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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2014 at 19:38
Hello vinyl/analog junkies.

I know I really don't have to post or justify my findings with all of you cause YOU ALL pretty much know how superior Analog is to digital for most music listening experiences, but I do want to share some findings that some might find interesting. ;)
I bought the new Jethro Tull Passion Play cd/DVD boxset with the new Steven Wilson sound mixes included. In total there are 5 different sound mixes/bit depths to choose from.
1) 24/96k DTS surround
2) Dolby Digital AC3 surround
3) 24/96 LPCM
4) Original Album mix (transferred flat 24/96 LPCM
5) standard red book 16/44k

Ok. So here is my point. I did some intense A and B'ing. I played all of these audio formats through my HIFI headphones and of course ran all of these audio formats through my DAC. My DAC can accept all of these audio conversions because my blu-ray player has the option to take the PCM Downmix and add digital surround sound conversion, so my DAC can read the signal accurately. Anyway. My findings are simple. Analog is far superior to digital surround even through headphones.
Here are the differences or my findings. (Pros/cons)

Analog.
1) vocals are pushed forward with a more accurate tone and clarity in the overall soundstage.
2) Instruments sound real!!! Drums, flutes, saxaphones etc all have a far richer tonality.
3) The Bass!!! More punchy, vibrant and clear sounding. You can really feel the warm vibration from the instrument itself.
Cons--None

Digital surround. (DTS/Dolby Digital)

Pros.

Major sound separation. The soundstage is channeled off to give the listener a very immersive experience. You get hit with sound from every possible direction with a high degree of accuracy. However, unfortunately this is the only pro that reigns over Analog.
CONS.
Soundstage may sound ultra clear, but it sounds ultra fake!! Quite simply the instruments don't sound real at all. Their tones are compressed mainly cause the resolution or bit depth is running at a much higher rate.
2) Vocals. The sibilance is so out of wack. It sounds harsh and very piercing. Upon listening to say 'overseer overture' my ears were in pain when Anderson sings his vocal parts.
3) The Treble. Where's the warmth? It's so robotic sounding and once again very piercing.

So these are my findings. I should note I used all high end audio equipment to run this test. Analog reigns supreme to my ears. It's accurate, warm and inviting to what the original recoding or pressing has to offer, so to all of you vinyl appreciators out there I say KEEP YOUR RECORDS! But again, most of you already know this but I thought I would share my findings because there really is a night and day difference. I'm just thankful that I'm listening to music the way it was intended from the artists vision/sound reproduction.

I Also wanna say I did one more A/B test. Now I'm mentioning this because I know vinyl records are quite expensive nowadays, but there is an alternative to make your CDs sound like a vinyl record. Investing in a high end DAC and amplifier for your headphones or speakers will make your CDs sound like 180g vinyl pressing. It is very accurate if you get the right gear of course. Long story short. I couldn't hear a difference. A slight bit of crackling hear and there from the record, but that's probably because his player isn't crazy high end like yours CATCHER 10. :)

Anyway. It was a lot of fun conducting these tests and after careful listening I can honestly say I'm pro ANALOG.
Digital technologies still have their place, especially for movie watching and some music concert DVDs, but as far as straight listening goes Analog really kicks the pants out of digital.

Happy listening.
I
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Catcher10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 16:04
Nice review Nick! I don't have the ability to play/hear 5.1/DTS so on as my BRP is upstairs and 100% used for watching BR movies.

I am interested in the vinyl issue of A Passion Play, since pretty much all SW has remixed is amazing!

In the box set it does specify that SW remixed from the original analog tapes?
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 21:45
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Nice review Nick! I don't have the ability to play/hear 5.1/DTS so on as my BRP is upstairs and 100% used for watching BR movies.

I am interested in the vinyl issue of A Passion Play, since pretty much all SW has remixed is amazing!

In the box set it does specify that SW remixed from the original analog tapes?


Thanks Catch!!

I feel fortunate to have been able to get a better understanding of the main differences. I owe everything to my new rig for that. :)
The Tull boxset is literally an audiophile wet dream. You can't ask for more, and to answer your question the 16 track analog tapes were procured with ease and Wilson even included the original 1973 mix in all its authentication. Tape hiss included, but the to tonality of the instruments is so warm and real it blows my mind. It's my favourite mix, especially since it was done in a FLAT EQ transfer. Wilson is a pretty good engineer. I've got a huge amount of respect for him and I love how he is restoring all these classic albums with the good intention of staying true to the original pressing.
He is definitely along with Alan Parsons, as one of the best in the business.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 22:45
Thanks......I do plan to purchase it. My list is getting too long, ughhh!
But its vinyl!!!
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2014 at 16:24
Amazing, is what first came to my mind....I never had the original 1994 vinyl single LP issue.
This full length dbl vinyl is glorious, as you can see from the picture it is a high quality high gloss finish gatefold, even the sleeves are high gloss finish.
The decay of Gilmour's vocals are soooo nice and Mason's drumming is excellent, no need to discuss the guitar playing...and Wright is perfect.
This mix from original analogue tapes is an amazing tribute to the sound of Pink Floyd on vinyl, wonderful sound and Marooned is glorious!

      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2014 at 19:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Amazing, is what first came to my mind....I never had the original 1994 vinyl single LP issue.
This full length dbl vinyl is glorious, as you can see from the picture it is a high quality high gloss finish gatefold, even the sleeves are high gloss finish.
The decay of Gilmour's vocals are soooo nice and Mason's drumming is excellent, no need to discuss the guitar playing...and Wright is perfect.
This mix from original analogue tapes is an amazing tribute to the sound of Pink Floyd on vinyl, wonderful sound and Marooned is glorious!



Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Amazing, is what first came to my mind....I never had the original 1994 vinyl single LP issue.
This full length dbl vinyl is glorious, as you can see from the picture it is a high quality high gloss finish gatefold, even the sleeves are high gloss finish.
The decay of Gilmour's vocals are soooo nice and Mason's drumming is excellent, no need to discuss the guitar playing...and Wright is perfect.
This mix from original analogue tapes is an amazing tribute to the sound of Pink Floyd on vinyl, wonderful sound and Marooned is glorious!



Absolutely....simply....Stunning!!!! Beautiful.

I bet those EPOS are getting a solid workout. Run those Blue-Jean cables dry. :)

You know, The Division Bell is one of those albums that I believe has achieved pure, sonic perfection. It is lavishly produced and the music is just so damn accessible to my ears that I don't even have to think. It's a winner.
Drive that analog warmth my friend. Enjoy.
I don't really think I'm gonna by the 20th anniversary boxset of this.
The album alone is enough for me.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 10:10
^ I played it twice thru, at moderate levels and then pushed some the next time. Fantastic is my opinion.

      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 10:12
And as you know Nick....I can't wait for this to come out in October!!

      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 18:28
^ yes indeed - I'm totally eager too.
And with Division Bell, I have the original '94 pressing on transluscent ice-mint blue vinyl. The cover is lavish too, but it's a single LP, and they've edited several songs - Marooned being one of them, and High Hopes gets chopped by almost 2 minutes (only about 7 min long on this pressing, Marooned being a bit over 4 mins long). There is one or two other tracks which have been docked as well. It clocks in at around 58 minutes, as opposed to the 63 (or whatever it is) of the CD version.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2014 at 22:37
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ yes indeed - I'm totally eager too.
And with Division Bell, I have the original '94 pressing on transluscent ice-mint blue vinyl. The cover is lavish too, but it's a single LP, and they've edited several songs - Marooned being one of them, and High Hopes gets chopped by almost 2 minutes (only about 7 min long on this pressing, Marooned being a bit over 4 mins long). There is one or two other tracks which have been docked as well. It clocks in at around 58 minutes, as opposed to the 63 (or whatever it is) of the CD version.


Yea the new vinyl version is all full length songs...
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 12:56
I prefer leather Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2014 at 21:43
^ I've never heard the leather edition, must be supple and luxuriant, textural and cool.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 18:56
I don't use Twitter...but Steven Wilson tweeted the follow up to TRTRTS will be out early 2015, comprised of the same musicians. Recording starting this month.

And we all know Steven Wilson is a vinyl enthusiast, so expect another fantastic vinyl edition by him.
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 20:33
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

And as you know Nick....I can't wait for this to come out in October!!



And reserved copies are even better. :)
That album is #1 for 2014 for me thus far.
I voted for it on the Prog awards.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 20:36
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ I've never heard the leather edition, must be supple and luxuriant, textural and cool.....


Na my friend. Just sounds cold.
Threshold still have all the goods that makes them one of the best classic rock/Prog metal bands in the world. 2014's For The Journey is worth a serious listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 21:26
A wonderful experience...no doubt

      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2014 at 00:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I don't use Twitter...but Steven Wilson tweeted the follow up to TRTRTS will be out early 2015, comprised of the same musicians. Recording starting this month. 

And we all know Steven Wilson is a vinyl enthusiast, so expect another fantastic vinyl edition by him.

Hate to sound cynical, but Steven Wilson described himself as a 5.1 enthusiast who works to elevate digital processing into an art form in its own right. He also noted that he doesn't (know how to) work with analog mastering equipment. 

So, his vinyl efforts may well be about coercing vinyl enthusiasts into buying a $50.00 record instead of a $9.99 CD, while blissfully ignoring all the D's that precede the lonely A in the SPARS formula. 

I have had maybe a dozen Wilson records (incl. PT, Storm Corrosion, Blackfield and Bass Communion) on vinyl and they are all gone now (the CD's are not).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:52
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I don't use Twitter...but Steven Wilson tweeted the follow up to TRTRTS will be out early 2015, comprised of the same musicians. Recording starting this month.</span>
<br style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">And we all know Steven Wilson is a vinyl enthusiast, so expect another fantastic vinyl edition by him.
</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Hate to sound cynical, but Steven Wilson described himself as a 5.1 enthusiast who works to elevate digital processing into an art form in its own right. He also noted that he doesn't (know how to) work with analog mastering equipment.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">So, his vinyl efforts may well be about coercing vinyl enthusiasts into buying a $50.00 record instead of a $9.99 CD, while blissfully ignoring all the D's that precede the lonely A in the SPARS formula.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">I have had maybe a dozen Wilson records (incl. PT, Storm Corrosion, Blackfield and Bass Communion) on vinyl and they are all gone now (the CD's are not).


He is one of the best at mastering for digital and yes his 5.1 releases are excellent. He records all in digital, which he should since this is the best method today. But he also does an exceptional job of mastering for vinyl as well as digital releases, or he overseas the downstream mastering since he is always so involved in the whole process.

Me calling him a "vinyl enthusiast" does not mean he does things in the analog world. It means he knows there are legions of fans that appreciate him releasing vinyl versions of almost everything he does. I have read an interview, it was an old one, where he describes the reason for vinyl issues is because the CD took away the feeling of owning something tangible, feels like you own a pc of software on a disc and not music....I will search for that interview and post it.

I also am not saying he prefers one over the other, I have no knowledge of what he personally likes, I have never met him before...

As far as price, nobody coerces me into buying anything, that is silly...if he ONLY released a 5.1 version of his music and charged $100 for the CD/DVD box set and nothing else, people would buy it...its great music. But he does not do that, he offers many choices.

We like vinyl on this thread!!!    

Have a great day!
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:58
Found the interview...here is the bit I was talking about.

Porcupine Tree records now sell in huge numbers, but it has taken two decades of hard work to win what Steven calls a slow war of attrition. What's impressive is that, despite being largely overlooked by the mainstream music press, the band are actually selling more records than ever before, even at a time when downloads are killing record sales. It seems that Steven's success is all about providing a superior experience through his music, product packaging and live shows. "The people who listen to my music know that I'm not going to release something just to be commercial or get on the radio. I release records that I believe in, and if you do that, people trust your motives are genuine, so even if they don't always like the music, they're still prepared to listen. Now that progressive rock is no longer a dirty word, we are starting to get more media coverage, but for years it was just people telling their friends. It was never planned or contrived.

"A lot of people are taking music as free downloads, but our following has gone up so much that it creates the illusion that we're not suffering. We're in an age where there isn't this perception that you should have to pay for recorded music, but it's a shame for several reasons. The main thing is that there is no commitment to quality of experience any more, and by that I mean that people are listening to MP3s without artwork. This is the history of the human race convenience always wins over quality of experience.

Fighting back, one of Steven's strategies has been to release a large number of limited‑edition products with special packaging, all of which are snapped up by fans. These include DVDs with visuals produced by his filmmaker friend Lasse Hoile, elaborately packaged, limited‑edition books and coloured heavy vinyl editions, as well as Digipak, Digibook and mini‑LP CD releases, all given a consistent visual style by designer Carl Glover. The perfect example of this approach is Steven's ambitious solo album project, Insurgentes, initially released in 2009 as a limited deluxe edition of 4000 10‑inch hardback books containing 120 pages of images and a choice of either four audio CD/DVDs, or four 10‑inch vinyl discs. The expensive packaging paid off, with all copies selling out in advance.

"If you give people something to treasure, they are more inclined to invest their money, reasons Steven. "The thing about vinyl is that it has an aesthetic quality, like a piece of art, and that's what CD did away with. But vinyl is something really beautiful you can hold and cherish. It makes you feel like you own a piece of art, and good music is art so it should be presented as such. Having generic CDs in crystal cases with four‑page booklets stuffed inside is more like owning a piece of software, so we are seeing the death of generic cases and a return to music presented with beautifully elaborate, aesthetically pleasing artwork, with gatefold sleeves, cutouts and inserts. One of the first albums I bought was ELO's Out Of The Blue, which came with a spaceship you had to assemble. It was cheesy but fun. Record companies have been forced to look at those things to keep people buying physical products.

Steven is unusual in that he takes responsibility for all the decisions regarding the packaging of his work, insisting that the label's input on such matters is zero. "Record companies are more open to ideas than they used to be, but the special packaging and books come from me, Lasse and Carl. Record companies think I'm crazy when I say 'Can I have this kind of paper?', because they've never had an artist do that, but they are realising that it is not just my silly little self‑indulgence: these are things that fans really care about, and that kind of attention to detail makes it easier to sell physical products.
      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2014 at 15:08
Cool....just ordered my copy. V on "v"inyl.....should be good.

http://www.radiantrecords.com/products/505-spocks-beard-v-on-vinyl.aspx



Edited by Catcher10 - August 08 2014 at 15:09
      
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