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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2015 at 02:05
^ We do not know if the 'banking principle' can be invoked to explain the creation of the Universe itself, but it is a real property WITHIN our Universe. In our Universe, equal-valued positive + negative manifestations of energy can (and do) indeed pop up out of nothing. No energy is required for this to happen, it happens spontaneously, all the time and everywhere. It is the result of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the wave-particle duality of matter which are fundamental properties of our Universe. Our Universe is built so that it includes the 'banking principle' as a fundamental property, the vacuum can spontaneously produce positive + negative energy manifestations (for example a pair of particle + its antiparticle).

Another example is quantum tunnelling, where particles can 'borrow' energy from the vacuum to cross a barrier as long as they 'pay it back' quickly. This allows particles to cross barriers which otherwise they would not be able to. Basically the 'banking principle' is a result of the quantum (probabilistic) nature of our Universe, which dictates that no outcome has zero probability. Thus, say a particle is in front of a big barrier and it does not have, by any stretch, the required energy to cross to the other side. Classical physics would say that without the required energy, there is zero probability that the particle can cross. But in our quantum universe the probability is not zero and indeed we observe that the particle does cross with a small but certain frequency, the reason being that it 'borrows' the required energy from the vacuum and quickly returns it. This is experimentally confirmed and is well-established science.

So, given that the 'banking principle' is real in our Universe, these cosmologists stretch the concept and speculate that the same principle might be responsible for the spontaneous creation of the Universe itself.
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2015 at 05:20
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
God is a...banker? That would explain the very low interest rates, the lack of loans, no refunds for bad service and the steep penalty for early withdrawal.
Tongue  Yes but apparently he is a gentle one (or a stupid one perhaps), since he does not seem to charge any interest. When you make the accounts of borrowing energy from the vacuum in order to make things happening in our Universe, the net amount of energy is always zero.
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2015 at 00:25
Interesting. Thanks! 

Made it easier when related to econ, and perhaps I'll get new insight in those classes by thinking theoretical physicsLOL


Edited by JJLehto - April 17 2015 at 00:26
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2015 at 06:26
This is partly science but also related to sound / music so I thought it might be interesting here.

Those a bit impatient for the technical explanations can jump to around 3:30 to see the music effect. It would be nice to see the device playing ELP's Toccata or some other Prog masterpieces through it Tongue
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Points: 1607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2015 at 09:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

^ We do not know if the 'banking principle' can be invoked to explain the creation of the Universe itself, but it is a real property WITHIN our Universe. In our Universe, equal-valued positive + negative manifestations of energy can (and do) indeed pop up out of nothing. No energy is required for this to happen, it happens spontaneously, all the time and everywhere. It is the result of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the wave-particle duality of matter which are fundamental properties of our Universe. Our Universe is built so that it includes the 'banking principle' as a fundamental property, the vacuum can spontaneously produce positive + negative energy manifestations (for example a pair of particle + its antiparticle).

Another example is quantum tunnelling, where particles can 'borrow' energy from the vacuum to cross a barrier as long as they 'pay it back' quickly. This allows particles to cross barriers which otherwise they would not be able to. Basically the 'banking principle' is a result of the quantum (probabilistic) nature of our Universe, which dictates that no outcome has zero probability. Thus, say a particle is in front of a big barrier and it does not have, by any stretch, the required energy to cross to the other side. Classical physics would say that without the required energy, there is zero probability that the particle can cross. But in our quantum universe the probability is not zero and indeed we observe that the particle does cross with a small but certain frequency, the reason being that it 'borrows' the required energy from the vacuum and quickly returns it. This is experimentally confirmed and is well-established science.

So, given that the 'banking principle' is real in our Universe, these cosmologists stretch the concept and speculate that the same principle might be responsible for the spontaneous creation of the Universe itself.
 
Hi Gerinski, can they explain where does that energy come from?
 
OK that it's from the vacuum, quite interesting and it's true, as already demostrated by the particles acceleration, but then that energy is always present there??
 
 


Edited by Rick Robson - April 26 2015 at 09:32


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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2015 at 04:09
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Hi Gerinski, can they explain where does that energy come from?
 
OK that it's from the vacuum, quite interesting and it's true, as already demostrated by the particles acceleration, but then that energy is always present there??
Hi. Yes we could say that the energy is always present in the vacuum, or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the 'potential to turn into energy' is always there. There are different ways of interpreting what is actually going on though. For example it is quite popular to hear or read that the vacuum is constantly full of 'virtual particles popping in and out of existence' (I myself have said so) but this is probably only a useful analogy since such 'particles' are not real particles in the common sense of the word.

Another (and possibly more accurate) way of understanding it is by recalling the quantum nature of our Universe. Take the example of quantum tunneling I mentioned in my previous post. I said that the particle can cross the barrier 'by borrowing energy from the vacuum and quickly returning it'. This is a handy way of interpreting it, since normally we believe that crossing the barrier requires energy, so if the particle crosses it must have got energy from somewhere.

But now recall the quantum description of that particle. As you may know, quantum mechanics tells us that the particle does not have a definite position nor momentum unless we attempt to measure it (and the more precisely we want to know its position the more uncertain will be its momentum and viceversa). While we do not measure the particle, it exists in a quantum superposition of all possible states, some more likely and others more unlikely, but no state has zero probability. So some of these states involve the particle being on the other side of the barrier. While not very likely, there is a certain non-zero probability (precisely determined in a probabilistic manner) that when we will measure again a particle which is on side A of the barrier, we will find it on side B. This is another way of understanding quantum tunneling. Because the nature of everything is probabilistic, outcomes which require extra energy do happen, and when they do we may say that that extra energy came 'out of nothing'.
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Points: 1607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2015 at 22:15
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Hi Gerinski, can they explain where does that energy come from?
 
OK that it's from the vacuum, quite interesting and it's true, as already demostrated by the particles acceleration, but then that energy is always present there??
Hi. Yes we could say that the energy is always present in the vacuum, or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the 'potential to turn into energy' is always there. There are different ways of interpreting what is actually going on though. For example it is quite popular to hear or read that the vacuum is constantly full of 'virtual particles popping in and out of existence' (I myself have said so) but this is probably only a useful analogy since such 'particles' are not real particles in the common sense of the word.

Another (and possibly more accurate) way of understanding it is by recalling the quantum nature of our Universe. Take the example of quantum tunneling I mentioned in my previous post. I said that the particle can cross the barrier 'by borrowing energy from the vacuum and quickly returning it'. This is a handy way of interpreting it, since normally we believe that crossing the barrier requires energy, so if the particle crosses it must have got energy from somewhere.

But now recall the quantum description of that particle. As you may know, quantum mechanics tells us that the particle does not have a definite position nor momentum unless we attempt to measure it (and the more precisely we want to know its position the more uncertain will be its momentum and viceversa). While we do not measure the particle, it exists in a quantum superposition of all possible states, some more likely and others more unlikely, but no state has zero probability. So some of these states involve the particle being on the other side of the barrier. While not very likely, there is a certain non-zero probability (precisely determined in a probabilistic manner) that when we will measure again a particle which is on side A of the barrier, we will find it on side B. This is another way of understanding quantum tunneling. Because the nature of everything is probabilistic, outcomes which require extra energy do happen, and when they do we may say that that extra energy came 'out of nothing'.
 
Yeah right on, this is really intriguing, and as well as the old classical physics' concept of particle has radically changed I reckon today's vaccum concept is going to be the 'ball in turn'. It is something that makes me think again about one of those old basic rules of the classic physics: an object falling in constant acceleration is like if it was constantly 'borrowing' from the gravitational's potential energy (which in fact is converted into cinetic); but if the object is in a 'perfect' vacuum, then it in fact doesn't happen (the object is not submitted to the gravitational attraction), go figure that.
  
I've read that in the quantum electrodynamics, the electromagnetic field of one only charged particle is described by virtual photons continually emited and reabsorbed by the particle itself. However, regarding the gravitational interaction, the quantum associated to the gravitational interaction (graviton) was not yet observed unfortunately, thus far mere conjectures 'out of nothing', unless you have 'brand new' news just announced by the scientific comunity to share with us Tongue
 
 


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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 02:33
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

but if the object is in a 'perfect' vacuum, then it in fact doesn't happen (the object is not submitted to the gravitational attraction), go figure that.
I'm not aware of that, gravity is believed to propagate across the vacuum (even a 'perfect' one). Would you please clarify what do you mean?

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

  
I've read that in the quantum electrodynamics, the electromagnetic field of one only charged particle is described by virtual photons continually emited and reabsorbed by the particle itself. However, regarding the gravitational interaction, the quantum associated to the gravitational interaction (graviton) was not yet observed unfortunately, thus far mere conjectures 'out of nothing', unless you have 'brand new' news just announced by the scientific comunity to share with us Tongue
The graviton, if it exists, is highly unlikely to be ever detected as such, it is much too feeble. If ever its existence will be considered as confirmed, it will be because other aspects of the theory will have been experimentally confirmed but not because of actual detection of gravitons. Experiments are ongoing for trying to detect gravitational waves though, which would be one important step ahead as they could allow 'seeing' further back in the Universe's history than the microwave cosmic radiation.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 09:18
I mean, detecting a gravitational wave is essentially detecting the graviton in the same way that we regarded our measuring of the photoelectric effect as detecting the photon.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 10:38
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I mean, detecting a gravitational wave is essentially detecting the graviton in the same way that we regarded our measuring of the photoelectric effect as detecting the photon.
Well yes indeed, but since then we are now able to produce and detect individual photons, which most likely will never be possible with gravitons.
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Points: 15783 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 10:50
Yes certainly we won't be able to have any verification like that. I just wanted to point out to others that our other means of detection would be by no means second rate nor uncertain.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2015 at 12:33
When we detect or measure something it is seldom the thing itself that we measure but the effect of some property that it has on something else (i.e. the detector).

In the case of a single photon detector the photoelectric effect of one photon arriving at a detector still only releases one electron, but that single electron then triggers a self-sustaining avalanche of billions of electrons resulting in a current that can be measured. However, this measurement does not represent any property of the photon itself other than its existence and the time of its arrival at the detector so it can only be used to count or time photons. (Much like a turn-style only counts people and the frequency of people passing through it, it cannot tell anything about the size, shape or weight of each person).




Edited by Dean - April 28 2015 at 12:33
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2015 at 14:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

When we detect or measure something it is seldom the thing itself that we measure but the effect of some property that it has on something else (i.e. the detector).

In the case of a single photon detector the photoelectric effect of one photon arriving at a detector still only releases one electron, but that single electron then triggers a self-sustaining avalanche of billions of electrons resulting in a current that can be measured. However, this measurement does not represent any property of the photon itself other than its existence and the time of its arrival at the detector so it can only be used to count or time photons. (Much like a turn-style only counts people and the frequency of people passing through it, it cannot tell anything about the size, shape or weight of each person).

Just as curiosity, we need such 'domino multiplying' detectors in experiments, but the human eye is itself not too far from being able to detect single photons.
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Points: 5090 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2015 at 05:51
Deliberate precision editing of the genome in humans is already a reality thanks to a new technique named CRISPR/Cas9 developed in 2012, and a Chinese team already published a paper of their work in human embryos (which had rather limited success, but it is hard to believe that there will not be new attempts elsewhere soon).
Social debate about the implications of this new technology seems to be taboo but it is becoming increasingly urgent, for there is little doubt that sooner or later there will be someone tempted to use it for making money or something even worse. Even if declared illegal, rich people will soon be able to engineer their offspring at will in the black market clinics.

Applications as a Genome-editing and Genome Targeting Tool

Following its initial demonstration in 2012 (9), the CRISPR/Cas9 system has been widely adopted. This has already been successfully used to target important genes in many cell lines and organisms, including human (34), bacteria (41), zebrafish (32), C. elegans (42), plants (34), Xenopus tropicalis (43), yeast (44), Drosophila(45), monkeys (46), rabbits (47), pigs (42), rats (48) and mice (49). Several groups have now taken advantage of this method to introduce single point mutations (deletions or insertions) in a particular target gene, via a single gRNA (14, 21, 29). Using a pair of gRNA-directed Cas9 nucleases instead, it is also possible to induce large deletions or genomic rearrangements, such as inversions or translocations (50). A recent exciting development is the use of the dCas9 version of the CRISPR/Cas9 system to target protein domains for transcriptional regulation (26, 51, 52), epigenetic modification (25), and microscopic visualization of specific genome loci (27).

The CRISPR/Cas9 system requires only the redesign of the crRNA to change target specificity. This contrasts with other genome editing tools, including zinc finger and TALENs, where redesign of the protein-DNA interface is required. Furthermore, CRISPR/Cas9 enables rapid genome-wide interrogation of gene function by generating large gRNA libraries (51, 53) for genomic screening.

The future of CRISPR/Cas9

The rapid progress in developing Cas9 into a set of tools for cell and molecular biology research has been remarkable, likely due to the simplicity, high efficiency and versatility of the system. Of the designer nuclease systems currently available for precision genome engineering, the CRISPR/Cas system is by far the most user friendly. It is now also clear that Cas9’s potential reaches beyond DNA cleavage, and its usefulness for genome locus-specific recruitment of proteins will likely only be limited by our imagination.


http://www.dw.de/international-scientists-warn-against-chinas-attempt-to-edit-human-genome/a-18407577


http://www.neb.com/tools-and-resources/feature-articles/crispr-cas9-and-targeted-genome-editing-a-new-era-in-molecular-biology
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Points: 1607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2015 at 18:10
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

but if the object is in a 'perfect' vacuum, then it in fact doesn't happen (the object is not submitted to the gravitational attraction), go figure that.
I'm not aware of that, gravity is believed to propagate across the vacuum (even a 'perfect' one). Would you please clarify what do you mean?
 
Yeah you are right, just a speculation of mine, nothing to be really further concerned at all, because once I found out that some distributors of fruit juice do package them with a small vacuum layer instead of compressed air, after filling those carton packages with juice - the fact is that when you put them upside down you don't feel any movement of the liquid flowing down, unless you cut off the package seal obviously, go figure that.
 
 


Edited by Rick Robson - May 18 2015 at 18:15


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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2015 at 18:32
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

but if the object is in a 'perfect' vacuum, then it in fact doesn't happen (the object is not submitted to the gravitational attraction), go figure that.
I'm not aware of that, gravity is believed to propagate across the vacuum (even a 'perfect' one). Would you please clarify what do you mean?
 
Yeah you are right, just a speculation of mine, nothing to be really further concerned at all, because once I found out that some distributors of fruit juice do package them with a small vacuum layer instead of compressed air, after filling those carton packages with juice - the fact is that when you put them upside down you don't feel any movement of the liquid flowing down, unless you cut off the package seal obviously, go figure that.
 
 
If there is a volumetric space for the liquid to flow into then you will feel its movement from outside the container simply due to the shift in weight from one end of the container to the other.

Manufacturers do not package fruit juice containers with compressed air - that's out-gassed CO2 from the juice itself after sealing the container. Conversely any negative pressure in the container is the result of sealing the container while the contents are still hot. 
What?
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Points: 1607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2015 at 20:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

but if the object is in a 'perfect' vacuum, then it in fact doesn't happen (the object is not submitted to the gravitational attraction), go figure that.
I'm not aware of that, gravity is believed to propagate across the vacuum (even a 'perfect' one). Would you please clarify what do you mean?
 
Yeah you are right, just a speculation of mine, nothing to be really further concerned at all, because once I found out that some distributors of fruit juice do package them with a small vacuum layer instead of compressed air, after filling those carton packages with juice - the fact is that when you put them upside down you don't feel any movement of the liquid flowing down, unless you cut off the package seal obviously, go figure that.
 
 
If there is a volumetric space for the liquid to flow into then you will feel its movement from outside the container simply due to the shift in weight from one end of the container to the other.

Manufacturers do not package fruit juice containers with compressed air - that's out-gassed CO2 from the juice itself after sealing the container. Conversely any negative pressure in the container is the result of sealing the container while the contents are still hot. 
 
Yes indeed, there is a volumetric space for the liquid to flow into the sealed fruit juice carton container, but it's somehow weird why even shaking it strongly there is no perceptible flowing movement of the liquid inside.
 
Anyway, this is why I got the wrong impression that in the near-vacuum the gravitational force is much less effective.
 


Edited by Rick Robson - May 18 2015 at 20:23


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Points: 1607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2015 at 21:02
Does anyone know details about the discovery of the Higgs Boson at the Large Hadron Collider?
The Higgs field has a "vacuum expectation value," a perfect quantum vacuum will have a non-zero Higgs field throughout it. Excitations of this field are the Higgs particles found at the LHC!..
 
More speculatively, the Higgs field has also been proposed as the energy of the vacuum, which at the extreme energies of the first moments of the Big Bang caused the universe to be a kind of featureless symmetry of undifferentiated extremely high energy.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Rick Robson - May 18 2015 at 21:29


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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2015 at 01:14
Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

 
Yeah you are right, just a speculation of mine, nothing to be really further concerned at all, because once I found out that some distributors of fruit juice do package them with a small vacuum layer instead of compressed air, after filling those carton packages with juice - the fact is that when you put them upside down you don't feel any movement of the liquid flowing down, unless you cut off the package seal obviously, go figure that.
 
 
If there is a volumetric space for the liquid to flow into then you will feel its movement from outside the container simply due to the shift in weight from one end of the container to the other.

Manufacturers do not package fruit juice containers with compressed air - that's out-gassed CO2 from the juice itself after sealing the container. Conversely any negative pressure in the container is the result of sealing the container while the contents are still hot. 
 
Yes indeed, there is a volumetric space for the liquid to flow into the sealed fruit juice carton container, but it's somehow weird why even shaking it strongly there is no perceptible flowing movement of the liquid inside.

Yes you can. I don't understand how you believe that you cannot perceive that flow of liquid other than you are simply mistaken. When shaking it the momentum of the liquid in motion will be felt when it hits the ends of the container.

The only thing that does not propagate though a vacuum is sound but even then the vibration of the liquid hitting the sides of the container would produce sloshing sounds in the outside world. 
What?
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 11 2015 at 15:02
Looks like contrary to common belief, the past is directly caused by the future. Quoth Keanu Reeves: WHOA!

It's also interesting because a professor I had at university maintained the same thing as this experiment appears to support, but was generally regarded as a crank for doing so. Reality is stranger than fiction...
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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