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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 03:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Is that really a defence?  I mean, if I come in subsequently in a thread to say something in disagreement with someone without agreeing with someone else who alleged imperialism, then I too must necessarily have alleged imperialism?  Wow...that totally rocks!  Dead
Sorry. Perhaps "defence" was the wrong word. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:46
 
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ I've already stated that the view of Prog's cultural source being English is not beyond debate and is certainly open to further investigation but just found it interesting that there is now a substantial body of written research and publications which support this view. I'm not sure you understand the important difference between British and English? (I was born in Glasgow so I'm Scottish and British but certainly NOT English - that's maybe like confusing an American with a Canadian? I dunno where you're from or much care frankly.

Er, thank you very much. I do know that British and English are not the same thing.  I however used the word British because 'Canadian' is clearly excluded from 'American' while English is not likewise excluded from British, it is a subset as is Scottish. Moving on...


Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


I don't recall making any reference to the difference between progressive and Prog and don't even see the relevance. Nor have I stated or even implied that English Prog is in any way superior to any other Prog from any other part of the world. Similarly, the inference that music that does not resemble English Symphonic Prog cannot be deemed progressive is entirely of your own making.

Er, perhaps you don't recall or would not like to recall but you did say in the other thread on funk that you do not consider Krautrock prog.  That is a curious statement because a lot of Can's work for instance is (a) based around more unorthodox structure than the typical rock verse-chorus pattern and (b) is very much rock-related.  I am speculating that the reason for saying so is holding on to a fixed notion of prog defined in the, ermmm, English image of it.

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

 Not sure why you're just making up stuff that I haven't even said?

I am not making up anything, only deriving the implied meaning of your comments in this thread.  Krautrock has very little to do with English prog rock music but it is nevertheless prog in a broader sense.  If you hold the view that the origins of prog rock are English (and you said you do), then that automatically excludes Krautrock and probably also a lot of other European prog.  Italian prog for instance, while influenced by English prog, is often more classical and less rock-based and is in substance a very different music.  I do not know if the research you alluded to has also considered why say Krautrock or American prog should not be part of the source but both these genres developed parallel to English prog chronologically speaking.  Hence, unless it is clarified that prog only refers to English prog, it IS very confusing to insist that the cultural source of prog is English.  Further, the problem doesn't only end with music that was recorded at the same time as the early English prog.  What about prog rock made later that is not strongly related to English prog rock music?  Going by your approach, it would have to be excluded as well.

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

It seems that as soon as there is speculation as to the cultural origins of any artistic phenomenon those furthest removed from the source all get a bit defensive, paranoid and feel excluded.

Very good. Thank you for not bothering to read what I wrote.  I have not alleged any imperialism or racism here.  All I said is I sense some laziness and inertia in preferring to hold on to a widely held view even if its accuracy is questionable.  My concerns are more semiotic and in calling them defensive or paranoid (and also double triple jumping to the conclusion that it must have to do with my own cultural origins), you only raise questions of your own defensiveness about the whole thing.
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

There are no judgements being handed out here and no-one is denigrating the Progressive Rock that has been created outside the cramped confines of late 60's England. Are all the bands I've named Symphonic Prog? (I don't think so but as you say the definitions are not sacrosanct)

Maybe, but you unfortunately choose to go even further to exclude prog rock created outside England that does not bear a clear relation to that music from the ambit of prog rock.  So that's even worse than denigrating it.  And coming to the last para...

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


I think the reason Prog Rock doesn't get called British Prog Rock is for the same reason that Country and Western isn't prefaced with American Country and Western i.e. both are global phenomena because neither are bound by their cultural roots. (For the sake of clarity, that's a good thing)


Sorry but these aren't nearly comparable.   Country is in fact very strongly connected to its cultural roots and if it didn't imply something very specific, it wouldn't make sense....every country has its own, er, country music as in music played in the countryside.  The same cannot be said of prog rock.  To this day, it continues to be defined in very broad, inclusive terms that only require a certain degree of ambition and openness to long form while operating largely within the boundaries of rock.  Such a broad definition is not compatible with the assertion that prog's roots are English for it then becomes much more specific.  As I said, I am not averse to Englishmen wanting to celebrate their achievement but please call it English prog rock music in that case. 


Yes, I think your concerns are semiotic. I've never considered Krautrock to be Prog but would certainly acknowledge it is experimental and challenging, progressive music much of which I adore. It is no lesser an artistic phenomenon just because I don't consider it to be Prog but although I can discern some of the ingredients of Krautrock in Prog,  I cannot testify to the opposite being true (but that just might be me) You can derive whatever meanings you like from what I write but it doesn't make your conclusions demonstrably true. I do accept that musical developments in countries outside England would have been pivotal in the subsequent developments and directions of Prog Rock but I still believe the consensus view that it's origins are predominantly from English culture. The following authors also arrive at the same conclusion and do attempt with varying degrees of success, to explain the reasons from a cultural, social and economic perspective:

Music Of Yes: Structure and Vision in Progressive Rock - Bill Martin
Listening to the Future: The Time of Progressive Rock 1968-1978 - Bill Martin
Rocking the Classics: EnglishWink Progressive Rock and the Counterculture - Ed McCann
The Progressive Rock Files - Jerry Lucky
Beyond and Before: Progressive Rock since the 1960's - Paul Hegarty
Citizens of Hope and Glory : The Story of Progressive Rock - Stephen Lambe
Yes is the Answer (and Other Prog Rock Tales) - Marc Weingarten
The Strawberry Bricks Guide to progressive Rock - Charles Snider


There are others but I ain't read them.

I also acknowledge that just because I cannot find a tome that asserts Prog Rock's origins lie predominantly outside late 60's England does not mean it can't be true.

Yes, Country does have a strong connection with its roots (as all folk music does) but American folk music (or broadly Country and Western if you prefer) is a global phenomenon unlike say, French, Italian or Eastern European folk music. The reason for that it is not bound (restricted/curtailed/limited/forestalled - you choose) by its cultural roots.

On a lighter note, if country music can be reduced to' music played in the countryside' we can but pray you don't embark on a historical analysis of cock rock.Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:50
Nothing is created in isolation. Every music style and music scene develops from the influences that are around it and adds its own cultural leanings on those influences.

The entire music scene world-wide was in a state of flux in the late 60s, and all of it was influencing each other. England took influence from America and America in turn took influence from what was happening in England. Those in Europe (most notably Germany, Holland and Italy) took influence from what was happening in England and America and infused it with what was happening in their local scenes. And that includes Zappa and the Mothers, Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Nice, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd. Even the Psychedelic pop-culture of The Monkees and The Beatles played a part in taking what was happening in England and America (or specifically London and San Francisco) underground scenes and bringing it to wider public attention. [The Underground Scene is something of a misnomer anyway]. Trace elements of all those can be found in the emergent post-Psychedelic music scenes of Europe and Scandinavia.

Yet nothing that was happening at that post-Hippy/Psychedelic time was a coherent, identifiable style of music: no two English bands were alike; no two German bands were alike, and none of this could be called Symphonic or Krautrock (or Kosmische Musik). They all branched off in different, parallel directions that we later (in the early 70s) grouped back together under the banner of Progressive Rock and the subsets of Symphonic Rock, Krautrock, Canterbury Scene etc. So what we have is a high degree of lazy categorisation. Some German bands dismiss the Krautrock tag (and rightly so) and some English bands have dismissed the Prog Rock tag (famously: Robert Fripp and David Gilmour). 

However, without the English Progressive Rock scene, (that began in the late 60s and developed in the first 3 years or so of the 70s), Progressive Rock as an umbrella term would not exist and many of the subsequent styles of music that draw upon that scene would not have developed as they did. They would have developed of course, that cannot be denied, but not in the way that they did and I doubt we'd be spending a Sunday morning 40 years later arguing the toss if they hadn't. Even the introduction of Krautrock (Can, Amon Duul II, Tangerine Dream, etc.), Dutch Prog (Focus, Supersister, Ekseption, etc.) and Italian Progressive Rock (PFM, Le Orme, New Trolls, etc.) to a world-wide audience can be directly attributed to the rising popularity of the Progressive Rock music from England (and later Britain).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:51
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

 
I also acknowledge that just because I cannot find a tome that asserts Prog Rock's origins lie predominantly outside late 60's England does not mean it can't be true.


That is all, thank you.  And as for the conclusions, as I already said, they are derived ones.  I know you didn't say it expressly but that would be the implication of tying prog rock to supposed English origins.  You may not agree with that and that is your choice but that is how I see it.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:54
So no structure then?

I think there are many and various forms and adaptations. Prog rock is about what is being said musically and if a fluent instrumental section turns  up (playing Genesis at the moment) then why get him to stop because of a chorus that really needs to be sung.

It's more of a social cultural thing. Prog rock is head trip music not dance (guitar break in Aqualung notable exception Wink) and so the requirements are different. This is why it has so many symphonic features - very nifty when a harmony is set up in a section that comes to fruition in the next but that's not often.

This is probably where punk, the industry and conformist media make there more unwelcome presence felt. Force prog to a formula so it can be understood, marketed and everyone can meet their deadlines and get to the pub.

Structural identity might be more understood were prog to have the same sort of classical terms allegro, andante, molto presto, largo that identify the pieces in many classical works. Of course that's not very rock and roll which is very reactionary and constricting.  What's more you get a higher royalty if pieces are identified by titles- which is why early KC got subtitles. Sort of 21st Century mezzanine Man... ground breaking...

Anyway if there is a formula ABACAB style (one might think  Am9?) the first to get really annoyed are prog rock fans. So I'll conclude this largo section with a nyet, no pop song structure, just forms and imagination closer to classical music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 04:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Nothing is created in isolation. Every music style and music scene develops from the influences that are around it and adds its own cultural leanings on those influences.

The entire music scene world-wide was in a state of flux in the late 60s, and all of it was influencing each other. England took influence from America and America in turn took influence from what was happening in England. Those in Europe (most notably Germany, Holland and Italy) took influence from what was happening in England and America and infused it with what was happening in their local scenes. And that includes Zappa and the Mothers, Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Nice, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd. Even the Psychedelic pop-culture of The Monkees and The Beatles played a part in taking what was happening in England and America (or specifically London and San Francisco) underground scenes and bringing it to wider public attention. [The Underground Scene is something of a misnomer anyway]. Trace elements of all those can be found in the emergent post-Psychedelic music scenes of Europe and Scandinavia.

Yet nothing that was happening at that post-Hippy/Psychedelic time was a coherent, identifiable style of music: no two English bands were alike; no two German bands were alike, and none of this could be called Symphonic or Krautrock (or Kosmische Musik). They all branched off in different, parallel directions that we later (in the early 70s) grouped back together under the banner of Progressive Rock and the subsets of Symphonic Rock, Krautrock, Canterbury Scene etc. So what we have is a high degree of lazy categorisation. Some German bands dismiss the Krautrock tag (and rightly so) and some English bands have dismissed the Prog Rock tag (famously: Robert Fripp and David Gilmour). 

However, without the English Progressive Rock scene, (that began in the late 60s and developed in the first 3 years or so of the 70s), Progressive Rock as an umbrella term would not exist and many of the subsequent styles of music that draw upon that scene would not have developed as they did. They would have developed of course, that cannot be denied, but not in the way that they did and I doubt we'd be spending a Sunday morning 40 years later arguing the toss if they hadn't. Even the introduction of Krautrock (Can, Amon Duul II, Tangerine Dream, etc.), Dutch Prog (Focus, Supersister, Ekseption, etc.) and Italian Progressive Rock (PFM, Le Orme, New Trolls, etc.) to a world-wide audience can be directly attributed to the rising popularity of the Progressive Rock music from England (and later Britain).

I am not denying the influence of English prog rock as not just a genre but a culture of the 60s and 70s on the larger prog rock movement.  But there is still a difference between highlighting England as undoubtedly one of the most important or even THE most important originator of prog and between saying prog rock's cultural origins are English and English alone.  As you have conceded, prog rock of some sort could well have come about without the English scene's existence and that is all that I wanted to convey.  To make a statement that prog's cultural origins are English without reference to America or Germany is very restrictive (and in my view inaccurate).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:01
Ok point taken. It's been fun. Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog epics? Back to topic

Edited by ExittheLemming - April 06 2014 at 05:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:02
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:



Yes, Country does have a strong connection with its roots (as all folk music does) but American folk music (or broadly Country and Western if you prefer) is a global phenomenon unlike say, French, Italian or Eastern European folk music. The reason for that it is not bound (restricted/curtailed/limited/forestalled - you choose) by its cultural roots.

This brings to mind the popular BBC Light Service radio programme of the 1960s called Country Meets Folk.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

  Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog topics

corrected Tongue


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:18
^LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:18
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Ok It's been fun. Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog epics? Back to topic
Yup. 

But what is there to say? There isn't a predefined format that all adhere to, many can perhaps be over-analysed as re-structured or extended forms of simpler(!) rock song structures, but there are no rules for that either. I agree with you that most of it is skilful arrangement. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:43
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Nothing is created in isolation. Every music style and music scene develops from the influences that are around it and adds its own cultural leanings on those influences.

The entire music scene world-wide was in a state of flux in the late 60s, and all of it was influencing each other. England took influence from America and America in turn took influence from what was happening in England. Those in Europe (most notably Germany, Holland and Italy) took influence from what was happening in England and America and infused it with what was happening in their local scenes. And that includes Zappa and the Mothers, Iron Butterfly, Jimi Hendrix, The Nice, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd. Even the Psychedelic pop-culture of The Monkees and The Beatles played a part in taking what was happening in England and America (or specifically London and San Francisco) underground scenes and bringing it to wider public attention. [The Underground Scene is something of a misnomer anyway]. Trace elements of all those can be found in the emergent post-Psychedelic music scenes of Europe and Scandinavia.

Yet nothing that was happening at that post-Hippy/Psychedelic time was a coherent, identifiable style of music: no two English bands were alike; no two German bands were alike, and none of this could be called Symphonic or Krautrock (or Kosmische Musik). They all branched off in different, parallel directions that we later (in the early 70s) grouped back together under the banner of Progressive Rock and the subsets of Symphonic Rock, Krautrock, Canterbury Scene etc. So what we have is a high degree of lazy categorisation. Some German bands dismiss the Krautrock tag (and rightly so) and some English bands have dismissed the Prog Rock tag (famously: Robert Fripp and David Gilmour). 

However, without the English Progressive Rock scene, (that began in the late 60s and developed in the first 3 years or so of the 70s), Progressive Rock as an umbrella term would not exist and many of the subsequent styles of music that draw upon that scene would not have developed as they did. They would have developed of course, that cannot be denied, but not in the way that they did and I doubt we'd be spending a Sunday morning 40 years later arguing the toss if they hadn't. Even the introduction of Krautrock (Can, Amon Duul II, Tangerine Dream, etc.), Dutch Prog (Focus, Supersister, Ekseption, etc.) and Italian Progressive Rock (PFM, Le Orme, New Trolls, etc.) to a world-wide audience can be directly attributed to the rising popularity of the Progressive Rock music from England (and later Britain).

I am not denying the influence of English prog rock as not just a genre but a culture of the 60s and 70s on the larger prog rock movement.  But there is still a difference between highlighting England as undoubtedly one of the most important or even THE most important originator of prog and between saying prog rock's cultural origins are English and English alone.  As you have conceded, prog rock of some sort could well have come about without the English scene's existence and that is all that I wanted to convey.  To make a statement that prog's cultural origins are English without reference to America or Germany is very restrictive (and in my view inaccurate).
*back off topic*

I do question how "Prog" any of it would have been without that early influence from the English scene. How Prog would the Italian scene have been without ELP, Gentle Giant, Van der Graaf Generator and Genesis? How Prog would the Dutch scene have been without Jethro Tull, Soft Machine, ELP and The Nice? How Prog would the German scene have been without Pink Floyd, Soft Machine and Hawkwind (not withstanding that a lot of Krautrock's rock influence comes from VU, Zappa and Hendrix, the space rock is undeniably from Floyd and to a lesser extent Hawkwind)? [Eloy without Floyd?]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 05:50
No doubt the Dutch and Italian scenes, esp Dutch, were heavily influenced by British prog and arguably owed their very existence to it.  But I wouldn't go nearly that far with krautrock.  Psychedelic rock was hardly exclusive to UK, it emerged at roughly the same time in USA as well.  Jefferson Airplane would have done very well as source material in the absence of Floyd.  Would Krautrock have been somewhat different in such an event?  Possibly, but it could well have been prog of some sort as the work of minimalist composers was not dependent on Pink Floyd.  The timing of Doors development as a band is also too close to PF to say they could not have come about without the latter and they too would have been fertile material for Krautrock.  Strange Days (the track, that is) does have a strong Krautrock flavour to it, except it's before Krautrock.

Edited by rogerthat - April 06 2014 at 05:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:02
It is not outside the realm of sanity to say strong signs, symptoms, even clear evidence of early progressive rock can be found in America well before Floyd, Emerson, or even Zappa.   Rock started in the US, it follows rock that progresses would also.   But as with all good ideas that no one seems to want to pick up on, someone picked the ball up and never let go.   England and America have a fine tradition of freely taking from the other and making better of it.   It happened with comix in the '90s, too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:13
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

England and America have a fine tradition of freely taking from the other and making better of it.    

And I may add that the critics in both countries seem to have had a fine tradition of running down music from the other side.  I used to think it was more about American critics being too harsh on English rock music and then I came across a very scathing review of a Steely Dan concert in UK (London, I think).  I wouldn't have read too much into it but for the fact that the opening para was almost wholly devoted to a rant on American bands being overhyped and failing to live up to their billing while UK bands are much more dependable and yet get ignored.  Something of the sort, can't seem to find the link right now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:15
^^ Like I've stated before, my mind is not necessarily closed to this idea but it seems odd that here we are in 2014 and although Prog Rock is not that well documented a topic, the weight of published opinion appears to contradict the idea. From memory, I think the majority of the authors I referenced were British/European, so what we need perhaps is a well researched Prog history from an American perspective. After all, it's only fairly recently that the prevailing orthodoxy has taken hold that Punk was an American phenomenon imported to the UK by the likes of Malcolm McLaren. (A reality that really upset most of my Scottish punk pals back in the day)


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 06 2014 at 06:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:18
I wanted to ask you earlier about the 'origin' of the authors too.  I am neither American nor British and am not willing to discount the importance of American pyschedelic rock as an influence.  Can for instance cite Velvet Underground as one of their chief influences on the rock side of things. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:24
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^^ Like I've stated before, my mind is not necessarily closed to this idea but it seems odd that here we are in 2014 and although Prog Rock is not that well documented a topic, the weight of published opinion appears to contradict the idea. From memory, I think the majority of the authors I referenced were British/European, so what we need perhaps is a well researched Prog history from an American perspective. After all, it's only fairly recently that the prevailing orthodoxy has taken hold that Punk was an American phenomenon imported to the UK by the likes of Malcolm McLaren. (A reality that really upset most of my Scottish punk pals back in the day)

Agreed--  the Punk thing is interesting, to me Punk is British through-and-through.   I think the issue is that rock is without doubt entirely American and so you have all incarnations in this enormous country at any given time.   The notion that some US bands were playing a kind of punky rock in, say, the mid-60s, is entirely possible but Blighty still would win the contest of where Punk as we know it started, it seems to me.   Probably Prog as well but it is less clear, which also makes it much more interesting.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:26
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


Ok point taken. It's been fun. Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog epics?

Back to topic


It sure was...is!
Always fun listening to you guys rant though.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2014 at 06:33
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Ok point taken. It's been fun. Wasn't this thread about the structure of long winded, tangential, labyrinthine pompous Prog epics? Back to topic

It's simply about prog song structure.
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