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The longevity of prog (and rock) music

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The T View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The longevity of prog (and rock) music
    Posted: March 19 2014 at 08:15
Originally posted by Stool Man

For an approximate idea of how today's (or yesterday's) music will be regarded in 100 years time, just consider how we currently regard the music of 100 years ago.
 
When was the last time you listened to Caruso?
Well, Enrico was a performer, not a composer. 

We (at least those in the classical world, and academia, etc) still listen to Bartok, Stravinsky, Etc, the music of 100 years ago (well, around 100 anyway). Even the bad-trend-setting Schoenberg Second Viennese school is still heard (or studied at least, as it's very close to unlistenable sometimesTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 08:58
Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by Stool Man

For an approximate idea of how today's (or yesterday's) music will be regarded in 100 years time, just consider how we currently regard the music of 100 years ago.
 
When was the last time you listened to Caruso?
Well, Enrico was a performer, not a composer. 

We (at least those in the classical world, and academia, etc) still listen to Bartok, Stravinsky, Etc, the music of 100 years ago (well, around 100 anyway). Even the bad-trend-setting Schoenberg Second Viennese school is still heard (or studied at least, as it's very close to unlistenable sometimesTongue


I know squat about what they teach in conservatoires these days but as far as the longevity of certain composers go, ain't those who devise the curriculum going to dictate who stands the test of time?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 09:27
A "time will tell" situation in the music business also revolves around things that have little to do with music. Radio, television, and the publications industry all get a piece of it. They form a representation for an artist which sticks in the minds of the public. Over the last few decades Nick Drake began to surface. A new generation of youths became fixated on promoting him. Suddenly , T.V. wonderful of emptiness got a hold of Nick Drake and his song "Pink Moon" was being used for a Volkswagon commercial. So if Prog ever did vanish...it would have a good chance of returning ..however...I can't see it ever fading to that extreme and even over a hundred years. People will always be interested in Syd Barrett. You might ask..."What does Syd Barrett have to do with Prog?" A hundred years from now...people will remember the household name Pink Floyd and have an understanding that it connects them to a wide spectrum of music that was relevant during that time. Some composers will always remain to be more popular than others. A percentage of that music being the reason why the hype exists, but a much larger percentage of popularity/growth that is cemented and unforgotten in history implies that an industry was seeking investment in it. Paganini was hyped and piegon-holed as a dark ..tall..thin  man who was mysterious and in league with the devil. That still raises the interest of young musicians who wish to adapt his music to their own.

Edited by TODDLER - March 19 2014 at 09:32
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 09:32
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by Stool Man

For an approximate idea of how today's (or yesterday's) music will be regarded in 100 years time, just consider how we currently regard the music of 100 years ago.
 
When was the last time you listened to Caruso?
Well, Enrico was a performer, not a composer. 

We (at least those in the classical world, and academia, etc) still listen to Bartok, Stravinsky, Etc, the music of 100 years ago (well, around 100 anyway). Even the bad-trend-setting Schoenberg Second Viennese school is still heard (or studied at least, as it's very close to unlistenable sometimesTongue


I know squat about what they teach in conservatoires these days but as far as the longevity of certain composers go, ain't those who devise the curriculum going to dictate who stands the test of time?
To a point. But normally what is chosen is what probably will more surely be of enough academic value to be useful for students. If you plan your curriculum on musical theory and composition around Justin Bieber I doubt classes will last too long, be too useful, or be actual classes in any way. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 15:23
It's hard to tell if prog will survive, actually its practically impossible to know for sure.

Good music, however, tends to stand the test of time, so I hope this will hold true for prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 18:51
...I tend to think that Prog will likely hold up better than Justin Bieber...

Sorry, just my typical JB slam!  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 20:40
Originally posted by cstack3

...I tend to think that Prog will likely hold up better than Justin Bieber...

Sorry, just my typical JB slam!  LOL


LOL I don't think we'll ever get to see a JB tribute band. 

Seriously, I think that's a good measure of what will last for another 50+ years at least, the amount of tribute bands dedicated to prog artists like Pink Floyd, Genesis and Yes. It's not just us oldies that amuse ourselves going to their gigs, I see lots of young kids joining in the fun as well. Even David Gilmour himself hired the Aussie Floyd to play on his 50th birthday party. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Svetonio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 21:08
If the genre wasn't found dead at the time of punk & new wave hysteria, it will survive the next hundred years for sure.







Edited by Svetonio - March 19 2014 at 21:29
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 21:24
Call me cynical, but it would seem the human race is becoming stupider with every generation (the movie Idiocracy, although mediocre in delivery, is so rich in ideas about humanity basically breeding out intelligence that it is more terrifying than funny). That being said, In 100 years I doubt very much there will be music as we know it, and that would include classical, prog, rock, bluegrass, etc. Those musical genres of antiquity will be relegated to the few schools of higher learning left that include such studies as art, literature or music (literary works will be written in a variant of Internet shorthand and phonetics, with brightly colored pictures). Guitars will be right up their with lyres in regards to playing popularity.

People will be fed live-streaming pop (called "pap", a mix of tribal beats, Chinese/Hispanic/Urdu doggerel rap and droning electric rhythmic elements) directly into their cranial cortex via a chip installed at birth (that includes GPS, video capabilities and health monitor).

Fortunately, I will be dead. Thank God for Guinness and cigarettes.
Please pay a visit to my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music reviews, literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 21:56
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

In 100 years I doubt very much there will be music as we know it, and that would include classical, prog, rock, bluegrass, etc. Those musical genres of antiquity will be relegated to the few schools of higher learning left that include such studies as art, literature or music (literary works will be written in a variant of Internet shorthand and phonetics, with brightly colored pictures).
I doubt it.  

Originally posted by The Dark Elf


People will be fed live-streaming pop (called "pap", a mix of tribal beats, Chinese/Hispanic/Urdu doggerel rap and droning electric rhythmic elements) directly into their cranial cortex via a chip installed at birth (that includes GPS, video capabilities and health monitor).
Isn't that pretty much what we have now?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 22:25
Originally posted by Atavachron

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

In 100 years I doubt very much there will be music as we know it, and that would include classical, prog, rock, bluegrass, etc. Those musical genres of antiquity will be relegated to the few schools of higher learning left that include such studies as art, literature or music (literary works will be written in a variant of Internet shorthand and phonetics, with brightly colored pictures).
I doubt it.

Why doubt it? One thing you should never do is underestimate human greed...or our amazing capacity for stupidity. The arts, already underfunded in many curricula, will eventually be defunded in schools as an unnecessary expense. Rap has all but eliminated blues, jazz and R&B in the black culture, and that trend is spreading. A century from now? No one will be able to write a grammatically correct sentence, let alone attempt a Vivaldi concerto.    

Originally posted by Atavachron

Originally posted by The Dark Elf


People will be fed live-streaming pop (called "pap", a mix of tribal beats, Chinese/Hispanic/Urdu doggerel rap and droning electric rhythmic elements) directly into their cranial cortex via a chip installed at birth (that includes GPS, video capabilities and health monitor).
Isn't that pretty much what we have now?
Not quite yet. The GPS chips are still only in our pets. I see that changing with our manic need for miniaturized gadgetry. Who could predict in 1990 that in less than 25 years  whole populations would be completely addicted to handheld devices that do everything but wipe your ass while you engage in acronymic texting while driving? That was only in a 25 year period, mind you. 

Hey, get the chip! How else will you get the perfect 4-D viewing experience? And while you're at it, upgrade your chip to include bank info (no more wearing out the strip on the back of your credit card!), passport, health info (great if you go into anaphylactic shock eating peanuts), and sexual gratification stimulator (ah, the porn inside your head!). 





Edited by The Dark Elf - March 19 2014 at 22:31
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2014 at 22:53
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

Originally posted by Atavachron

Originally posted by The Dark Elf

In 100 years I doubt very much there will be music as we know it, and that would include classical, prog, rock, bluegrass, etc. Those musical genres of antiquity will be relegated to the few schools of higher learning left that include such studies as art, literature or music (literary works will be written in a variant of Internet shorthand and phonetics, with brightly colored pictures).
I doubt it.
Why doubt it? One thing you should never do is underestimate human greed...or our amazing capacity for stupidity. The arts, already underfunded in many curricula, will eventually be defunded in schools as an unnecessary expense. Rap has all but eliminated blues, jazz and R&B in the black culture, and that trend is spreading. A century from now? No one will be able to write a grammatically correct sentence, let alone attempt a Vivaldi concerto.    

Except I have no doubt a century ago people thought the same thing.   But I'm guessing your response would likely be "And they were right!!"   So I can see this exchange going in circles.   And BTW when has attempting to write a Vivaldi concerto been a benchmark of human culture?; Vivaldi was a benchmark, Vivaldi was a genius.   But there have always been and will always be far more people attempting his accomplishments and falling short.   Therefore what?   Not everyone can be a Vivaldi, sometimes not even a Mozart can be a Vivaldi.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 00:40
Originally posted by The Dark Elf

Call me cynical, but it would seem the human race is becoming stupider with every generation (the movie Idiocracy, although mediocre in delivery, is so rich in ideas about humanity basically breeding out intelligence that it is more terrifying than funny). That being said, In 100 years I doubt very much there will be music as we know it, and that would include classical, prog, rock, bluegrass, etc. Those musical genres of antiquity will be relegated to the few schools of higher learning left that include such studies as art, literature or music (literary works will be written in a variant of Internet shorthand and phonetics, with brightly colored pictures). Guitars will be right up their with lyres in regards to playing popularity.

People will be fed live-streaming pop (called "pap", a mix of tribal beats, Chinese/Hispanic/Urdu doggerel rap and droning electric rhythmic elements) directly into their cranial cortex via a chip installed at birth (that includes GPS, video capabilities and health monitor).

Fortunately, I will be dead. Thank God for Guinness and cigarettes.


Although I sympathise with this view, it seems more than likely that popular culture would have repelled you at any given point in history. Culture can always be cynically looked (down) upon as a pacifier designed for those either unable or unwilling to articulate their own ideas.
Look on the bright side: if it wasn't for popular culture none of us would have any reason to feel remotely good about ourselves. On a more serious note, there is evidence that the human race may actually be getting smarter as studies by intelligence researcher James Flynn, an emeritus professor of the University of Otago in New Zealand. reveal compelling evidence that this generation significantly outscore previous generations when they undertake the original IQ tests done by the latter. The findings do fluctuate geographically but even out at about 3 extra IQ points per decade. However, I think you've actually answered your own question correctly: it's not dumbness that makes popular culture so crass and venal, it's greed, laziness and being shown that the path of least resistance is the only road that's available (and its got a toll natch)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 04:21
Yes the recorded work is pllentiful. Even if it all stopped now there is more music than anyone can consume or at least the way album listeners consume that is the listen, re-listen and compare impressions 10,20, 30. 40 years ago pf the same pop songs like Topgrpahic Oceans.

Queensryche had an interesting poibt about attention spans quickening. This is indicted by something I read a while back by someone who wasn't familiar  with Pink Floyd. ... ??!... yes. Anyway he downloaded the catalogue and the next evening or so gave his opinion of the Screaming Abdabs as were as "a pretty good band with some interesting music". The whole lot downloaded, head, assimiled and opined upon inside 24 hours or so.

We've been dumbed down for years, we are supposed to be passive consumers, unthinking droids that do as we are told and not to think anything unless we have been instructed. Inspite of the pap pop, the graphically obscene yet dull rap, dance music that has no syncopation making it even easier for the half body bob up / down there is still cerebral voracity that our governments and their media cannot stem despite their most dedicated attentions. But government achieves the opposite of what it intends so often.

It may be that prog will actually be assimilated by mental appetites frustrated by the dearth of intelligent content to such an extent that box sets will be consumed like singles. But it's the meaning and significance of music in popular culture relevance that is important. Academic archiving is not popular culture (unless it intersects like The Beatles). Music defines our personal and cultural significance and human egos need that acknowledgment of appreciation.  Music was my major and I had a v. good look at it all for that perspective.

It may be that popular culture in the near future will be very divided but the prog  / classical quotient will be very underground. I went to a Stravinsky gig a while back and while I wasn't the youngest, the amount of people watching Symphony In C and Oedipus Rex were in an aging minority ( a half full town hall).

Interestingly, (to me) the popularity of Abba and '70s pop acts in pubs and discos has not decreased. Girls not even a twinkle in their old man's eyes back then are drunkenly singing Dancing Queen... bit like their mothers used to... timeless breeds odd bedfellows...  plus ca change plus c'est la memchose n'est  pas?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 06:57

The Industry will do all they can to press for new styles and new artists to become popular, just as with fasion anything news is good news, people listening to what they allready paid for is bad, it generates no money. I dont think they care the last little bit what style it is, as long as you pay money, by magasines, and merchandise.Media seems to follow the same trend, more or less directly sponsored by the industry.

Without doubt they will be succesful with that strategy in the future, as they have been in the past, remember they have nothing against indie or alternative styles, they just bye there way into those too.
 
So besides those few collecters, that will keep a niche alive in their basement (just like a few people today still have
a lot of recordings with 20's swing Jazz, early 50's rock ect.) The majority will know those bands that have influenced the next generations (like Hendrix - Zeppelin - Floyd - Beatles today), and it is impossible to say, if Amon Dull II, will be one of the main inspirations of bands playing in 2114. But i dont think that a lot of Prog bands, will be remembered by many people. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 07:02
When you point out that we still listen to some Classic composers, its the same thing, those are the few, out of hundreds and hundreds of now forgotten composers, that are remembered. From time to time a composer get a revival, but at the same time others are slowly forgotten.

Edited by tamijo - March 20 2014 at 07:03
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 07:17
^ scarcity alone confers a value on anything: if we have a surfeit of composers and their music can be heard, only the very best are remembered. If we have a dearth of any recorded music in any style, what can be heard, irrespective of quality is afforded a value. Twas ever thus.


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 20 2014 at 07:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 07:21
I dont get your point - do we have a dearth of any style ?
The only style i can come up with should be Reggae, not that many good artists to chose from, and basicly only 1 is remembered.

Edited by tamijo - March 20 2014 at 07:25
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 07:45
Originally posted by tamijo

I dont get your point - do we have a dearth of any style ? The only style i can come up with should be Reggae, not that many good artists to chose from, and basicly only 1 is remembered.


I'm not a fan and would happily admit to being pretty clueless but I know Reggae is much, much bigger than just Bob MarleyWink

Perhaps not currently but all I mean is that in the very distant future, depending on what music has been preserved and is therefore still available will determine the longevity of any art. No matter how good you think something is now (like I know you love certain Krautrock) if that is not preserved for posterity it will be forgotten. Were it not for the exhaustive field trips undertaken by the likes of composers Bartok and Kodaly throughout eastern europe before WW2 transcribing gypsy/peasant music etc that entire vocal/unwritten  tradition would have been lost forever. Just because we are in the digital age does not immunize us from the danger of losing contemporary artifacts forever. You can back up your media till you are bluetooth in the face, but the successful retrieval of data rests upon a physical and therefore perishable server.


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 20 2014 at 07:51
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2014 at 08:41
Originally posted by ExittheLemming

Originally posted by tamijo

I dont get your point - do we have a dearth of any style ? The only style i can come up with should be Reggae, not that many good artists to chose from, and basicly only 1 is remembered.


I'm not a fan and would happily admit to being pretty clueless but I know Reggae is much, much bigger than just Bob MarleyWink

Perhaps not currently but all I mean is that in the very distant future, depending on what music has been preserved and is therefore still available will determine the longevity of any art. No matter how good you think something is now (like I know you love certain Krautrock) if that is not preserved for posterity it will be forgotten. Were it not for the exhaustive field trips undertaken by the likes of composers Bartok and Kodaly throughout eastern europe before WW2 transcribing gypsy/peasant music etc that entire vocal/unwritten  tradition would have been lost forever. Just because we are in the digital age does not immunize us from the danger of losing contemporary artifacts forever. You can back up your media till you are bluetooth in the face, but the successful retrieval of data rests upon a physical and therefore perishable server.
We totaly agree, a lot of things, and most likely niche music like Kraut, will be lost. There is a tiny tiny tiny possibility that the future will be Krautish, and therefore Amon Dull or Popul Wut Cool, will be remembered, but then again there is also a teoretical possibility there will one day be peace in the middle east.  
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