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Gerinski 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5090
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 Topic: Catalonia's aim for independence from Spain
Posted: July 22 2014 at 15:53 |
As a Catalonian (although living in Belgium since 2004) I am just curious to hear what the perception is internationally about this subject. Do you know what Catalonia is? (in case you don't it's a region in the north-east of Spain, capital city Barcelona, with some historical and cultural divergences from the rest of Spain) Are any of you aware of a conflict between Catalonia and Spain itself? Are you aware that in the last 1.5 ~ 2 years Catalonia is strengthening its claims for the right of becoming an independent state if a majority of its population so desires? Are you aware that Catalonia is trying to organise a referendum on 9th November to ask its citizens if they would prefer to become an independent state? Are you aware that the Spanish government is trying hard to forbid such a referendum? In general, if the population of a certain region declare in democratic majority that they do not feel themselves as belonging to their current political state (due to historical and cultural divergences), do you think the people of that region should be allowed to split into an independent state?
I guess that internationally this subject is little known (for sure even less outside of Europe) but I'm just curious.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 65933
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 16:15 |
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As a mongrel who lives in the mixing bowl culture of the US, I really have no comprehension of the way people think in the rest of the world. Any excuse to cause unrest I suppose.
I don't know that I was aware of the Catalonian issue. I know that I have heard of the Basques having issues within Spain.
So many of the world's problems are caused by this way of thinking. We are all humans of Earth and as such who cares if you are green, brown, yellow, white or black and whether or not you worship God, Allah, Buddah, or the great god of Spaghetti and Meatballs. Do what makes you happy as long as you don't infringe upon what makes me happy.
As a common person, you are most likely going to be screwed whether or not your political leader is a Spaniard or a Catalonian. I don't think that that will change. If one thing history has taught many people die fighting for these causes, but only a few ever benefit from them.
Edited by rushfan4 - July 22 2014 at 16:16
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14714
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 17:19 |
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I am aware of this issue. I have done extensive trips throughout Europe but sadly few places in Spain but as a speaker of the Spanish language i keep up with thaf world. I also have friends who go there a lot including Catalonia and tell me about the tensions.
My question for you is why would you want to be an independent nation? There are benefits and handicaps of course but economically speaking nations in Europe that break apart from other nations tend to have a difficult time in the world markets. Obvious examples include the former USSR but also Slovakia and former Yugoslavia. Success stories can be found with Slovenia of course but on the whole being an independent nation entails massive bureaucrasies that seems redundant. Living in a country that could easily 50 nations instead of 50 states, i see the advantages of being united despite the problems that arise from idealisms and regional conflicts.
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Luna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 18:01 |
 siLLy puPPy wrote:
My question for you is why would you want to be an independent nation? There are benefits and handicaps of course but economically speaking nations in Europe that break apart from other nations tend to have a difficult time in the world markets. |
I'm not up to date in Catalonia's economic situation, but perhaps they want independence due to Spain's taking economy? 20-30% unemployment is pretty terrifying.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 18:38 |
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As someone who is apparently going blind, I first read that as "California's aim for independence from Spain." Then I was trying to remember what year this was. Firmly convinced myself that it was indeed 2014 and took another look at the title.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 18:53 |
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For the sake of clarity, given that the ETA have now killed > 800 people as the paramilitary wing of Basque nationalism, this is hardly any longer an ideological or democratic debate.These people are terrorists, no different to the IRA and are richly undeserving of the democratic privileges afforded to those who seek peaceful means to end armed struggle e.g. a referendum.
We await the next broken ceasefire and senseless atrocity any day now (keep up on both scum-bags)
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 19:59 |
This will sound ridiculous but as a lifelong fan of FC Barcelona  and lover of Spain in general I am aware of the issue. I think that if a nation, in its most sociological meaning, feels that its geo-political representation doesn't correspond to reality, it should be free to become independent. If Catalonians feel they shouldn't be, and aren't, a part of Spain, then there is an issue there that has to be addressed. Geo-political borders are lines on a map, in theory aiming to represent actual cultural and social divides, but that as we all know is hardly the case in the real world. But to make it closer to reality shouldn't at all be taboo or forbidden by the central government of the big nation, in this case Spain.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
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Points: 16913
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 20:20 |
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Gerard, I'm in the US and have definitely heard of the conflict to answer your first question but have not read enough to comment on your other questions....Sounds awful though reading Iain's post...hope it can be resolved without more of that.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 21:11 |
 Catalonia isn't The Basque Country - they are separated by some 200Km with two other regions (Navarra and Aragon) between them. As far as I know nationalism in Catalonia is non-terrorist.
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What?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: July 22 2014 at 23:25 |
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^OK, I got the basque region and catalonia confused - apologies to all (but my comments on the former still stand)
Edited by ExittheLemming - July 22 2014 at 23:26
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 00:17 |
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Separatism in Catalunya is complete peaceful. Nothing to do with the Etarras of the Pais Vasco, a terrorist organization responsible for hundreds of deaths.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5090
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 01:18 |
Yes the Catalonian independentist movement is completely peaceful and democratic, nothing to do with the terrorism in the Basque land (which it appears coming to an end, thankfully). It's a complex issue, Catalonia has been 300 years belonging politically to Spain. One would assume that if everything was right after such a long time the cultures would have coalesced and Catalans would feel Spanish, but reality is that a sizable part of Catalans have not identified themselves with Spain. Of course now the economy has become so interdependent that indeed many fear the likely negative economical effects that a separation could cause, while others say that such things should not be judged giving priority to the money. A big problem is that those who would like the independence are not a clear majority, recent polls give around 50% split, which means that whichever side would win in a referendum there will be a very big part of the population thinking the contrary. One possible way-out being discussed is converting Spain into a federal state. We will see. |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14714
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 08:40 |
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I have always had the impression that Spain allows generous autonomy to its regions. For example Catalan snd Galician and even Basque are allowed as regional languages. I assume this is so precisely because Spain is an artificially contructed nation. Personally i think going it alone would be counter productive but i don t know the details of living there. I think Catalonia, as well as the rest of the world, could benefit from the lessons of the co ops in Madrigon. As the world economic situation deteriorates we need to implement alternative economies. Whether you feel its suffocating to be a part of a larger nation as a whole will ultimately help you decide which path to take.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5090
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 09:39 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I have always had the impression that Spain allows generous autonomy to its regions. For example Catalan snd Galician and even Basque are allowed as regional languages. |
Yes it has been so in the last 30 years or so (not allowing a local language would be quite unacceptable in a 21st century democratic country). The problems for Catalonia belonging to Spain are basically two. First, in the whole of Spain Catalonia will always be a minority. Second, there exists in Spain an ideological line of thinking which is not in favour of regional cultures, those following this ideology believe that a state should represent a quite homogeneous culture, and therefore believe that small regional cultures are things of the past, that they should be given up and that an effort should be made to establish the Spanish culture all over the state as the "only true SPanish culture". Needless to say many Catalans are frightened at the thought. This ideological line of thinking was most fiercely executed by dictator Franco who for 40 years heavily prosecuted anything related to the Catalan and Basque cultures. Although he died in 1975 this is not forgotten by many Catalans and fear persists that anything remotely similar to that could happen again. Nowadays Spain is a fully democratic country but that ideological line of thinking persists in many Spanish people, and the political party which represents the ideological heritage of Franco but adapted to democracy is now governing, with absolute majority. This party (Partido Popular) is clearly in favour of recentralization and of decreasing regional autonomy and cultures, even if of course in a modern democratic state they have to avoid being too obvious when they talk about it. So in Catalonia there exists a fear that remaining in a Spain governed by such a party (and with Catalonia being a minority) is a threat for maintaining the local culture and a big risk of losing the autonomy which was regained in the last 30 years. Then of course there are also economical arguments since Catalonia is one of the economical motors of Spain and a lot of the money generated in Catalonia goes to subsidize less developed regions. That's it in a nutshell.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 65933
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 09:44 |
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The haves do not want to support the have-nots. Now that sounds more like American culture in a nutshell.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14714
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:07 |
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Yeah, it does sound like the US. Particularly the state in which i live California. The US has passed treaties which have devastated many parts of the Central American economy and because we are doing so well here we have problems with illegal immigrants. If you weren't subsidizing your neighbours you would probably have the same problem. I keep hearing how bad the economy in Spain is in general and i imagine it is being subsidized by the EU. I understand the fears of the past but we live in a brave new world now and everything is so global now.
Which side are you on? Do you want independence or to remain in Spain? I've heard that Portugal actually is contemplating rejoining Spain. Tough call. There are pluses and minuses to every situation. The state of California could be the world's eighth largest economy if it were an independent nation. I often wonder how much better off it would be if it weren't subsidizing some of the slacker states, but then again if it gets too bad people just start to shoot each other in this gun luvin' land.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14714
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:08 |
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BTW your location says Belgium. Do you represent Spain in Brussells by chance?
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14714
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:09 |
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Also, i really wanna see all those way cool Gaudi buildings and the Dali museum in Figueres.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5090
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Posted: July 24 2014 at 01:31 |
I'm Catalan, I moved to Belgium in 2004 moved by a Belgian woman and job opportunities in the private sector, nothing to do with politics at all, I am not representing Catalonia nor anything like that. Nothing to do with the EU. Well, it's a tough call, if I think as a romantic idealist I would like to see Catalonia independent, I know we should forget about the past but the centralist mentality is still very strong in Spain so we can not help fearing losing again what we have achieved. On the other hand as a realist and educated person I know that independence could have severe drawbacks, especially economically and most importantly it could worsen the social tension between the parties, which could be extremely dangerous, nobody wants violence, preserving peace and healthy living together has to be the top priority and that can not be put at risk. |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5090
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Posted: July 24 2014 at 01:38 |
I don't think most Portuguese people would like to become Spanish, however some people talk about a new Iberian Federal Nation which could include Spanish, Portuguese, Catalans and Basques (and perhaps Galicians and Navarros) as a federation of states as a possible solution to the conflicts. That could certainly be a scenario. (we need to pay attention to terminology, in the US you have many states forming a nation. In Spain we call it opposite, we say that Catalonia or the Basque Land are nations within the Spanish state)
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Catalonia's aim for independence from Spain
