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claugroi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Challenge to early Supertramp fans
    Posted: April 01 2014 at 17:52
Hi, people. I'm going to explain the background story first and then propose a challenge: 

I'm a wikipedian. I frequently contribute to music articles, mainly prog ones. About a month ago, I started an editing war on Supertramp's debut album because the article was stating Rick Davies was the lead singer on Shadow Song, which is one of my favourites (reason why I listened to it several times). I've always known, like any true Supertramp fan should, that the lead vocals on that song were not Davies's, but Palmer's. It turns out that the information for Rick's vocals come from Richard Palmer-James himself ! He was interviewed in 2011, 41 years after the album was recorded, and stated that Rick was the lead singer on that song. The way he answered the question and the obvious fact (to me) that the voice in Shadow Song is not Rick's led me an obstination about this ! I'm really looking for an evidence that I'm right. I even thought about contacting Richard Palmer, but I guess that would be a bit hard ! The only thing I found so far was this certified review of the album in which the writer states "Turns out Rick Davies sings lead on only one song ("Nothing to Show"), meaning all the rest of the vocals are handled by Hodgson (before his voice became annoying - it's actually quite good here) and Palmer": http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm

Here is the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertramp_(album)

Here is the discussion I had with 2 wikipedians about this, both saying that if the source says it's Rick, then it's "clearly" Rick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

Challenge: 

Are you a true Supertramp follower ? Do you know the band's career well enough to recognise its members' voices ? Do you enjoy the superb early Supertramp album ? Then tell me: who sings LEAD vocals on Shadow Song ? (we know the harmony is by Hodgson)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2014 at 22:19
hmmm.....absolutely love their debut album. Surely if Richard Palmer says he did not sing the lead vocal, you have to believe him? Still listening to Shadow Song I could easily believe that that is Rick singing and don't have any of Palmer's vocals to compare with. it could easily be a young Davies vocal :-) Listen to Davies sing " Forever" on Indelibly Stamped from 1971 and there appears to be a slight similarity but hey good luck finding evidence to prove Richard Palmer is wrongSmile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 05:22
In much the same way I always knew Phil Collins sang For Absent Friends on Nursery Cryme (even though it was not published as such), I have always thought it was Rick Davies singing on Shadow Song, and I have seen or heard nothing credible to doubt that at all.

Heck, if Palmer says so, why do you have any credible reason to doubt him?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 06:22
Hodgson and Palmer is singing wonderfully on Try Again Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 06:30
Good call - I always thought it was Palmer-James. Just listened to it now and find it difficult to grasp it's Davies. Sounds more Hodgson than Davies.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 07:30
Shadow Song us utterly beautifull, and the lyrics which IS  Palmer-James is very touching
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Shadow Song us utterly beautifull, and the lyrics which IS  Palmer-James is very touching

He wrote the lyrics, that is not in doubt, given that he wrote all the lyrics for that album.

However, he did not sing on that track. Davies and Hodgson did. He confirms that himself in interviews I have looked at today. Why would we doubt his word?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 10:06
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Shadow Song us utterly beautifull, and the lyrics which IS  Palmer-James is very touching

He wrote the lyrics, that is not in doubt, given that he wrote all the lyrics for that album.

However, he did not sing on that track. Davies and Hodgson did. He confirms that himself in interviews I have looked at today. Why would we doubt his word?
i dont.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 10:11
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Shadow Song us utterly beautifull, and the lyrics which IS  Palmer-James is very touching

He wrote the lyrics, that is not in doubt, given that he wrote all the lyrics for that album.

However, he did not sing on that track. Davies and Hodgson did. He confirms that himself in interviews I have looked at today. Why would we doubt his word?
i dont.

OkaySmile I am obviously having a confused day!LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 13:59
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

hmmm.....absolutely love their debut album. Surely if Richard Palmer says he did not sing the lead vocal, you have to believe him? Still listening to Shadow Song I could easily believe that that is Rick singing and don't have any of Palmer's vocals to compare with. it could easily be a young Davies vocal :-) Listen to Davies sing " Forever" on Indelibly Stamped from 1971 and there appears to be a slight similarity but hey good luck finding evidence to prove Richard Palmer is wrongSmile

Why simply believe if I'm disputing that information ? If I thought it was him, I would have no problem believing in him. It's exacly because it doesn't sound like Davies that I doubt him. As I said, he recorded only one album with Supertramp and it was 41 years before the interview he gave. So he had two reasons not to remember very well who sang lead on that song. Actually, he might have even confused the songs, but that's just a possibility... Anyway, it doesn't sound like Davies at all. The voice timbre is very different. On Forever it does sound like a young Davies. And of course you have Palmer's vocals to compare ! Just listen to Maybe I'm a Beggar. It's the same man singing those songs ! It's Palmer all the way ! Give it a try... Notice the trembling voice in some specific words. This happens in both songs. Just compare.

See more of this discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

In much the same way I always knew Phil Collins sang For Absent Friends on Nursery Cryme (even though it was not published as such), I have always thought it was Rick Davies singing on Shadow Song, and I have seen or heard nothing credible to doubt that at all.

Heck, if Palmer says so, why do you have any credible reason to doubt him?

Well, imagine that Phil Collins gave an interview in 2012 commenting about the recording of Nursery Cryme, which took place 41 years before. Imagine that he had stated "It's Peter singing in For Absent Friends". Wouldn't you doubt him ? I mean, no one is perfect. Our brain does fail sometimes. Our memory cannot remember some details about things we did 41 years before, mainly if those things were not really important. Palmer only recorded one album with Supertramp and he didn't sing a lot there. Those reasons are enough for me to believe that he might have commited a human mistake, which is something very very normal. Have you seen the review I talked about ? http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm The reviewer says that Rick only sang one song in the album, and it was Nothing to Show. I agree because the voice in Nothing to show does sound like Davies's, but it doesn't in Shadow Song.

See more of this discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Supertramp_(album)

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Good call - I always thought it was Palmer-James. Just listened to it now and find it difficult to grasp it's Davies. Sounds more Hodgson than Davies.......

Finally ! Now two people agree with me. We either have great accurate ears or are all crazy. I'm pretty sure it's the first option.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 14:45
^ my dear chap, if I relied upon every obscure review on the intertit, especially those with a Russian address, to provide me with such facts, or leads, I would be in a pretty sorry state.

Also, old Phil has never stated in a interview that Gabriel sang For Absent Friends. Quite the oppositeWink

Now then. 41 years ago. 1973. April. The second.

I was living in Harlow, Essex. I was 8 years old (nine in that year). We lived in a place called Red Lion Crescent. My best mate was a lad called Paul Mason. I used to fight a lot with Wayne Bowden.

At this time on that night, I had just finished watching Alias Smith & Jones, one of the finest tv shows ever made. My Mum had just smacked me for telling my annoying little sister to feck off.

How's that, then?Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 15:08
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

^ my dear chap, if I relied upon every obscure review on the intertit, especially those with a Russian address, to provide me with such facts, or leads, I would be in a pretty sorry state.

Also, old Phil has never stated in a interview that Gabriel sang For Absent Friends. Quite the oppositeWink

Now then. 41 years ago. 1973. April. The second.

I was living in Harlow, Essex. I was 8 years old (nine in that year). We lived in a place called Red Lion Crescent. My best mate was a lad called Paul Mason. I used to fight a lot with Wayne Bowden.

At this time on that night, I had just finished watching Alias Smith & Jones, one of the finest tv shows ever made. My Mum had just smacked me for telling my annoying little sister to feck off.

How's that, then?Approve

Sorry, but you weren't very fortunate in your commentary. First of all, you seem to mistrust the source because it's Russian. It might be because of historical problems between the UK and Russia, and I have nothing to do with this, nor does it have to do with our main concern here. For your information, the owner of the website is a famous Russian linguist whose works on that area are regarded as important. I am a Linguistics student myself (graduating this year), so I know what I'm saying...

It's not a question of "relying". I just wanted to show you people that I am not the only human being on Earth who thinks Rick Davies did not sing Shadow Song. As you must have seen above, now there is another lad who agrees with me. Like I said to him, we three either have great ears of are totally insane.

Regarding Phil and Peter, it was just an example, and I really hope you understood it that way, not literally...

About your story, do you really think it made me believe that 41 years are nothing ? Come on, we are not talking about last year's vacation or our first kiss in High School. We are talking about an irrelevant fact in someone's life that happened four decades ago. As you probably know, professional musicians do not have the custom of listening back to their old albums. I doubt that Richard Palmer has listened to Supertramp's debut album even once in the last 40 years. Also, how could you watch Alas Smith and Jones in 1973 if the series is from the 80s ??? That couldn't be true even if it was 1983 !


Edited by claugroi - April 02 2014 at 15:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 15:31
Ermm I said ALIAS Smith and Jones, not bloody Alas. The former was a Western series, featuring Pete Dual (the much missed). Alas Smith and Jones was a piss take name of the Western series by two comedians named.....erm,. Smith and Jones (Mel and Griff to be precise).

I can assure you I have no problem with Russian websites, nor the country. Indeed, of the websites, they contain some of the best and finest tits I have seen outside of Prog Archives.

Now, to sleep. This is becoming a very silly thread.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2014 at 15:36
It is, indeed. I think your Britishness is contributing to that. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 14:15
Indeed, when listening to this song Album "Supertramp" is perfectly observed that the main voice in it, is not Roger Hodgson and not is Rick, which is very clear, that the composition of this song, its chords melodies and lyrics, Roger was behind her. 

What is absolutely clear is, who was the soul and spirit of this band; and who wrote the songs that gave fame to Supertramp, ROGER HODGSON,  and who have a concern, here it reflects a clear and concise:

Album                                               Roger Hodgson  Songs, Songwriter & Singer                            
Supertramp  (1970)                             Surely
                                                            Words Unspoken

Indelibly Stamped  (1971)                   Rosie had Everything Planned


Crime of the Century   (1974)             School
                                                            Hide in Your Shell
                                                            Dreamer
                                                            If Everyone was Listening


Crisis? What Crisis  (1975)                 Easy Does It
                                                            Sister Moonshine
                                                            A Soapbox Opera
                                                            Lady
                                                            The Meaning
                                                            Two of Us

Even in the Quietest Moments 
                                (1977)                 Give a Little Bit
                                                            Even in the Quietest Moments
                                                            Babaji
                                                            Fool's Overture


Breakfast in America  (1979)              The Logical Song
                                                            Breakfast in America
                                                            Take the Long Way Home
                                                            Lord is It Mine
                                                            Child of Vision


Supertramp Paris   (1980)                   School
                                                            The Logical Song
                                                            Breakfast in America
                                                            Hide in Your Shell
                                                            Dreamer
                                                            A Soapbox Opera
                                                            Take the Long Way Home
                                                            Fool's Overture
                                                            Two of Us


Famous Last Words  (1982)               Crazy
                                                            Itīs Raining Again
                                                            Know Who You Are   
                                                            Cīest Le Bon
                                                            Donīt Leave me Now


From here, in 1984 Roger Hodgson began his solo career, which I appreciated, because for me, personally, that band Supertramp had a definite soul and spirit, Roger Hodgson. The essence of this band was in music and compositions of Roger.

Currently, Roger Hodgson has her Breakfast Around the World Tour 2014, after many years of shows around the world, some of which, I have enjoyed live, and where you can see how the voice has improved over Roger the years and the quality of sound on stage, if you like Supertramp and you liked the songs, Roger, you should not miss, you will be surprised. 



In his latest album, Classics Live, you can see how good it sounds Roger live, and the songs presented, along with songs he has written in his solo career, a luxury now have this great opportunity to enjoy Live.



For more detailed information:

http://www.rogerhodgson.com  (Official Website)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrRogerHodgson  (Official Channel Youtube)





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 14:50
Originally posted by Candyfish Candyfish wrote:



From here, in 1984 Roger Hodgson began his solo career, which I appreciated, because for me, personally, that band Supertramp had a definite soul and spirit, Roger Hodgson. The essence of this band was in music and compositions of Roger.






I disagree. Whilst Hodgson contributed a hell of a lot as you noted above, you are missing the other main players who did provide the other 80%

Rick Davies - Numero uno composer and song writer
Dougie Thompson - Extraordinary bass player
Bob Siebenberg or Bob C BenbergWink - Drums
John Helliwell - Sax, Keyboards and Master of Ceremonies

Hodgson has been busy since leaving Tramp but let's not forget the band continued very comfortably without him and released an additional 4 studio albums after his departure. Some of which underrated.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 15:25
I respect your disagreement, but the data speak for themselves .

The band actually had other members as you say 80 % physically , but the essence of Supertramp, are songs that Roger wrote and sang . The global reality in my point of view is that I have expressed above.

Sure Rick took the name of Supertramp, and then they released 4 albums after separation , I did not contribute anything for me, sorry for Rick .

Roger also brought to market five great albums since 1984 , if they were feeling and I get feelings and emotions.

Moreover, Rick with Supertramp name, sometimes used songs of Roger on tour after separation , to call public attention to the promotions of these concerts , something that does not honor it , since the agreement was clear from Roger , and the latter not respected .

Everyone has their own opinion , and you have to respect it, but everyone asks that Supertramp songs are what the public likes ?

I have it very , very clear since I was a child, 35 years ago . Without Roger Hodgson , Supertramp had not been Supertamp .

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 19:00
Candyfish, I don't really understand why you took advantage of this thread to promote Roger. Personally, I disagree with everyone who says that Supertramp was Hodgson. Supertramp was a collective effort. Helliwell, Thomson and Siebenberg were very important to the band's career, to the point of it being a totally different group without them, and obviously the band wouldn't even exist without Rick Davies, who is its founder and proprietor (he is the owner of the name Supertramp). I love Rick and Roger almost equally, but if I had to choose I think I would choose Rick. One thing is undeniable: most of Supertramp's hits were Roger's, but that's understandable because his compositions were more commercial, almost always Beatlesque. Rick had more blues and jazz influenced songs, but also managed to compose commercial sucesses, such as Goodbye Stranger, My Kind of Lady, Bonnie and Free as a Bird. When Hodgson left, Supertramp didn't cease being Supertramp, it just changed, and changes sometimes scare people.

Anyway, this topic is not about that. It's about who sang the lead vocal on Shadow Song, a track from their first album. Do you know the song ? Would you like to share you opinion with us ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2014 at 21:28
I have followed the thread from when it was written 2 days ago, and at the time needed to revisit the debut album as it had been a while. Funny thing about this is I was reading that wiki article a while back to see when it was that Mr.Helliwell had joined up and noticed that your edit of RPJ singing on Shadow Song was up, not Davies. I am more of a King Crimson fan than a Supertramp one and that note caught my eye because I didn't know RPJ sang any songs, seeing how he only provided lyrics to KC albums... anyway after two days of listening to both Shadow Song and Maybe I'm a Beggar I have to agree with claugroi that it is RPJ on Shadow Song. I also think RPJ sounds more like John Wetton (a man whom Palmer-James has worked with for a good portion of his career) than he sounds like Davies. 

Sorry if this derails things but a similar thing has happened before where a musician "discredits" himself for some contribution on album/song. 

The example that comes to mind is Jack Bruce of Cream and his credit on Zappa's Apostrophe album. Jack Bruce claims he only went into the studio with his clarinet and played one crazy note, while Zappa said he played bass on the entire eponymous track, even going so far as to slight Jack's playing style. Jack's reason for discrediting himself may be because of his dislike of Zappa. When commenting on his contribution to the album he says something like "It's awful stuff" while he promotes some album he was originally in town to collaborate on. Maybe Richard Palmer-James didn't like how he sounded on that song, maybe he didn't like the lyrics he had written and wanted to disassociate himself with the song, or maybe like claugroi has stated he simply had a slip of memory and mistakenly credited Davies. Either way go listen for yourself then comment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2014 at 00:19
I don't wish to turn this curious thread into a Supertramp appreciation thread, but the first post-Hodgson album 'Brother Where You Bound' is an admirable slab of Prog as it was during the mid-80's. Hodgson or not, Davies could carry the name with pride.
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