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Topic ClosedVan or Von??

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Poll Question: Ludwig's last name in full
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 01:55
Perhaps it's an error only German and Dutch speakers make.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 03:16
Van Beethoven
"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from"
"Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" LOL
"Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"

So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 03:49
As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" .  Big smile


... or beer gardens.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 05:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" .  Big smile


... or beer gardens.  LOL
 
His old man used to frequent the beer gardens on a regular base.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 08:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As Ludwig means "famed warrior"... he becomes "famous warrior from the beet gardens" .  Big smile


... or beer gardens.  LOL

LOL Great!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:34
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Van Beethoven
"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from"
"Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" LOL
"Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"

So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens Wink



Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)

had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")


but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 18:54
It's Vaughn. Ludwig Vaughn Beethoven. Or "L'Vaughn" for short. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 19:31
I've always known it to be 'Von'.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2014 at 20:32
How about "Furtwangler's Van Beethoven"? That's the real thing.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2014 at 13:49
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Van Beethoven
"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from"
"Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" LOL
"Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"

So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens Wink



Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)

had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")


but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? Wink



Lodewijk, yes! Big smile
Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post.
What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version...
So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! Shocked


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2014 at 18:11
No. Everybody everywhere has always written VAN. I don't know where this new "von" thing came from. Probably from a prog website or something .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:16
Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Van Beethoven
"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from"
"Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" LOL
"Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"

So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens Wink



Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)

had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")


but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? Wink



Lodewijk, yes! Big smile
Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post.
What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version...
So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! Shocked
 
LOL
 
One of the most amazing read in the Netherlands is the Amsterdam  phonebookWacko, where you'd have to look afor Ludwig's phone # under B (for Beethoven, van)  instead of V (for Van B...)
 
 
And for a colleague's name van der Aat, I'd probably  have to look under the lletter AHead on wallSmileWink
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Sean Trane - January 20 2014 at 04:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 04:41

As far as I remember (for all my life), it's "van". At this point to me "von Beethoven" sounds weird, ... doesn't sound right.

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Like Teo, I'm surprised so many thought it was von, (is there a German word "hoven"?)


In either case, my point is proven to my colleagues... Even music fans make this rather-common mistake... 
I didn't know that was common. Stern Smile I believe not knowing the name of some famous (as in popular) classical piece and its author would rather be more common. E.g., I didn't know the name of Adagio in G minor and the name of Tomaso Albinoni until I read them on YouTube two years ago.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - January 20 2014 at 04:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:01
Confused Ermm

At first I thought there was some subtle nuance of Flemish I was missing here, but if anyone had actually looked at Ludwig's signature:

Beethovens Unterschrift

You can see that he uses an upper case "V" himself (though quite how that scribbled first word is "Ludwig" defeats me), however in this letter you can see he's invented a middle-case "v"
And in others it's closer to a lower-case "v" - without going into an "scientific" investigation I suspect it changed over time to be less "Belgian" and more "Austrian".


Either way, filling him under "V" is like filing The Beatles under "T" isn't it? Sure you can do it, but it's not particularly helpful.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:28
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:



Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:


Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


Originally posted by Moogtron III Moogtron III wrote:

Van Beethoven
"Van" is Dutch/Flemish for "from"
"Beet" is a "biet", which is, well the Dutch word for a "beet" LOL
"Hoven" is the plural from "hof", which is the Dutch word for "garden"
So, the famous composer Ludwig van Beethoven is actually: Ludwig from the beet gardens Wink


Ludwig's daddy was from Leuven (Louvain) and his grandfather was from Mechelen (Malines)had they been Dutch (insteazd of Flemish), their name would've been van Beethoven (small "v")but shouldn't Ludwig's name be Lodewijk, then??? Wink

Lodewijk, yes! Big smile
Well, I see now that I already wrote Ludwig van Beethoven, with a small letter v, the Dutch way, in an earlier post.
What's more: I see on the Dutch Wikipedia the same thing, and on the German and the French version...
So we all wrote it wrong all those years, except for the Belgians, who wrote Ludwig Van Beethoven with a capital v all the time! Shocked

 
LOL
 
One of the most amazing read in the Netherlands is the Amsterdam  phonebookWacko, where you'd have to look afor Ludwig's phone # under B (for Beethoven, van)  instead of V (for Van B...)
 
 
And for a colleague's name van der Aat, I'd probably  have to look under the lletter AHead on wallSmileWink
 
 
 
 
 
 



According to Dutch lexicographical logic, van der Aat's phone # is to be fount on one of the first pages of the phonebook. Prepositions and articles have a minor influence on the alphabetical order.
That's why I expected to find Van der Graaf Generator in the company of Genesis, Gentle Giant and Gnidrolog here on PA, years ago.


Edited by someone_else - January 20 2014 at 05:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 05:50
The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage.  Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.

Here we regard VdGG as a whole band name rather than a personal name so would no more file them under "G" than we would Pink Floyd under "F" or Jethro Tull under "T" (though over the years many have tried) ... or perhaps Porcupine Tree under "T" or King Crimson under "C". Luckily we don't have to worry about Manfred Mann. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:45
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage.  Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.


Dutchmen would say: Robert van de Graaff, but: mr. Van de Graaff, so when the first name isn't being used, you capitalize the V
Flemish people would always capitalize the V, in all circumstances
But both the Dutch and the Flemings wouldn't capitalize the d.
Easy does it Wink
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The band name is a complete misspelling anyway, the Generator of static electricity that bears the name was designed by Robert Van de Graaff, an american of Dutch heritage.  Why is the "V" is capitalised and the "de" not? Is this another nuance? I'm beginning to suspect things aren't all that consistent.



The official rule (for the Netherlands at least) is that you don't use capitals is the first name is given (or abbreviated).
So:
mister Robert van de Graaf
mister R. van de Graaff

If however the first name is not provided then the first letter of the family name prefixes must be capitalized.
Hence:
mister Van de Graaff

So if you've seen it as Robert Van de Graaff then he probably forgot how to spell his own name from being American for too long. LOL



PS. I had to correct the above 3 times as I kept spelling Van de Graaf with one f.
2 ff's just doesn't make much sense at all in modern Dutch!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:48

That other Belgian here is too fast for me Confused



PS on topic. I always thought it was Von Beethoven as I was not aware of his Flemish origins.


Edited by Bonnek - January 20 2014 at 06:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2014 at 06:51
Hmmm I never had this problem when I changed my Facebook name to Aladdin von Pottenheim (notice the small v in there).
The von did have it's upsides though. Shortly after having changed my name, I was bombed with mails from Russia and Ukraine, where young women, who all seemed to be looking for sex(Yay!), clearly wanted me badly. My first reaction though was that they'd read the Aladdin part of the name and thought to themselves: 'Oy isn't that the guy with the lamp and the cute blue hovering dude?' and then later on I remembered just how many lords and counts who tend to have a 'von' snuck in somewhere in their name....
Either way, I never befriended any of those girls - I was a little worried about them turning out to be some old guy from Stockholm that for some reason just had a thing for my, at the time, rainbow-coloured hair due.
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