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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:41
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I know exactly what apophenia means. and I certainly am not Bob Fripp,  but neither are you (or are you indeed and your avatar is a photo of your wife shutting her ears to one of your lectures? Wink) so the question of whether it is just apophenia or not has to remain undecided.
Correct. And at least you're now open to the possibility that is could be apophenia, so that's progress.

So your assertion "the long instrumental part is an attempt at expressing the lyrics with instrumental means alone." is still a matter of personal interpretation and certainly not the matter of fact you initially stated it to be.
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

and there are a lot more examples of such kind of sound picturing in music history. my favorite is probably the aria of the genius of the frost in Henry Purcell's opera "King Arthur"
Of course there are, Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring is another and in Prog circles there's Pictures At An Exhibition (though personally I think Emerson misses the mark a tad), but we do not know that Moonchild "The Illusion" is one of them. 





Edited by Dean - March 08 2014 at 11:43
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Points: 10377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:


I know exactly what apophenia means. and I certainly am not Bob Fripp,  but neither are you (or are you indeed and your avatar is a photo of your wife shutting her ears to one of your lectures? Wink) so the question of whether it is just apophenia or not has to remain undecided.
Correct. And at least you're now open to the possibility that is could be apophenia, so that's progress.

So your assertion "the long instrumental part is an attempt at expressing the lyrics with instrumental means alone." is still a matter of personal interpretation and certainly not the matter of fact you initially stated it to be.
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

and there are a lot more examples of such kind of sound picturing in music history. my favorite is probably the aria of the genius of the frost in Henry Purcell's opera "King Arthur"
Of course there are, Aaron Copeland's Appalachian Spring is another and in Prog circles there's Pictures At An Exhibition (though personally I think Emerson misses the mark a tad), but we do not know that Moonchild "The Illusion" is one of them.

Dean, everything you, I and anyone says is a matter of opinion only. matter-of-fact statements should be left to the creator of this world, provided there is one, or to creation itself


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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 11:48
ta-dah!
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 12:23
I've always liked Moonchild and never ran into anyone that hated it until this site.  Say no more.   Other than maybe I am a moonchild. Big smile


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 08 2014 at 12:23
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 12:48
On a serious note, Moonchild's actually my favourite song on that album and I've always perceived a clear narrative structure to the improv section as BaldJean describes in the OP. Even though I'm not much into jazz and don't know much about music theory either.
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Points: 20468 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 14:08

Until Bald Jean mentioned her analysis of Moonchild it never crossed my mind it could be interpreted in that manner ,but I can certainly see why one might think that way. The instrumental avant garde section of it is my least favorite part of the LP but to me it's still interesting and not any less acessible imo than some of their other avant garde things from later lp's.
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Points: 1474 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 16:41
I don't really hate it but I don't really understand it either. Aside from the first two to three minutes it's very unempenetrable to me.

I don't hear what the OP said was in there either. Apparently the old show tune "Surrey with a fringe on top" from Oklahoma is suppose to be inbedded in there somewhere also(or at least in certain versions) but again I didn't hear it.


Edited by Prog_Traveller - March 08 2014 at 16:41
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 17:02
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

I don't really hate it but I don't really understand it either. Aside from the first two to three minutes it's very unempenetrable to me.

I don't hear what the OP said was in there either. Apparently the old show tune "Surrey with a fringe on top" from Oklahoma is suppose to be inbedded in there somewhere also(or at least in certain versions) but again I didn't hear it.


This mirrors my own thoughts. So even what's NOT there is a pop tune NOT a prog tune...but the silence between the tracks is clearly in 13/8 compound poly-meter can't you hear that, I mean it's obvious!  paahAngryEmbarrassedLOL
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:06
I have heard all the arguments, read the dissertations and put in earnest effort many times, still sounds like pointless noodling to me. At best I hear experimentation solely for experimentation's sake. I doubt I will ever keep it going after the vocal.
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Points: 17494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:22
Its one of my favorite sections of the album, the pointless noodling, nothingness, experimental jazzy jibberish is all good to me. How can you hear that "stuff" on youtube though Confused........
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 20:25
^ ... 'Cause it's the same track as on the album? ... Ermm

Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 08 2014 at 20:25
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 21:30
Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

I have heard all the arguments, read the dissertations and put in earnest effort many times, still sounds like pointless noodling to me. At best I hear experimentation solely for experimentation's sake. I doubt I will ever keep it going after the vocal.

Is that such a bad thing? We complain when prog bands experiment just for the sake of experimenting (TFTO comes to mind) yet we also grow irritated, even betrayed when prog bands go the other direction and write "pop music" and "sell out" for more money, so to speak. Anyway, I consider myself content with listening to what the artists have to offer. I just don't understand this other prspective.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 21:34
^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ?

Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 08 2014 at 23:51
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Points: 604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2014 at 22:57
I personally like the track. I don't see the need to over-analyse the music.
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Points: 83 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 05:23
I always loved Moonchild, but I guess that's because I also love ambient/drone music.
I always thought that the second part of Moonchild has a lot to offer when it comes to atmosphere - I listened to the shortened version on one of the latest ITCOTCK remasters and without the second part it's just a pretty pop song with nice lyrics..

The second part really elevates the whole thing to a new level and also sets the mood beautifully for the last track..
I wouldn't want to live without the whole of Moonchild, but that's just my opinion Wink

Also:

Originally posted by The Mystical The Mystical wrote:

I personally like the track. I don't see the need to over-analyse the music.
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Points: 809 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:17
I'm sure I read somewhere that someone from KC said it was an improv (can't remember where). KC have always improvised of course and were inspired to create some of their best music doing this. Not sure if Moonchild is their best improv though...

While I like to listen carefully to music, sometimes it's best to go with the flow and Moonchild is one I just enjoy.

Feel free to analyse it if you want to! :)
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Points: 10377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:21
Originally posted by Terra Australis Terra Australis wrote:

I'm sure I read somewhere that someone from KC said it was an improv (can't remember where). KC have always improvised of course and were inspired to create some of their best music doing this. Not sure if Moonchild is their best improv though...

While I like to listen carefully to music, sometimes it's best to go with the flow and Moonchild is one I just enjoy.

Feel free to analyse it if you want to! :)

I am most certain it is an improvisation. but it is in my opinion an improvisation with a presetting: to try to capture the song lyrics


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Points: 809 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:26
^Fair enough! Enjoy...
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:27
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

I have heard all the arguments, read the dissertations and put in earnest effort many times, still sounds like pointless noodling to me. At best I hear experimentation solely for experimentation's sake. I doubt I will ever keep it going after the vocal.

Is that such a bad thing? We complain when prog bands experiment just for the sake of experimenting (TFTO comes to mind) yet we also grow irritated, even betrayed when prog bands go the other direction and write "pop music" and "sell out" for more money, so to speak. Anyway, I consider myself content with listening to what the artists have to offer. I just don't understand this other prspective.

There is nothing wrong with it especially when it sparks good ideas, but most of the time I get the feeling it's just the artist thinking, "Look how creative and different I am." So they will play anything that pops into their head, record it and call it brilliant.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ?

That would be more of an exploratory approach with some kind of goal in mind. Think of classic scientific method. There is a theory and then that theory is tested. 
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Points: 10377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2014 at 07:35
Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

I have heard all the arguments, read the dissertations and put in earnest effort many times, still sounds like pointless noodling to me. At best I hear experimentation solely for experimentation's sake. I doubt I will ever keep it going after the vocal.

Is that such a bad thing? We complain when prog bands experiment just for the sake of experimenting (TFTO comes to mind) yet we also grow irritated, even betrayed when prog bands go the other direction and write "pop music" and "sell out" for more money, so to speak. Anyway, I consider myself content with listening to what the artists have to offer. I just don't understand this other prspective.

There is nothing wrong with it especially when it sparks good ideas, but most of the time I get the feeling it's just the artist thinking, "Look how creative and different I am." So they will play anything that pops into their head, record it and call it brilliant.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ What is your idea of experimentation not for the sake of itself ?

That would be more of an exploratory approach with some kind of goal in mind. Think of classic scientific method. There is a theory and then that theory is tested. 

if you look at the way science developed you will find that many important discoveries were made because someone made an experiment without having any theory to be tested. the theory came after the surprising discovery.

by the way:  the word "theory" is wrong in this context. in science a "theory" is something which is well-founded by repeatable experiments or observations. if no experiments in that direction have been made yet scientists speak of a "hypothesis"


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