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Why not more ratings for Gentle Giant albums?

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    Posted: December 02 2013 at 11:44
Around here neither people my generation (born in 1988) or my parents' (both born in 1950) are anywhere as familiar with Gentle Giant as with Genesis, JT, Yes etc. I'd put GG on the same "major cult band" level of popularity as Hawkwind, Magma, VdGG etc.

It would not surprise me if GG were way more popular in the UK/US than on the Continent, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:30
Based on responses from this thread I would say GG were more well known in the US than in Europe. That would also be the case with Renaissance as far as I know and probably also Nektar. However, VDGG were more well known in Europe. Actually even Genesis were much bigger in Europe in the seventies(ie as a prog band)than they were in the US. A lot of it boils down to exposure such as radio airplay, concerts booked etc etc.

I'm hoping maybe this thread will cause an increase in the GG ratings on here. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Xonty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:36
I have rated their albums (no reviews yet though), but I don't own any of them. And in my opinion, I don't think they're as good as King Crimson or ELP, but I agree that they should get more notice Smile Still a very good and important progressive band - plus I love The Power And The Glory. I've only heard it a couple of times, but I know that I'll probably get much more out of it after a few more (as with most albums in the Eclectic Prog section Smile), so I reckon that I'll be buying that one pretty soon Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:38
Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

Originally posted by Gerinski

 
Your 'typically' is very atypical. Perhaps some sites say so in retrospect, but GG would have never been listed as big five in the 70's. GG bigger than Oldfield, Camel, Tull, Renaissance, all the Canterbury guys, VdGG, Supertramp etc? are you kidding?


Absolutely not. GG had an album "free hand" which made it to number 48 which is more than I can say for any of the bands you mentioned except for maybe Supertramp. 

Um,  Tull????  Come on, Aqualung got to no.7 in the US and TAAB hit no.1.  Oldfield - Tubular Bells hit no.3.  Renaissance's Live At Carnegie Hall charted at no.46 so even they managed to just about best Gentle Giant in that regard.  I get that you love Gentle Giant and i do as well but there is surely no need to misrepresent charting stats, of all things.


Dude, I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. Oldfield only had one gold album in the US. Worldwide it sold more but then again Oldfield is not a band now is he? I was focusing more on VDGG, Canterbury etc.

More than that I only brought up album sales because some of you were focusing on that. Also no need for the bold type. It's quite unnecessary.

I am going mostly by reputation in prog circles. I stand by my original big five or big six comments. GG is in and ELP are out(unless you go purely by album sales which is silly).


Ultimately, I feel a lot of it boils down to the members of this site. The vast number of younger members on here can give a certain band the impression that they are less popular or influential than they really are. Other sites have more older members so certain bands are respected more and other bands less where as on here you might think some of these tech metal bands or Dream Theater or whoever are the best thing to happen since sliced bread.

I won't take any of this too seriously because like I said I just believe it has to do with the nature of this particular website. For example, I've also noticed relatively few ratings for Happy the Man. HTM are often considered the most influential and important US prog band. I personally would give that accolade to Kansas but HTM would be number two for sure. There is only 100 ratings for their first and 118 for Crafty Hands. Yet IQ, Haken, Pendragon, Riverside, Beardfish, Phideaux, etc etc have over two hundred ratings. It's just not right I tell you. HTM along with probably a lot of other older bands have obviously been buried in the past. GG not as much but still to some degree. My point being I guess is that prog just like any other popular music form is dominated by what's hot and what's new(in other words the flavor of the week). The exceptions ofcourse are the most obvious bands like YES, GENESIS, PF etc.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 02 2013 at 12:52
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:48
Originally posted by Xonty

I have rated their albums (no reviews yet though), but I don't own any of them. And in my opinion, I don't think they're as good as King Crimson or ELP, but I agree that they should get more notice Smile Still a very good and important progressive band - plus I love The Power And The Glory. I've only heard it a couple of times, but I know that I'll probably get much more out of it after a few more (as with most albums in the Eclectic Prog section Smile), so I reckon that I'll be buying that one pretty soon Tongue
WAT!? You've rated their albums but don't own any!? You "love" Power & Glory but have only heard it a couple of times!?

Make a mockery of the PA why don'tcha. Disapprove


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 12:53
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller



I'm hoping maybe this thread will cause an increase in the GG ratings on here. ;)
I'm hoping it doesn't. They are rated just fine and they are rated by the right kind of people and in the right kind of numbers. The number of ratings reflects their actual popularity, which it seems is vastly different to your assumptions of their populariyt. Last thing we need to do is encourage people to listen to something they probably won't like and will rate down accordingly.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 13:05
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Xonty

I have rated their albums (no reviews yet though), but I don't own any of them. And in my opinion, I don't think they're as good as King Crimson or ELP, but I agree that they should get more notice Smile Still a very good and important progressive band - plus I love The Power And The Glory. I've only heard it a couple of times, but I know that I'll probably get much more out of it after a few more (as with most albums in the Eclectic Prog section Smile), so I reckon that I'll be buying that one pretty soon Tongue
WAT!? You've rated their albums but don't own any!? You "love" Power & Glory but have only heard it a couple of times!?

Make a mockery of the PA why don'tcha. Disapprove

He rated the recently released 22 cd King Crimson Road to Red with 5 stars so he must know what he is talking about. Gee whiz.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 13:20
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller



I'm hoping maybe this thread will cause an increase in the GG ratings on here. ;)
I'm hoping it doesn't. They are rated just fine and they are rated by the right kind of people and in the right kind of numbers. The number of ratings reflects their actual popularity, which it seems is vastly different to your assumptions of their populariyt. Last thing we need to do is encourage people to listen to something they probably won't like and will rate down accordingly.


Bullsh*t! The number of ratings only represents how the kiddies on this site feel about them. Tongue

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but unless you agree with me you'll never be right. Wink

Oh and why do you assume they won't like them? You don't speak for everyone on here. I guess you think you do because you are a site administrator. Ooooooh.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 02 2013 at 13:22
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Post Options Post Options   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 14:55
I'm hoping there was some irony in Dean's commentsSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 15:12
Originally posted by richardh

I'm hoping there was some irony in Dean's commentsSmile

Wouldn't bet too much money on it, old chap!LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 16:03
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller



I'm hoping maybe this thread will cause an increase in the GG ratings on here. ;)
I'm hoping it doesn't. They are rated just fine and they are rated by the right kind of people and in the right kind of numbers. The number of ratings reflects their actual popularity, which it seems is vastly different to your assumptions of their populariyt. Last thing we need to do is encourage people to listen to something they probably won't like and will rate down accordingly.


Bullsh*t! The number of ratings only represents how the kiddies on this site feel about them. Tongue

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but unless you agree with me you'll never be right. Wink

Oh and why do you assume they won't like them? You don't speak for everyone on here. I guess you think you do because you are a site administrator. Ooooooh.
While you insist on referring to  members of this site as "kiddies" I will never agree with you, nor will I ever want to.
 
I don't presume to speak for anyone other than myself, and I assume nothing. My status as Administrator has no bearing on this and I politely request that you refrain from using my status against me at all. Ever. If I post on the forum in a non-Admin capacity then I am not posting as an Admin. I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp but that is the reality: if the topic is related to the site administration or I am actively involved in forum moderation then I am posting in my Admin role, everything else I'm just me - a highly opinionated 56 year old Prog fan with mild attitude issues and a facetious sense of humour.

Experience has taught me that you cannot predict anything with any degree of accuracy on this site so I do know that if you draw attention to a band you cannot guarantee that the response you get will necessarily be positive, especially if that increased attention causes one or two of their albums to gain a few places on the Top 100, thus displacing someone else's favourite band/album. Just look through the forum at the number of posts expressing incredulity that a certain album is or is not in the Top 100, much like this one in fact.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 16:53
Na na na na na na na na na na na na (I'm not listening to you....I have my fingers in my ears). See I can be a kiddie too. Smile

Anyway, you tell people not to do something like listen to a band like oh I don't know Gentle Giant and what will they do? They'll go and listen to it. It's like when a parent tells his kids not to do something and what do they do when their parent isn't around? That's why you have under age drinking, smoking etc etc.

Trust me GG are nothing compared to Magma or some other stuff. If I was going to pick a band that is really hard to get into it would not be GG(although I suppose it depends on the album)but rather Magma or Univers Zero. GG is easy to listen to compared to them or other stuff.


As for your comments about being an administrator well you can never not be one if that's what you are(unless you resigned). It's like an off duty cop. I'm not holding it against you but if you state things a certain way.........I wasn't even going to bring it up again but since you did I'll address it.  Also, you can't control what other people do(especially not me). If you are in a site and it says you are an administrator then that is your job. See I just brought it up again. I guess you have to ban me now. Big smile


Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 02 2013 at 17:06
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 17:07
Piss off.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 17:08
So professional. ConfusedMaybe you should be demoted.  Smile

Edited by Prog_Traveller - December 02 2013 at 17:11
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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 18:04
Trust me, Dean we would miss, you not so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ghost_of_morphy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 18:39
Originally posted by timothy leary

Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Xonty

I have rated their albums (no reviews yet though), but I don't own any of them. And in my opinion, I don't think they're as good as King Crimson or ELP, but I agree that they should get more notice Smile Still a very good and important progressive band - plus I love The Power And The Glory. I've only heard it a couple of times, but I know that I'll probably get much more out of it after a few more (as with most albums in the Eclectic Prog section Smile), so I reckon that I'll be buying that one pretty soon Tongue
WAT!? You've rated their albums but don't own any!? You "love" Power & Glory but have only heard it a couple of times!?

Make a mockery of the PA why don'tcha. Disapprove

He rated the recently released 22 cd King Crimson Road to Red with 5 stars so he must know what he is talking about. Gee whiz.

LOL.  Who has even had time to listen to that all the way through?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:16
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

Originally posted by rogerthat

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

Originally posted by Gerinski

 
Your 'typically' is very atypical. Perhaps some sites say so in retrospect, but GG would have never been listed as big five in the 70's. GG bigger than Oldfield, Camel, Tull, Renaissance, all the Canterbury guys, VdGG, Supertramp etc? are you kidding?


Absolutely not. GG had an album "free hand" which made it to number 48 which is more than I can say for any of the bands you mentioned except for maybe Supertramp. 

Um,  Tull????  Come on, Aqualung got to no.7 in the US and TAAB hit no.1.  Oldfield - Tubular Bells hit no.3.  Renaissance's Live At Carnegie Hall charted at no.46 so even they managed to just about best Gentle Giant in that regard.  I get that you love Gentle Giant and i do as well but there is surely no need to misrepresent charting stats, of all things.


Dude, I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. Oldfield only had one gold album in the US. Worldwide it sold more but then again Oldfield is not a band now is he? I was focusing more on VDGG, Canterbury etc.

More than that I only brought up album sales because some of you were focusing on that. Also no need for the bold type. It's quite unnecessary.



I had to use the bold type because you rebutted him pretty strongly "Absolutely not" and went on to cite artists who have had albums that charted higher than GG's Free Hand (or any other GG album).  Oldfield, Tull were in Gerinski's list.  If you only intended to focus on VDGG and Canterbury, you could say so instead of that sentence of yours which I quoted which claims GG charted higher than all of those artists except Supertramp. I have only shown that statement to be incorrect, sorry about that.  Tongue I agree that album sales are not particularly important anyway (though they did influence who made up the Bix Five/Six whether we like it or not).  All the more reason why there is no need to play down the commercial success of other artists to push up GG a notch.  


Edited by rogerthat - December 02 2013 at 19:27
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:25
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

 
I am going mostly by reputation in prog circles. I stand by my original big five or big six comments. GG is in and ELP are out(unless you go purely by album sales which is silly).


Er, ELP are the most influential prog rock band behind Pink Floyd and King Crimson and maybe Yes and Tull equal them in influence, that's it.  GG is not in the frame at all.  PF, KC, ELP, Yes and Tull make up the big five but since some prog rock fans hate to see PF called prog or just hate the band straight up, they exclude PF and insert Genesis, which would only figure behind these bands. Anyway, carry on, whatever floats your boat. Wink


Originally posted by Prog_Traveller

 Ultimately, I feel a lot of it boils down to the members of this site. The vast number of younger members on here can give a certain band the impression that they are less popular or influential than they really are. Other sites have more older members so certain bands are respected more and other bands less where as on here you might think some of these tech metal bands or Dream Theater or whoever are the best thing to happen since sliced bread.


That would account for the popularity of Dream Theater but not for that of Yes, Floyd, Genesis, JT, ELP or KC.  These are the bands that outdid GG in influence, popularity, sales, etc even in the 70s.  Even Gabriel-led Genesis did better, their most ambitious Lamb Lies Down on Broadway getting to no.41. The follow up Trick of the Tail performed even better, getting to no.31.  And that was still a prog album and still before Genesis went pop.   You mentioned Kansas.  Once the second generation bands like Kansas and Rush arrived, even they gained more popularity than Gentle Giant.  All of which does not surprise me at all. 



Edited by rogerthat - December 02 2013 at 19:28
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 19:46
Originally posted by richardh

I'm hoping there was some irony in Dean's commentsSmile
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prog_Traveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2013 at 20:07
Originally posted by timothy leary

Trust me, Dean we would miss, you not so much.


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