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Rednight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hey, Wait a Minute!
    Posted: March 24 2014 at 13:26
I'm sure this topic has been delved into before by somebody else in this forum, but does anyone besides me (surely) have problems with some of the remastered segments on the recent editions of Genesis' Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot? I bought the remastered former (the one without the extras), and the remastering, while being adventurous, is still annoying. Double that opinion for the latter with extras. For instance, the cocktail glass sounds are almost silent in the bar sequence of Get Them Out By Friday. Enough other examples can be offered but won't be because I'd like to hear from anyone else who cares to weigh in on this matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2014 at 13:48
I've only heard the remasters, so I am not familiar with the sounds of the originals. Ermm I've noticed a few inconsistencies with the King Crimson remasters though. Steven Wilson did a wonderful job overall, but I've also wondered why a big chunk of Moonchild was cut from the original.

Oh, and your thread title is a bit vague.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2014 at 14:34
I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2014 at 19:09
Perhaps this will help to clarify - 

Edited by Slartibartfast - March 24 2014 at 19:10
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2014 at 19:18
Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.

I totally agree with you. I guess during the vinyl era, you would play your record so much, it would eventually get all scratched and you had to get a new copy, something that is not an issue today, so to sell more copies, you see all this remastered, extra track(s) and other stuff editions. So even if you have a perfectly good CD, you are tempted to buy the "new and improved" edition, so they can suck your hard earned cash.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2014 at 07:29
The only changes I've noticed on the recent Genesis box set remasters were things I hadn't noticed before such as tambourine in Cinema Show and a change in the sound of the "they're changing everything" part of Supper's Ready.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fs_tol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 17:43
The issue of the changes in the remaster has been vastly discussed in audiophile forums, the general consensus being that they're bad because of the heavy compression and bright EQ used.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 04:41
Well they had there career engineer guy doing them, Tony Banks claosely supervised them and (MVHO as we have to constantly have to say) they sound fine. In the olden days they had little time and money to get decent mastering done. Now they can and did. On new technology.

Many audiophiliacs don't like things that are different from what they are used to - like many people. And if you have walls full of LPs it's kind of hard to admit that lot (a lifetime of tiume money and listening devotion) is now redundant. The format change was milked by the record companies. Newer recordings (80s onwards maybe don't need so much remastering) but older ones benefit. The old tape sourced media being out through god knows what consumer audio may not cut it. But if you are listening to a record from 1973 on your old Majestic Three In One you should be fine. So many of these audiophile guys moan aboout all the stuff they are hearing makes me think they need to get a new record player.

Logically a 24 bit master should sound good. DVDs, Blu Ray, DVD Audio and SACD usually work fine. Classical music is using this a lot and no problems there. But then there is always more investment to art rather than mere pop music. '8) Now it is interesting making the comparison between the 16 bit (the usual source of audio fan moans) and DVD versions (24 bit). I have feeling 16 bit may have been down-sampled by the machines rather than  mastered for this sample rate and this may be the cause of the complaints).

Plus digital media should be sourced from one master and have no generational issues (unlike records). Of course there may be editing issues - I have one, not Genesis but Zeppelin's Presence.

Back to Genesis - my originals (vinyl has long gone) are mainly the '90s Japanese masters. To me Nursery Cryme sounded like a revelation after my old versions. It comes alive! And Then There Were Three sounded like the original only more present abit like clearing some near invisible cob webs or in my case looking through newly wiped glasses. (Specs, not ones that used to have bourbon).

It may depend on what ones you pick up, There are the UK ones with a hybrid /  SACD layer plus the DVDs with all the footage and extras. The US ones have no SACD layer. These nearly make the archive sets redundant - but not quite.

I've not seen or heard much of the live material but I think my CDs should do. Apparently the drums are a bit lost in the new master of Seconds Out so I shall continue worshiping my Japanese copy. PLus the bass pedal clarity in Live is a little off putting - so I've heard. I think the remasters that are most essential are the earlier ones but the question remains for me; what was the sound Genesis preferred then - given optimal mastering circumstances?

The rip offs are everywhere but some good releases do happen. Even movies apparently with extras not on a Blu Ray but the DVD making a consumer buy at least two purchases. But in the music world there are so many versions of releases I give up. Enough. A shocking offender was the Stones' Exile box set. How mean, there was a DVD featuring excerpts from 4 (not 4 DVDs) plus a bonus track only available in Japan. This is supposed to be an archive release, would that have really made such a difference? Same thing with Sabbath's 13. 3 or 4 extras depending on where you are. Many extras are there to fill up space and might not otherwise have been released (The Cure's bonus material is a lot of sub standard for bootleg live recordings. The Sabbath deluxes are fine though as are Purple's. It's just a matter of due care and research before buying. Luckily PA is quite good here, between this, the Al  Music guide and the wiki pages a good version fo something might be found. The fun of shopping for music is going, going... gone.

Ironic isn't it? The flood of material should be dirt cheap - no new recording costs - and have people flooding into the shops - shop, in my case. (A city of half a million with one retail outlet).  So many prefer a physical copy. Yet still the record companies alienate their customers.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 04:45
Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.
By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.


I tend to agree with you.

To buy any re-master there needs to be something other than the original album on offer. I bought a couple of Genesis re-masters because the package included DVD concert footage from the respective eras that I really wanted. I'm fairy indifferent to the nominal differences in the albums sound.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kingesis2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2014 at 22:47
The remasters sound weak, they sound very clear but everything is spread randomly and the sound is very artificial compared to the original mixes
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mirror Image Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2014 at 23:42
I never liked the 'Definitive Remasters' that have plagued my listening and was thrilled to have some not only remasters, but completely new remixes. I'm thankful for Nick Davis and the work he's done. As someone on Amazon said, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway comes alive in this remix. Yes, there's clarity and superb instrument separation, but there's so many new sounds that have been brought to the fore that you just don't get with those 'Definitive Remasters.'

Anyway, all of our ears are different. There's no right/wrong here. It's a matter of what you prefer to hear in the music.

Also, where Nick Davis scores huge brownie points with me is on the 'Definitive Remaster' of Nursery Cryme in Steve Hackett's loud electric guitar passages in Return of the Giant Hogweed and The Fountain of Salmacis there was some harsh clipping in the upper registers that absolutely ruined the whole pieces for me. Thankfully, this has been cleared up.


Edited by Mirror Image - April 14 2014 at 23:47
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2014 at 23:56
Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2014 at 00:39
Original what? CDs (non remastered)? LPs?

It's not really as simple as that. Depends on the source and media playback. I compared the remaster of Songs From The Wood to the original CD issue. There's no comparison. The remaster is heaven; the original CD sounded like it was played in glue. The LP sounded fine. Digitally remastered LPs versus no remastered LPs (not sure). I do wonder how the progress made with Aqualung has been going. My remaster is the one with the interview and some BBC sessions and sounds only a little better than the LP i.e. one of the worst production jobs ever in Tull's catalogue but still easier on the ear than Broadsword and The Beast.

Alot depends on whether someone has 10s of 1000s of LPs and do not want to recognize that they are or may be redundant. Nor do we want these record companies abusing the their consumers (expensive remasters often issued with bonuses best not included). These can ruin that album experience.

We have a wave of progression and the collective thought is a retreat from progress - seems things are happening too fast and expensively for people to keep up.

Anyone comparing classical LPs to the DVD / SACDs and good 16 bit versions? I recently got LvB's 7th and 8th Symphonies on DVD Audio and they sound fine - as I expected I suppose.

But rock and pop records were often made under economically precarious conditions and now (after financial success and tech advancement) the best versions (albeit different to what a listener is used to) emerge and adjusting hearing and emotional memory may be a trying experience.

MFSL did some nice remastering of everyhting they did. Once I get my turntable fixed (needle and the damage done... stylus fell off) I'll look for those old half speed mastered LPs (e.g. Aja has a good LP reputation).

Preparing audio for DVD or CD playback is required as is converting the signal back to analogue for an LP playback of a remaster. Of course the technology has changed but digitally remastering the already digitally remastered (the new batch of Zeppelin releases) sounds likely to be unnecessary. I understand the Mother ship compilation is a different mastring to the 1990 mastes as well. Things can get a bit over egged and silly.

If an old LP sounds better than a new CD remaster chances are there's the possibility the remaster was intended for the most common playback consumption - mp3 (a concern Jimmy Page noted making me wonder about these new masters (thinking of over compressed audio). Test before you buy I think.

The best way of comparing is like comparing video tape to a DVD or Blu Ray (which I don't have). Both should be good but clarity and depth perspective should be a more enhanced experience.





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Post Options Post Options   Quote Logos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2014 at 16:16
In general - If it sounds different, it's not the same album anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jude111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2014 at 22:46
Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.

I heard the "original" Genesis albums on CD (not vinyl) - and hated it. Really terrible sounding. It wasn't until I heard the remastered versions that I was able to discover and get into Genesis.

EDIT: Reading others' responses, I can see I'm not the only one who thought the Genesis remastering was badly needed.


Edited by jude111 - April 17 2014 at 22:48
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kentucky_Hawkwindage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2014 at 07:21
Observation on my part-I think my remastered version of Black Sabbath Born Again sounds alot better than the original LP or the 1st CD issue.My opinion only.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2014 at 12:33
The original Cryme is somewhat muddy, but that's OK. The remaster chaps my ass. There is some sort of inconsistency in the mix of some tracks, esp. "Hogweed". Some parts are too loud or too clean compared to the rest of the mix.

I'm fine with the Foxtrot remaster. There are some noticeable changes on "Supper's Ready", but that's fine with me.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 18 2014 at 12:35
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2014 at 12:47
Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.
 
In the early days, and we're talking almost 40 years ago, the "imports" of the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and Rolling Stones, were VASTLY DIFFERENT from the American versions of the LP, which were very poor copies.
 
As I stated before, I found a lot of these "remasters", to be the same as those better quality recordings that the Americans have never heard!
 
As for Steven's doing of KC, I find it sad and pathetic and poor at the same time and would prefer that he stuck to his own work and Porcupine Tree. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the redo that he did that makes the original any better whatsoever. It makes it look like, however, that the only thing that was done is that the guitar now sounds completely separated from the others, and they are all more isolated, which in the end, for my tastes did not make the music any better at all.
 
This part is "subjective". The visual side of the music, for me, did not change, which kinda tells you that it did not matter that someone goofed with it or not. The feeling was too strong to be ignored and not understood, or appreciated. End of story. For me Steven did not improve anything!
 
To be perfectly hones with everyone, to me this is like 4 different versions of the same piece, one conducted by Karajhan, the other Bernstein, the other Ozawa, and the other Leinsdorf! ... and then another by Tomita ... in the end, I don't think that it re-shaped the original music that much! But we keep saying that the technology is better. So what? The technology did not create the music, the people/persons DID ... which means that what Steven or some other folks try to do that is "different" is just an ego exercise, and not a reality for my tastes!


Edited by moshkito - April 18 2014 at 13:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote claugroi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2014 at 16:49
Originally posted by jude111

Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.

By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.

I heard the "original" Genesis albums on CD (not vinyl) - and hated it. Really terrible sounding. It wasn't until I heard the remastered versions that I was able to discover and get into Genesis.

EDIT: Reading others' responses, I can see I'm not the only one who thought the Genesis remastering was badly needed.

The Genesis remasters were needed indeed. If anyone disagrees with this, I invite him/her to listen to the original Trespass. Terrible ! The whole atmosphere of the album is weak and muffled. The remastered version sounds as if they had recorded the exact same album in another studio at a different time. I also enjoyed all the other remastered albums, but this is the greatest example because it is the most different.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2014 at 05:46
Originally posted by claugroi


Originally posted by jude111



Originally posted by lazland

I have always considered "remastered" releases to be an excuse by record companies, artists, or others merely to squeeze more money out of the poor old punter, and, as such, I rarely bother to get them, unless there is something wholly new that I absolutely must have.
By and large, the originals are the best way to taste the goods.

I heard the "original" Genesis albums on CD (not vinyl) - and hated it. Really terrible sounding. It wasn't until I heard the remastered versions that I was able to discover and get into Genesis.
EDIT: Reading others' responses, I can see I'm not the only one who thought the Genesis remastering was badly needed.


The Genesis remasters were needed indeed. If anyone disagrees with this, I invite him/her to listen to the original Trespass. Terrible ! The whole atmosphere of the album is weak and muffled. The remastered version sounds as if they had recorded the exact same album in another studio at a different time. I also enjoyed all the other remastered albums, but this is the greatest example because it is the most different.


Couldn't agree more. Very much needed. :)
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