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Joined: June 10 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
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Points: 4671
Topic: Scottish independence referendum, 2014 Posted: July 23 2014 at 01:37
The recent post about Spain and Catalonia triggered me to wonder about Scottish independence from the U.K. I know nothing about it other than a glance at the Wikipedia page. What is driving it? Will Wales and N.Ireland follow? (And would the U.K. have to get a new name?)
The weird thing about the voting eligibility for this (the last time I checked*) was that you only need to be resident to vote. This means that overseas students studying at a Scottish university, foreign nationals (including the English, Irish and Welsh) resident in Scotland for work purposes, who will probably leave in a couple of years get to vote on the destiny of the land of my birth (and I can't - I was born in Scotland and lived there for circa 20 years, have a UK passport but live in Australia - although I can vote in UK general elections) Bear in mind I haven't lived in the UK since 2000 so may have got my facts wrong but would an MP who lives in England but represents a Scottish constituency be eligible to vote? Similarly, there are some English military personnel posted in Scotland who could also theoretically be allowed to vote. My cynical nature tells me this is being driven by political expediency to ensure they get a YES vote, i.e.in my experience Scots who live outside Scotland would be more likely to vote NO as they arguably have a better appreciation of just how vulnerable a 'stand alone' Scotland would be without the protection, support and subsidy provided by both Westminster and the EEC. I notice they've also reduced the voting age from 18 to 16 years and have chosen the year as that of hosting the Commonwealth Games. The real burning question though remains unanswered: ain't it unconstitutional that just one territorial electorate get to vote on an outcome that will affect the entire UK in such a profound way? There are for me some very serious unresolved issues about this whole referendum e.g. defence, currency, exports (including the vexed question of the sovereignty of North Sea oil and gas reserves) and whether we would be allowed to be a member of the European Union are just some of the questions I hope they've thought through properly.
* a group of Scottish solicitors who currently live and practice in England were planning a legal challenge in the courts re their ineligibility to vote but I dunno if they got anywhere with this?
We can of course console ourselves that at least the independence rabble rouser who lives in Spain might not get to vote (Shir Sean Connery)
Given the chance, I'd vote a resounding NO to independence - I just can't see Scotland supporting itself if we cut all ties with England (who would be our biggest export market and would anyone in their right mind risk jeopardising that with the imposition of a currency conversion on all transactions?)
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
Posted: July 23 2014 at 04:16
^^^ I'm inclined to agree.
I've no connection to Scotland but I don't like the idea of breaking up the UK and the position of Alex Salmond seems profoundly arrogant. He has a shopping list of wants/expectations like keeping the pound, joining the Eurozone, all of which he seemed to think would come automatically with independence. I've always thought it bizarre that although he wants independence from London he's happy to hand a large degree of power to Brussels. which would be the mirror opposite of being independent. It seems 'independence' is just one of those emotive words that's tossed around willy nilly to evoke a reaction in people, with little regard for its actual meaning, the double think behind Scotlands plan for independence or its implications.
Whatever happens it's in the hands of the Scottish. I hope they know what they're doing.
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 04:21
Personally (I regard myself as English, British and European - I am neither a monarchist nor a nationalist - I have Albion as my location because it is apolitical) I don't care that much about territorial disputes over lines on a map, the world would be a better place if people didn't become so fixated over nationalism and where imaginary borders are placed in a landscape - the grass that grows on that land and the animals that graze upon it couldn't give a flying hoot... those are not English cows and Scottish cows, they are simply cows (some are just further away than others). But I believe we can keep our cultural identities and remain part of larger social, political and economic collectives that are not restricted to arbitrarily determined cartographic boundaries - this is why I'm pro-Europe and pro-Commonwealth and pro-World and pro-Human yet remain English. We should be proud of what makes us different and respect that in others, but we also should be proud of the commonality that makes us the same. If only we could spend more time celebrating all that unites us and less time fretting over what separates us.
However, if the Scots want independence then good luck to them, if the Welsh or the Cornish follow then good luck to them too, if then Wessex, Mercia or Anglia strive for independence then so be it, but there comes a point when you wonder what all the arguing is really about. My attitude is not about Scottish or Welsh nationalism but entirely due to English Nationalist being a wholly disagreeable and dislikeable bunch (even in its apparently sanitised form of UKIP) - I see nothing to be proud of in English Nationalism and their bigoted racist idealism, but fortunately if England ends up being an independent country by attrition we will remain a cosmopolitan, multi-cultural and multi-national country.
For humorous appeal I'd like the new name to be "The Untied Kingdom". [puns are good, we need more punning]. I've never been a fan of the abbreviation UK or the name United Kingdom, the full title is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but no one ever abbreviates that to UKGBNI or UKoGBaNI - we natives tended to use GB not UK but that's fallen out of favour in recent history.
Geographically the 700 islands (of which 137 are inhabited) that make up the British Isles will still be called The British Isles and the main island will still be called Great Britain. [the "Great" part of the name has nothing to do with self-image, imperialism or delusions of grandeur - it merely refers to the largest island in the archipelago just as Gran Canaria refers to the largest of the Canary Islands]. While we could revert back to the older name of Albion for the main island I don't think that is likely. The Scottish will still have to share the island of Great Britain with the English whether they are independent or not and since most of us live on the main island both nationalities will forever remain "British".
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 05:07
I like that first paragrpah Dean, and agree with much of it, but in truth the Yes brigade in most independence undertakings are the most obsessed with those arbitary boundaries you mention. I also can't help feeling there may be quite a lot of generic anti English feeling in the Yes camp. In my ideal world there wouldn't be a push for independence, there would be a push to challenge the power structure within the political class to get a better deal for everyone in the UK, rather having to choose from a narrow selection of neo liberal crony capitalists and racist mavericks.
^ Yep, although Scotland has an exemplary race relations
record, in some blue and white quarters, it doesn't quite stretch to
include a comparable tolerance and respect of like skinned neighbours
the English alas...We don't have any of the far right thuggery that Dean
alludes to but take some cutting edge religious sectarianism wedded to
parochial bigotry on a really bad diet and remove our favourite scapegoat (the English) and watch what happens I
just can't see what's to be gained by attaining complete independence
apart from the vainglorious chutzpah at being invited to sit at a table
in Brussels, completely powerless behind a little Saltire e.g. the UK
will lose one third of its land mass but only 8% of it's population and I
can't even guess how many tax payers there has to be to make Scotland's
economy sustainable. Scotland's 59 seats in Westminster would
disappear, which I think would have resulted in a Conservative majority
at the last election so the Labour party would have an even harder time
in England after Scottish independence methinks....As Blacksword suggests, the best way forward for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland has to involve devolution or delegation of Westminster's powers. Could the Scots
even get out the starting blocks if they were saddled with a pro-rated
share of the UK National debt before they even start? (and that's just
scratching the surface)
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:15
To partly answer the OP question, as far as Wales and NI are concerned, the answer is no, we would not follow suit immediately. In Scotland, the SNP has made the kind of breakthrough that my party, Plaid Cymru, can only dream of.
What people have missed, though, is a growing rebellion against centralisation (it is this that is partly the reason for the Scottish independence referendum, that and a hatred of the English) in Whitehall, and that is something that folk in Northern England, Devon/Cornwall, rural Midlands & etc. are beginning to really unite around.
The model of government in the UK is broken. Dean made reference to UKIP. That is merely a (very) populist political nascent movement which reflects the sheer frustration at the bureaucracy, favouritism, establishment, bloody sheer ineptitude which is a part of much of our modern society.
It will change, because everything does. My view is that a decentralised, and, yes, parochial, state will emerge. That also applies to the EU, quite the worst example of statism since, well, its predecessors, the Roman Empire and Christendom. Look how they ended.
Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:19
I'm not too familiar with the Scottish case, what are their main drivers for wanting independence (although if I understand well everything points that the result will be a clear NO anyway). I'm not really aware if England has been often hostile towards Scottish culture and their idiosyncrasy.
But as a Catalan I can understand independentist tendencies.
Sure, we should tend to get more united not more separated, we ara all the same, Europe means that states are not truly independent anymore anyway, better together than separated... all of these are nice words and in principle very reasonable.
And it is said that it is by traveling that nationalisms are cured, I have traveled quite a lot and it's already 13 years that I do not live in Spain, I have good friends from many countries and cultures, so surely I should think that the Catalan nationalism is a thing of parochial fools who should awake and get out see the world instead of being so selfish.
And yet I do understand them, and although I am not a fanatic, I would like to see Catalonia as an independent state, I have seen many times the Spanish central government messing up with what the Catalan government would like to do and finally prohibiting it, even in recent times, and Catalans are quite fed up of having to ask permission to Spain for everything they would like to do.
The EU is alright but if one day we will all be forced to speak in German, breakfast with bratwurst sausages, take sour cabbage as side dish instead of salad or french fries and celebrate Oktoberfest instead of our traditional festivities, I predict that quite many people are not going to like it.
Sure there are many challenges, staying in the EU (and the euro currency in case of Catalonia), what about defence, possible loss of trust by the financial markets and many more, but in my job I have learnt that challenges are often less impossible than they seem, it's a matter of doing things right. It's a tough call though I admit, 100 years ago it was different but now the impact can be much larger and more unpredictable.
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Posted: July 24 2014 at 12:58
Gerinski wrote:
I'm not too familiar with the Scottish case, what are their main drivers for wanting independence (although if I understand well everything points that the result will be a clear NO anyway). I'm not really aware if England has been often hostile towards Scottish culture and their idiosyncrasy.
But as a Catalan I can understand independentist tendencies.
I lived in Edinburgh for almost a year in the early 80's and never experienced any animosity towards me as an Englishman during that time. For over 200 years since the union of the two nations I think we've gotten along pretty amiably and both benefitted from the combined identity of Great Britain working together rather than as two bickering nations fighting each other in a succession of little wars and battles. The traditional rivalry of "the auld enemy" has in general been very one-sided and south-facing, which probably annoys the Scots quite a bit. On the battle-field and footie-pitch England usually looks to France or Germany rather than Scotland, but when you've waged war on as many nations and been humiliated by as many national teams as the English have you're spoilt for choice. Scotland it seems can never forget the battles of the middle-ages while England never seems to be able to remember them.
I don't know how much the political and economic laws passed in Westminster have deliberately disadvantaged Scotland, my guess is not as much as the Scots perceive but any law passed by a government 700 miles away in another country will always appear biased to some degree even if you are proportionally represented in that parliament by your own elected MPs. The Scots can be a possessive tribe, "that's Scottish oil", "that's Scottish land", "that's Scottish money", "those are Scotch eggs" (pies, whisky, tape, mist...). The English are more inclined to share, especially things that don't belong to them, we're very generous like that.
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Posted: July 24 2014 at 13:14
I know two things about Scotland - Karen Gillan is yummy and "Several Species of Small, Furry Animals Gathered Together In A Cave and Grooving With a Pict" wins silliest song title for me.
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
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Points: 5093
Posted: July 24 2014 at 16:18
Dean wrote:
I lived in Edinburgh for almost a year in the early 80's and never experienced any animosity towards me as an Englishman during that time.
TX, well in the Catalonian thread I just posted two videos by English people explaining a bit the Catalonian case, they are a bit long so I don't expect you to watch them, but just in case you would watch them, I would like to hear if you think that it's the same as the Scottish / English case. I can tell you, being a Catalan and traveling through Spain you may get unpleasant experiences, as the videos will confirm (not always of course, many Spaniards are very nice to Catalans).
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Scottish independence referendum, 2014
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Gerinski wrote:
