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How Important are lyrics to you in Prog music

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 20:06
As Doc said, caring can have a negative connotation.  bloodnarfer meant he wouldn't care, as in he would be indifferent UNLESS the lyrics were overly cheesy and DISTRACTED from the overall experience.  In fact, had he said, "IF the lyrics distracted from the overall experience, I don't care", it wouldn't make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 20:13
^ Odd ... but I'll keep that in mind.

@ SteveG: I see this thread, the "Singers: ..." thread, and the "Songwriters" thread on this forum to be connected. I'd recommend you to go to the third one (the last three pages) if you want answers.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 20:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 20:18
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

unless = except in the circumstances that.  Or an easier way to think of unless is as "if....not".  If the lyrics are good, I like the song.  If the lyrics are bad I do not like the song.  That can be shortened to one sentence: "Unless the lyrics are bad, I like the song."
Yeah, ... so when he says ...
Originally posted by bloodnarfer bloodnarfer wrote:

Unless the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care.
... that's another way of saying "I don't really care for the song except in the circumstances when the lyrics are cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience", which still sounds unusual to me.
Unusual and still wrong. Or it stills sounds unusual because it is still wrong. You have not correctly paraphrased Ryan or Chester, so again you have inverted the original meaning.

The problem you are experiencing is due to Ryan's comment being incomplete and you are presuming the missing ending incorrectly. 

"Unless the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care."

He is not saying he "doesn't care for the song", he is saying he "doesn't care what the lyrics are"


/edit: The lyrics are the subject of the sentence you can show that by rearranging Ryan's sentence:

"I don't really care what the lyrics are unless they are overtly cheesy/cliché[d] and distract from the experience" 

Another way of looking at it is to substitute "care" for the synonym "mind" 

"Unless the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliché[d] and distract from the experience I don't really mind."

or 

"I don't really mind the lyrics unless they are unless they are overtly cheesy/cliché[d] and distract from the experience"


Edited by Dean - July 23 2014 at 20:48


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 21:10
I think you explained it better than I did, Dean.  Thanks.  And uh, Steve, sorry for hijacking the thread man, it was not my intent.  But, for 30 large, I will return the thread to you safe and sound.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 21:16
^ Yep, Dean actually laid it down very well.

Like I was saying, ...
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

@ SteveG: I see this thread, the "Singers: ..." thread, and the "Songwriters" thread on this forum to be connected. I'd recommend you to go to the third one (the last three pages) if you want answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 21:21
I don't care much about the lyrics of the artists I listen to, and even less about their political views/worldview.  As Darrell said the voice is another instrument in the band which is why foreign language lyrics are every bit as enjoyable to me as English ones. 

If pushed I suppose the lyrics I enjoy most would be whimsical ones, Barrett like stuff.  Or poetic, romantic stuff like early Kate or Heart, the more flowery Genesis/Yes stuff, or Robert Hunter.  But it doesn't matter much.  If the song rocks and I like the music, the lyrics just aren't important to me. 
oh yeah




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 23:10
Not at all.

The only time lyrics are an issue are when they are the focus/the music is secondary. And in that case, I generally don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MothTwiceborn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 03:14

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Let me throw this out before I  pack it in. What makes a GOOD lyricist?

1) Don't hit your audience over the head with your subject matter. We ALL know that war is bad.

2) If you do want to say "War is bad" (for example) then tell a story against that background instead. Pull Out The Pin by Kate Bush springs to mind.

3) Try to make every word count.

4) The emotional tone of the lyrics should match and enhance the emotional tone of the music. Unless you're doing exactly the opposite on purpose :-) (Oasis by Amanda Palmer is a classic example. A bouncy pop song about rape, drunkeness, abortion etc. etc.)

There's probably many more but that's what I'm thinking of at the moment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 03:21
I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 05:39
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.

I don't care about song titles (particularly on instrumentals & foreign languages), I don't care about album art in the context of the music, I just like them as pieces of art or design. I really don't care about the thematic meaning of the music. 

What I care about is does the music move me, connect with me, make me happy, bring me joy, in its own right. I don't need meaningful lyrics, good art or cleaver titles for any of those things,


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - July 24 2014 at 05:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:54
Good Lyrics for good music, to make a perfect balance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 07:09
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.

I don't care about song titles (particularly on instrumentals & foreign languages), I don't care about album art in the context of the music, I just like them as pieces of art or design. I really don't care about the thematic meaning of the music. 

What I care about is does the music move me, connect with me, make me happy, bring me joy, in its own right. I don't need meaningful lyrics, good art or cleaver titles for any of those things,
+1.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 24 2014 at 07:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 08:49
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.
 
I agree.....and it surprises me that so many have said lyrics aren't important when so many members here pride themselves in their clever remarks and intellectualization when answering posts and making comments on many subjects here. That's all about words and language.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 09:03
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Not at all.

The only time lyrics are an issue are when they are the focus/the music is secondary. And in that case, I generally don't like it.


I would say that in cases where the lyrics are front and center and the music is secondary, the lyrics and the vocalist both have to be pretty exceptional to pull it off. If either of those elements are less than exceptional, then yeah, I would agree, I generally don't like it.

Recently I got Big Big Train's English Boy Wonders and that was 80 minutes of lyrics basically with the rest of the band backing up the singer. Unfortunately, the lyrics were not very exceptional (a story about boy meets girl, boy loses girl-whoopee!) and the singer at the time, while having a pleasant enough voice didn't have the chops to pull off an 80-minute lyrically centered album. I like all their other albums, but have to say that one was kind of a disappointment.

On the other hand, people like Peter Hammill, Fish, Waters all have the lyrical and vocal skills to pull off lyric-centered songs/albums and make them sound damn good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 09:12
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.

In my case, it is simply that I don't want to find a reason to dislike the music that doesn't have anything directly to do with the music.  If they make poor album covers, it's fine.  If they write mediocre lyrics, it's fine.  As long as they make good music.  If the cover art or lyrics are also good, that's a bonus.  So...if those snatches of the lyrics that I can make out casually sound interesting enough to me, I will pay more attention to it to see what they are trying to say.  If it isn't, I simply don't pay attention.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 09:14
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

 
I agree.....and it surprises me that so many have said lyrics aren't important when so many members here pride themselves in their clever remarks and intellectualization when answering posts and making comments on many subjects here. That's all about words and language.
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If I want something clever, I can read it in a book.  I LISTEN to music and the first thing or rather things I hear are the tones, the notes and their organisation.  It takes a little extra effort for me to push that to the background and focus only on the lyrics.  Especially when the lyrics are not simple, direct and poignant with something worthwhile to say...and in my experience, that is rarely the case in prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 09:18
^ That ... and this. Riding a high tide on two threads at the same time, Dr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silverpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 09:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm kind of surprised by how many people who don't really care about the content of lyrics unless they're exceptionally bad or good, aren't the lyrics' content usually the main cues to the thematic meaning of the music? Along with song titles, cover art etc.

If the music is either instrumental, or in a language I don't understand, then the latter aspects become even more important.

In my case, it is simply that I don't want to find a reason to dislike the music that doesn't have anything directly to do with the music.  If they make poor album covers, it's fine.  If they write mediocre lyrics, it's fine.  As long as they make good music.  If the cover art or lyrics are also good, that's a bonus.  So...if those snatches of the lyrics that I can make out casually sound interesting enough to me, I will pay more attention to it to see what they are trying to say.  If it isn't, I simply don't pay attention.  


Exactly my take on this as well.
Probably because I don't really understand English (the discussion above was too subtle for me LOL ) it just happens to be the "Lingua Franca" of the music I listen to. I'm not sure I'm able to make out what is cheesy or not, so I live in ignorant bliss and just enjoy the music.


Edited by silverpot - July 24 2014 at 09:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bloodnarfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 10:26
LOL
Unless I'm mistaken, this is the only forum on the internet where I can find 10 new comments arguing about my diction.

Today I learned I should probably stay out of topics about lyrics, I have a clumsy way with words Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote genbanks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 11:20
For me an instrumental piece could be as great as a song or a piece with some lyrics. But, ok, in the case of a musical piece that has lyrics, the lyrics are very important for me. Of course I prefer a great musical piece with mediocre lyrics than a mediocre song with great lyrics. I tink that lyrics are an integral part of the progressive rock. The lyrics on prog rock are far over the lyrics on pop, rock  or even jazz. Lyrics on prog rock are deeper, more intellectual sometimes, and not only love lyrics or about broken relations. Not always the lyrics tell a story, but musical pieces centered on a story line developed with the lyrics is another trademark of prog rock. With the time and maybe in relation with my bigger domain of english language, I was give more and more importance to lyrics. This allows me to enjoy and interpret much more every musical piece, find meanings and value the quality of the composition and the level of the songwriter.
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