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Is classical influence essential to prog rock?

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Dean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is classical influence essential to prog rock?
    Posted: March 02 2014 at 19:16
Originally posted by Polymorphia

Not a whole lot of countries had their own form of classical music before the introduction of Western classical music. (And I don't know if the term "classical" has any relevance to gamelan music).
Gamelan ensemble music is considered to be Indonesian Art Music. Classical Music is often a synonymous term with Art Music when referring to indigenous music that has a formal musical structure and theory. This structure and theory is a distinction between traditional art music and traditional folk music that can be seen in other cultures, not just Western culture.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2014 at 20:03
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by Polymorphia

Not a whole lot of countries had their own form of classical music before the introduction of Western classical music. (And I don't know if the term "classical" has any relevance to gamelan music).
Gamelan ensemble music is considered to be Indonesian Art Music. Classical Music is often a synonymous term with Art Music when referring to indigenous music that has a formal musical structure and theory. This structure and theory is a distinction between traditional art music and traditional folk music that can be seen in other cultures, not just Western culture.
I am well-aware that gamelan music contains structure and theory. But you're right. I was wrongly associating classical music with collegiate institutions and I forgot for a moment that classical music has existed for centuries without it. Dead My mistake.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rick Robson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2014 at 20:33
Originally posted by cstack3

Here's some classical Andean prog-music for ya!  I love these guys, they show up all over the place! 

........
 
If you really love these guys then you should recommend them to take off the drums from the band, at least from this song btw superb!, for the sake of the music they play, in which i didn't felt ANY prog element at all. Agua Clara is for me another typical example of andean "root" folklore suited let's say to "pop", which such kind of "adaptation" you can see further more explored in the bolivian andean folkloric group Los Kjarkas. But i always loved when Los Kjarkas played the pure andean "root" folklore, it is MUCH more beautiful and have a unique atmosphere of deep though melancholic melodies that really catches my spirit.
 
This kind of music can NOT be mixed at all neither with electric guitar nor with drums, for the sake of their so special and spirituous sound, one of my favourites, any possible prog genre born from these folk elements should never be called Andean prog-music at all.
 
Some songs they composed, like this one bellow, have for me more value than many of the prog rock songs that have so frequent worship here in this forum. 
 
 
or 
 


Edited by Rick Robson - March 02 2014 at 21:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2014 at 13:09
Originally posted by Rick Robson

Originally posted by cstack3

Here's some classical Andean prog-music for ya!  I love these guys, they show up all over the place! 

........
 
If you really love these guys then you should recommend them to take off the drums from the band, at least from this song btw superb!, for the sake of the music they play, in which i didn't felt ANY prog element at all. Agua Clara is for me another typical example of andean "root" folklore suited let's say to "pop", which such kind of "adaptation" you can see further more explored in the bolivian andean folkloric group Los Kjarkas. But i always loved when Los Kjarkas played the pure andean "root" folklore, it is MUCH more beautiful and have a unique atmosphere of deep though melancholic melodies that really catches my spirit.
 
This kind of music can NOT be mixed at all neither with electric guitar nor with drums, for the sake of their so special and spirituous sound, one of my favourites, any possible prog genre born from these folk elements should never be called Andean prog-music at all.
 
Some songs they composed, like this one bellow, have for me more value than many of the prog rock songs that have so frequent worship here in this forum. 


Thanks!  I consider this progressive....you don't find much electricity up in the Andes mountains!  I've never seen them with a drum set, but I was in a hurry to post something.  

It's interesting....I was in Exeter, Devon UK in the early 1990's and heard a very similar band playing identical songs!  

I do play some of Agua Clara music on electric guitar, and jam to some of it.  It makes a very nice change from Western European musical idioms.  I suppose this is lumped into "world music," which is not a phrase I always like to use. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rick Robson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2014 at 12:32
Originally posted by cstack3

Originally posted by Rick Robson

Originally posted by cstack3

Here's some classical Andean prog-music for ya!  I love these guys, they show up all over the place! 

........
 
If you really love these guys then you should recommend them to take off the drums from the band, at least from this song btw superb!, for the sake of the music they play, in which i didn't felt ANY prog element at all. Agua Clara is for me another typical example of andean "root" folklore suited let's say to "pop", which such kind of "adaptation" you can see further more explored in the bolivian andean folkloric group Los Kjarkas. But i always loved when Los Kjarkas played the pure andean "root" folklore, it is MUCH more beautiful and have a unique atmosphere of deep though melancholic melodies that really catches my spirit.
 
This kind of music can NOT be mixed at all neither with electric guitar nor with drums, for the sake of their so special and spirituous sound, one of my favourites, any possible prog genre born from these folk elements should never be called Andean prog-music at all.
 
Some songs they composed, like this one bellow, have for me more value than many of the prog rock songs that have so frequent worship here in this forum. 


Thanks!  I consider this progressive....you don't find much electricity up in the Andes mountains!  I've never seen them with a drum set, but I was in a hurry to post something.  

It's interesting....I was in Exeter, Devon UK in the early 1990's and heard a very similar band playing identical songs!  

I do play some of Agua Clara music on electric guitar, and jam to some of it.  It makes a very nice change from Western European musical idioms.  I suppose this is lumped into "world music," which is not a phrase I always like to use. 
 
Regarding your thoughts here i get your point, considering this as Classical Andean Prog-music, it's a deserved pompous adjective for their superb music, right on...
 
I think they manage to inspire any composer, i don't know if Steve Hackett ever listened to this at least once, if so he would have composed other wonders like for example "The Red Flower of Tachai Blooms Everywhere", which i remind now as having a simile effect to my ears, i can't feel the same when i listen to "Sierra Quemada" (Guitar Noir - Somewhere In South America - Disk 2) and "Jacuzzi" (Defector).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StaaViinsZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:04
Only if you're AWESOME like Yngwie Malmsteen.
At least, before his 3rd album, LOL!
Admittedly, it seems a little too much shred (if there is such a thing) and not enough song MAY have drifted into his later works.
Really though, listen to "I'll See The Light Tonight" from Marching Out and tell me he wasn't mondo dope on his second album.

"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:06
Malmsteen is not prog though. He is, perhaps more poignantly was, a hyperspeed shredder.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:26
lol.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:32
Originally posted by StaaViinsZ


Really though, listen to "I'll See The Light Tonight" from Marching Out and tell me he wasn't mondo dope on his second album.

He was--  unfortunately the production sounds like sh*t compared to the debut, not sure what happened.   No Barriemore Barlow of course, and that hack Soto on vocals.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 19:37
Originally posted by Guldbamsen

Malmsteen is not prog though. He is, perhaps more poignantly was, a hyperspeed shredder.
Don't bring the shred into this now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StaaViinsZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2014 at 23:56
Originally posted by Guldbamson

Malmsteen is not prog though. He is, perhaps more poignantly was, a hyperspeed shredder.

Well now, saying Malmsteen is not Prog is just a little.. FORWARD, wouldn't you say, "GULDBAMSON"?
I always thought Malmsteen was at least a little Prog-- if on the Metal side of things.
I guess you could say he's deserving of the title "Honorary Prog Metaller", simply for pioneering (to my knowledge) the usage of classical compositions in Metal music, even if usually only in ultra-fast solos.
But in all honestly, I suppose 'Ol Ing Vay is about as Prog as Golden Resurrection (someone please tell me they've heard of them).

Originally posted by Atavachron

He was--  unfortunately the production sounds like crap compared to the debut, not sure what happened.   No Barriemore Barlow of course, and that hack Soto on vocals.


As for the production, I can't say, but I didn't find it objectionable.

I haven't gotten around to hearing the debut yet, mostly because it seemed like it would be the exact same thing, just with 3/4ths of the stuff being instrumental, and yes, that can be a disadvantage when it comes to Mother Malm.
An example of Ein-STEEN's instrumental gone bad would be, again, from Marching Out, "Overture 1383" .
Lets face it, the thing starts off strong, but then plods off for about 10 years with some slow classical piece played on electric guitar, mercifully cut short at the 2:59 mark before the crowd began to chant "We Want Metal!"
However, that example is very A-typical for Malmsteen, as his instrumentals, at least most of the newer ones, tend to be much more high-energy than that particularly lame one.

As for the vocals, I can't say I know who Barriemore Barlow is, although I probably should, but I'll go out on a limb and say he probably sang for Steening-malmvay on, say, Odyssey or Trilogy.

Personally, comparing the vocals from the first two albums to those such as Trilogy, I'd have to say whoever was on Trilogy was the HACK, not Soto. In fact, I find myself discouraged to buy any of Wayving Buzzsteen's later albums because they all seem to have a lame vocal in comparison to Soto.
I guess it's just what you get used to. I heard Marching Out first. Did you hear Trilogy or whatever else first?

Oh, and of course appreciate the agreement with my so Politically Neutral statement of "Mondo Dope".

Originally posted by Polymorphia

Don't bring the shred into this now.


I take it bringing in Brother Steen was a BIG NO-NO for the "classically influenced Prog-Rock" thread?

Like, one that might have disastrous results?
"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 00:15
Barlow was the drummer; he was also in a little band called Jethro Tull and he helped make the debut so good... which  you haven't heard.   It's one of the best things to come out of the 80s (and of course set off a wave off copycats not seen since the first Van Halen LP).   Marching Out kinda paled in comparison.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote StaaViinsZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 00:40
Barlow was the drummer; he was also in a little band called Jethro Tull and he helped make the debut so good... which  you haven't heard.   It's one of the best things to come out of the 80s (and of course set off a wave off copycats not seen since the first Van Halen LP).   Marching Out kinda paled in comparison.


Well, regardless, vocals on Trilogy were kinda lame, at least when coming off the high that Soto was.
I personally think that it all came together perfectly on Marching Out-- but I think Rising Force could potentially be great too. It's pretty cheap on E-music, so maybe someday soon, I'll let you know.
"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 01:43
^ Technical virtuosity alone is not sufficient criteria for someone to be deemed a Prog musician (in the same way that being a speed typist doesn't necessarily make you an author)
BTW Did you know your user name is an anagram of Vain Ass Zit? Shocked


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 06 2014 at 02:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:18
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

^ Technical virtuosity alone is not sufficient criteria for someone to be deemed a Prog musician (in the same way that being a speed typist doesn't necessarily make you an author)


Nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote StaaViinsZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:39
^ Technical virtuosity alone is not sufficient criteria for someone to be deemed a Prog musician (in the same way that being a speed typist doesn't necessarily make you an author) BTW Did you know your user name is an anagram of Vain *** Zit?


Can I ask why you've been using the name anagram generator?
Or did you just manage to figure that out after 10 minutes of screwing around with the letters of "StaaViinsZ" on pen & paper?

Yes, I've heard that ONCE before, and the only time I heard it was from the name anagram generator that is available online somewhere.
Haha, before you edited your post, a little birdie told me via e-mail that and anagram of yours was Gimme Lithe Next!
But... What does Lithe mean?

As for your "Technical vitousity alone..." comment, I would be inclined to agree, but I wasn't saying because Malmsteen is mondo crazy good at guitar playing that he was therefor Prog; on the contrary, I said he deserved an HONORARY position of Prog Metaller because he PIONEERED Neo-Classical. Sortof like Chuck Norris being an honorary Texas Ranger.
It doesn't mean he really was, but he was so cool that he deserves to at least have an honorary place.
With Yngwie, it's the same in my mind:
It doesn't mean he really is Prog, but he was so influential that he deserves to have an honorary place.

But, I suppose, in a strict terms argument, no, Chuck Norris is not a Texas Ranger; Nor is Yngwie Malmsteen Prog.
But you have to admit, they're both awesome, so they both deserve to be at least noted as inspirational to others.

So I was never trying to claim Yngwie was Prog because he can play.
I was simply saying he deserves an honorary place in the heart of Proggers everywhere because of his pioneeringness (Which I know is not a word).

Can I get a... Alright?

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:40
Originally posted by StaaViinsZ


But... What does Lithe mean?

Supple and graceful. 


Edited by Dean - March 06 2014 at 02:40


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:41
Originally posted by StaaViinsZ


Can I get a... Alright?

 
lol.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote StaaViinsZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2014 at 02:52
Originally posted by Dean

Supple and graceful.


Thank you! So... Gimme Gracefulness Next?
That's... weird...
"Let us scream like Tom Mallicoat, and whisper like Geoff Tate, for the difference between the two is nigh."
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