums, (as it is in an internet record  shop called Bandcamp too) and picked an album like that, it involves an adventure; would an adventure like that woud be stupid thing for a proghead who looking for a new album that wasching all these beautiful covers ? a conservative person's answer will be 'yes, it's stupid". Quite obvuously, because conservatism and progressivity is two different worlds.
Experience says otherwise. A pretty picture is not an indication of the music within. Dreadful albums can have great covers and great albums can have dreadful covers, that's a reality. When you chose albums by some stereotype generic cover you tend to get stereotypical generic music. 

Roger Dean covers tend to look the same because that is his style of art, that is not a reflection of the diversity of albums or artists they are used on: Motown Chartbusters Volume Six and Snafu's eponymous album sound nothing like each other or Close To The Edge. A Yes fan picking Snafu because of the Roger Dean artwork would result in disappointment.

Similarly Hipgnosis album covers have a certain interchangeable style: stripped of any album title or band name the covers they produced for The Nice, The Cranberries, Catherine Wheel, Audioslave, Mars Volta, Biffy Clyro and Muse and they could be Pink Floyd covers, yet none of those band's music is anything like Pink Floyd.

for example:

whose cover is this... Pink Floyd or The Nice?

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Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

About "un-reality" what Bancamp sell.. Well, with the "bandcamp bands" & "bedroom magicians"you can talk here in the forum, what wasn't / isn't that obviouswith the number of the artist who are sighed for old fashioned record labels who, in many cases, don't allow the artist even to upload one full song at Youtube - maybe teaser only - because that kind of the labels are working as the exclusive boutiques of high fashion clothing. No problem, but they don't sell very expensive clothes, they sell CDs and LPs, so I don't think they will survive on the market; other thing is open-minded and modern record labels who have their presence at Bandcamp and I salute that
That's nonsensical, and relates to nothing I have said about Bandcamp. Your analogy is flawed, labels are not the haute couture boutiques, they are the off-the-peg chain-stores - they are the volume producers and the volume sellers, Bandcamp is not in that market (at the moment).

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 
3) That streaming is also part of the Bandcamp's ingenious design. In my previous post I pointed out the graphical part of it, beceuse when you came at Bandcamp pages you can not hear the music first but you see the covers.
Same is true of Amazon and iTunes, your point is moot.
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 
4) Quantity makes quality. In late 60's and during 70s a huge lists of prog (and prog related) albums were relesed, just few are passed test of time; it means that less albums was released, consenquently the less 70s albums will be  attracitve for the kids in 2010s.
This is made worse by Bandcamp, not better, and the time scale where these Bandcamp albums will fail the test of time is rapidly reduced from 40 years to a matter of days or weeks. Quantity does not make quality: "Never mind the quality... feel the width" is an age-old British idiom.

Three years ago I wrote a whole blog-page on this subject that sadly few people understood: (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725) - that blog was written before the rise in popularity of Bandcamp but everything I wrote there still applies.
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 
5) I don't know how you rate the albums because I don't know you criteria, but I heard some of 3 star albums who are better than some of 5 stars rated albums.
My rating system is immaterial, as is yours. If you have the skill to find albums that meet your 5-star criteria by surfing Bandcamp then good for you, I do not have that time nor patience to sift through 100,000 looking for those that meet my personal 5-star standards. Cream is not the only thing that rises to the surface.


Edited by Dean - November 16 2013 at 08:29




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2013 at 07:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.
As amusing as it is that you presume to know what I confuse, I do no such thing. I am fully aware of the differences between ideology and reality, Bandcamp is none of those socio-political ideologies nor is it any socio-economic realities. Bandcamp is a self-signing record label without the finacial support for the artist and it is a distribution network without a distribution infrastructure. The ingenuity of Bandcamp is not the design because we've seen that all before, the ingenuity is getting people to promote it for free ... not promoting the bands, artists, albums and tracks themselves, but idea of Bandcamp itself ... selling the hope of the dream but not the reality.
 
Picking an album by its cover alone is stupid, picking an album just by reading the artists self-promoting hype is also stupid - the advantage of Bandcamp is streaming, (assuming you have hours in a day to listen to 10,000s of tracks), not the pretty pictures and the vague genre tagging.
 
With old skool record labels the odds are 100:1 of an artist selling big - what that means is there is a 1% chance of randomly finding a great album on that label. With Bandcamp those odds decrease by factors of thousands - you will find stuff you like, you may even still like it next week, if you remember it. But you will not find that one magnificent life-changing masterpiece album that you dream of finding by chance alone, the odds are stacked against you and against the artist.Because I don't care for the 2-star and 3-star albums I've enough of those to last me a lifetime (having bought too many of them because of the pretty picture on the cover), I want magnificence.
1) I didn't mentioned Bandcamp in the contest of socialism. I mentioned Dialectic materialism, for some other reason, but not SOCIALISM. I said at previous page that Bandcamp is based on an idea which is leftist idea and (or) progressive idea in its essence. I know that when it says *left-wing* that straight associate with socialism, but it's not. Actually, *left* indicates a progressivity in every field of human endevor; the term comes from the French Bourgois when the rich citizens who were fight against the aristocracy (what was very progressive at the time) have been called "left-wingers" just to be discerned from the rich citizens who supported aristocracy and have been called "right-wingers" for the same reason.
2) Nope. it's not stupid to pick album by album cover. When you in a records store with a lot of new albums, (as it is also in an internet record shop called Bandcamp) and picked an album on that "stupid" way, it involves an adventure; would an adventure like that be stupid thing for a proghead who's looking for a new album while watching all these beautiful covers? a conservative person's answer will be "yes, it's very stupid". Quite obviously, because conservatism and progressivity is two different worlds. About "un-reality" what Bancamp sell.. Well, with the "bandcamp bands" & "bedroom magicians" you can talk here in the forum, what wasn't / isn't that obvious thing with a number of the artist who are signed for old fashioned record labels who, in so many cases, don't allow the artist even to upload one full song at Youtube - maybe teaser only - because that kind of the labels are working as the exclusive boutiques of high fashion clothing. No problem (who cares?), but they don't sell very expensive clothes, they sell CDs and LPs, so I don't think they will survive on the market; also, not so many people will hear music of their new artists but ok it's their choice. On other side are open-minded and modern record labels who have their presence at Bandcamp (who promote bands and albums hence there), who allow music of their bands at Youtube, etc, and I salute that
3) That streaming is also part of the Bandcamp's ingenious design. In my previous post I pointed out the graphical part of it, because when you came at Bandcamp pages you can not hear the music first but you see the covers.
4) Quantity makes quality. In late 60's and during whole 70s a huge lists of prog (and prog related) albums were relesed, just few are passed the test of time; it means that less albums was released, consenquently the less 70s albums will be  attracitve for the kids in 2010s.
5) I don't know how you rate the albums because I don't know you criteria, but I heard some of 3 star albums who are better than some of 5 stars rated albums.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - November 16 2013 at 08:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2013 at 09:31
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.
As amusing as it is that you presume to know what I confuse, I do no such thing. I am fully aware of the differences between ideology and reality, Bandcamp is none of those socio-political ideologies nor is it any socio-economic realities. Bandcamp is a self-signing record label without the finacial support for the artist and it is a distribution network without a distribution infrastructure. The ingenuity of Bandcamp is not the design because we've seen that all before, the ingenuity is getting people to promote it for free ... not promoting the bands, artists, albums and tracks themselves, but idea of Bandcamp itself ... selling the hope of the dream but not the reality.
 
Picking an album by its cover alone is stupid, picking an album just by reading the artists self-promoting hype is also stupid - the advantage of Bandcamp is streaming, (assuming you have hours in a day to listen to 10,000s of tracks), not the pretty pictures and the vague genre tagging.
 
With old skool record labels the odds are 100:1 of an artist selling big - what that means is there is a 1% chance of randomly finding a great album on that label. With Bandcamp those odds decrease by factors of thousands - you will find stuff you like, you may even still like it next week, if you remember it. But you will not find that one magnificent life-changing masterpiece album that you dream of finding by chance alone, the odds are stacked against you and against the artist. Because I don't care for the 2-star and 3-star albums, I've enough of those to last me a lifetime (having bought too many of them because of the pretty picture on the cover), I want magnificence.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2013 at 08:10
@Dean, I think that you confuse socialism with communism what is an ideal, and that society was not implemented anywhere. Something that looks like communism is the kibbutz but it's not communism. But, back to the topic. Bandcamp managed to beat the others like Myspace, Reverbnation, Soundcloud, etc., because of its ingenious design. When you go to Bandcamp pages, you may choose an album based on a cover as many of us used to do in the ancient time. For a fan, that's the most exciting and the most fun way to discover a new band or an artist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2013 at 06:10
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
Actually, it isn't. While incremental changes may or may not be the result of contradictions or opposites, they are more likely to be the result of "trial and error" - something was tried (mp3.com and Napster and to some extent, MySpace) - it did not work so something else was tried (one-clicks such as Mediafire and MegaUpload) - it did not work, so something else was tried (SoundCloud, ReverbNation, Bandcamp). None of these were a reaction to the music industry as such, they were all enterprises attempting to corner a market share that the music industry is unable to service. (Not unwilling but unable). 
 
It is a myth that all these "solutions" grew out of the malaise of the music industry. The music industry was only interested in Napster when it was pirating their product without permission, they could not give a flying fart about Napster selling music made by some kid in his bedroom with Cubase. It didn't then and it doesn't now.
 
All these attempted solutions are Vanity Publishing. The music industry cannot make money out of low-volume artists, it is simply the wrong industry for that kind of product, (or the wrong product for that industry), in much the same way that Sears or JC Penny cannot sell the handmade craft products sold at Craft Fayres, niche Boutiques and Market Stalls - this isn't a issue of scale or volume, but of the lack of sufficient potential customers for it to be economically viable - you can only sell a limited number of hand-knitted toilet roll covers, and you can only sell a limited number of ambient psychedelic experimental drone electronica albums (I know, I've tried). This is not a failing of the music industry, but a failing of artists expectation and customers perception.

There is a naivety of expectation that Bandcamp product is equal to (for want of a better description) Top 40 product, and this is at best a misconception, at worse it is disingenuous. Bandcamp is not even a rival for iTunes or Amazon at the present, though I expect that will change as more signed artists begin using it, but then so will the nature of Bandcamp - these distribution enterprises will converge at the expense of the small independent artists (and their followers) that currently champion Bandcamp.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Bandcamp, under different circumstances I may even use it, (I have tried SoundCloud but after 13 years I grow tired of repeatedly uploading my albums to the ever-shifting sand as each venture briefly flourishes and rapidly vanishes from the internet), but I do not see it as the great music revolution.
 
Bandcamp (and their ilk) are not leftist or communist, Amanda Palmer and Pelican are not using Bandcamp for the greater good, they are not aiding any of the other artists who use Bandcamp, their sales are not funding the whole "community". There isn't even an indirect knock-on effect resulting from their use of Bandcamp. They use it to sell their products to their audience and in the process making money for themselves and the owners of Bandcamp. This is not socialism. Nor is it leftist or socialist or communist when smaller independent record labels and otherwise signed artists use Bandcamp for distribution, that is merely using it to deliver product without playing games with Pinnacle or Plastic Head (PHD) ... (or Copro or Cleopatra or Dress2Kill for the lesser known artists) ... and here I do recognise that this particular tactic is in someway connected to dialectical materialism - dealing with Disties is the least enjoyable part of the music industry and one seldom discussed.
 
The irony is that the way in which the music industry operates is far more socialist than it appears. The labels pay 100 artists to make records, a small percentage (say 5%) of those make money, the remaining 95% make a loss. The gains from the few pay for the losses of the many. The problem there is the artist that sells a million albums and grosses $10million (and netts a percentage of that) does not see that the "missing" $millions was used to fund the other 95 artists who did not sell a million albums - and they see this as "unfair" - grrr! evil fat-cats! Bandcamp redresses that perceived imbalance, now the artists makes $9million, Bandcamp's owners make $1million and all the other artists get nothing.This is not socialism.
 
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
I didn't. Presumed idealistic Cause and perceived ideological Result are unrelated - it is a connection you made, not me.
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.
Then it is irrelevant. (and off topic).


Edited by Dean - November 15 2013 at 06:26




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2013 at 13:59
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

LOL You're not wrong there Steve LOL
 
 
One day people will wake up and smell the starbucks.
I growed up in that legendary Marshal Tito's self-management socialism ( where, for example, the communist party was giving all support to the progrock bands to make their music almost 100% free of "market claims" ), and I'v been learned about all these things in school.
Then you should be able to recognise how wrong you are. There is nothing remotely lefty/socialist about the internet or anything on it, and that includes Bandcamp. It is not an egalitarian and nor is an Untopian idyll, once commerce gets involved all idealism evaporates, the popular artists get more popular at the expense of the lesser know and also-rans, this is as inevitable as the sun rising every morning and setting every evening. Even in the brief history of the Internet we can predict this will happen because there isn't a single enterprise or endeavour that has been launched onto the world wide web that hasn't followed this path. Because the internet (and all that is in it) is a global phenomenon it means that single powerful "clusters" rapidly dominate, so control of that cluster reduces to the few rather than the many. Bandcamp is a prime example of that, there is only one prefered music hosting site - ReverbNation and SoundCloud have lost the race, (see here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=91557 ), Napster, mp3.com and all the other "one-clicks" are no where to be seen - that is not the result of communism or socialism or left-wing ideology, that is survival of the fitest, that is "only one can survive".
Actually, that is related to dialectical materialism. A contradictions in music industry itself made it.
 
EDIT: Don't make a wrong connection between "Untopian idyll" and Marxism' strand of Dialectical materialism. There's not any idealism in Dialectial meterialism because the theory is based on cycling of the historical necessity.
Of course, a lot of idealism you can find in a communist's point of view, but you can not find a drop of that in Dialectic materialism where a human being is regarding as an economic unit as well. And that's why the theory is great  - and approved.


There's this great Danish book called Erasmus Montanus by Ludvig Holberg you'd probably dig big time. It's about a young man who goes to college and manages to get everything wrong. One of the things he does when he returns to his homestead is to prove that his mother is a stone. " A stone cannot fly. Mother cannot fly. Ergo Mother is a stone."
LOL yea he's out of order.
Well, If you like the books in that style, I recommend you this novel from 19th century.
 
 
Really great 'decandent' novel from 19th century, quite opposite of Marx' Capital and Dialectic Materialism.


Edited by Svetonio - November 14 2013 at 14:15
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