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The Doctor View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 18:40
Caring can be a negative as well as a positive.  "If the lyrics are cheesy/cliche then it makes the experience bad.  But if the lyrics are not cheesy/cliche then I don't care."  The appropriate word there is "unless" in the sentence bloodnarfer wrote.  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 18:25
^ Got anything to back up that theory? Just because someone said it, that doesn't mean it's true.

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by bloodnarfer bloodnarfer wrote:

Unless If the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care.
I believe that's what you meant. Wink
Unless (and I mean unless, not if) he meant the exact opposite of what he wrote, I do believe "unless" is the correct word there.   You don't teach English by chance, do you?  Tongue
I don't believe cheesy/cliche is bloodnarfer's preference (but if it is, then ... WTF?!). But if you meant that as a joke, then I'm sorry I blew it for ya.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 18:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 18:23
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Song lyrics tell the story, or at least try to. How important are lyrics to you in prog music and more importantly, how do you feel about the lyrical abilities of your favorite still active prog artists such as Steven Wilson, Dream Theater, Marillion, Panic Room, Gazpacho, Opeth, Tool, Yes and all?
Not that important to me, really. If the music in a song isn't that interesting, then I probably won't care about the words either. If the music is interesting, then I might consider reading the lyrics on the Internet. The only way to get me interested in what you have to say is if I watch a documentary on the album where the background behind the work is revealed, and that background story is interesting and the lyrics are strong and convincing. I don't really feel like lowering my standards, especially since I'm a songwriter too. I want to learn something from you as a writer.
Strange, I know many songwriters and they seem over-scrutinize other peoples lyrics at times. Why so blasé?
1. I don't know what excessive scrutiny is and what it has to do with the topic.

2. a) "Why so blasé?" A lot of the lyrical work I heard in music is either preachy, smug, overly cryptic, or abstract (written about nothing in particular). The abstract element I hear frequently in prog. Some people write how they feel about things no one can fix. It is my belief that we have a shortage of good lyricists.

2. b) On other occasions some people write about things that just don't resonate with me. For example, "Get 'Em Out By Friday". I don't know jack about real estate. It's a boring subject, and I just don't care for Peter's scenario founded on it. The subject matter needs someone to breath life into it.
D, did anyone tell you that the best songwriters use the least words?


Edited by SteveG - July 23 2014 at 18:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 18:12
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by bloodnarfer bloodnarfer wrote:

Unless If the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care.
I believe that's what you meant. Wink


Unless (and I mean unless, not if) he meant the exact opposite of what he wrote, I do believe "unless" is the correct word there.   You don't teach English by chance, do you?  Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 17:53
Originally posted by bloodnarfer bloodnarfer wrote:

Unless If the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care.
I believe that's what you meant. Wink

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 17:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 17:47
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Song lyrics tell the story, or at least try to. How important are lyrics to you in prog music and more importantly, how do you feel about the lyrical abilities of your favorite still active prog artists such as Steven Wilson, Dream Theater, Marillion, Panic Room, Gazpacho, Opeth, Tool, Yes and all?
Not that important to me, really. If the music in a song isn't that interesting, then I probably won't care about the words either. If the music is interesting, then I might consider reading the lyrics on the Internet. The only way to get me interested in what you have to say is if I watch a documentary on the album where the background behind the work is revealed, and that background story is interesting and the lyrics are strong and convincing. I don't really feel like lowering my standards, especially since I'm a songwriter too. I want to learn something from you as a writer.
Strange, I know many songwriters and they seem over-scrutinize other peoples lyrics at times. Why so blasé?
1. I don't know what excessive scrutiny is and what it has to do with the topic.

2. a) "Why so blasé?" A lot of the lyrical work I heard in music is either preachy, smug, overly cryptic, or abstract (written about nothing in particular). The abstract element I hear frequently in prog. Some people write how they feel about things no one can fix. It is my belief that we have a shortage of good lyricists.

2. b) On other occasions some people write about things that just don't resonate with me. For example, "Get 'Em Out By Friday". I don't know jack about real estate. It's a boring subject, and I just don't care for Peter's scenario founded on it. The subject matter needs someone to breath life into it.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 17:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 16:09
Unless the lyrics are overtly cheesy/cliche and distract from the experience I don't really care.  Like Dayvenkirq said, if I really enjoy a song or an album I will look up the lyrics.  I guess they can ruin the song at worst and be a nice bonus at best.  They aren't that important to me.

Edited by bloodnarfer - July 23 2014 at 16:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 16:01
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Depends on the artist in question and their signature style. With some groups like Hawkwind and Jethro Tull, the lyrics are a main part of a unified aesthetic concept behind their music along with the visual aesthetics. In the case of people like Zappa and Beefheart, the entire music seems to take place entirely inside the songwriter's own mental universe and the idiosyncratic if often goofy lyrics are part of that.

Then there's other groups where the lyrics work more as "scene-setting" than anything else, where I don't pay that much attention because more of the themes are being communicated through the instrumental parts. Much of Yes' output falls into this category I'll say, and to some extent King Crimson too.


I agree with Toaster Mantis....To add on, I prefer to have lyrics that are well conceived,  but I don't expect them for a lot of artists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:58
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:



Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:






Song lyrics tell the story, or at least try to. How important are lyrics to you in prog music and more importantly, how do you feel about the lyrical abilities of your favorite still active prog artists such as Steven Wilson, Dream Theater, Marillion, Panic Room, Gazpacho, Opeth, Tool, Yes and all?






Not that important to me, really. If the music in a song isn't that interesting, then I probably won't care about the words either. If the music is interesting, then I might consider reading the lyrics on the Internet. The only way to get me interested in what you have to say is if I watch a documentary on the album where the background behind the work is revealed, and that background story is interesting and the lyrics are strong and convincing. I don't really feel like lowering my standards, especially since I'm a songwriter too. I want to learn something from you as a writer.
Strange, I know many songwriters and they seem over scrutinize other peoples lyrics at times. Why so blasé?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:54
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Song lyrics tell the story, or at least try to. How important are lyrics to you in prog music and more importantly, how do you feel about the lyrical abilities of your favorite still active prog artists such as Steven Wilson, Dream Theater, Marillion, Panic Room, Gazpacho, Opeth, Tool, Yes and all?
Not that important to me, really. If the music in a song isn't that interesting, then I probably won't care about the words either. If the music is interesting, then I might consider reading the lyrics on the Internet. The only way to get me interested in what you have to say is if I watch a documentary on the album where the background behind the work is revealed, and that background story is interesting and the lyrics are strong and convincing. I don't really feel like lowering my standards, especially since I'm a songwriter too. I want to learn something from you as a writer.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 23 2014 at 15:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:54
Doc's post on page one is right on the money .
For me lyrics are important.....but I won't ignore an album of good music if the lyrics are weak, but well written words definitely enhance my love for a particular band or album.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:43
^Word.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:38
They are by far the least important, the proof is that I like many Neal Morse's albums LOL

Having said that, a nice lyrical content surely gives extra points. It can be the whole lyrical story but sometimes just a short sentence can be nice and give you a smile or a deeper thought. One that just came to my mind from recent albums is from Moon Safari's Diamonds (Himlabacken album): "Tell me what more is a diamond son, than a stone in the blind man's hand".
I think too I probably have some diamonds in me but both myself and all the other people are apparently totally blind LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:35
Originally posted by 33rpm 33rpm wrote:

For me the lyrics are not so important. I can't tell you how many songs I can sing along with and still not know what it is about. I always thought that was strange, but following the posts I see that it is not all that strange at all. Good to know. I can now stop my therapy!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:20
For me the lyrics are not so important. I can't tell you how many songs I can sing along with and still not know what it is about. I always thought that was strange, but following the posts I see that it is not all that strange at all. Good to know. I can now stop my therapy!
Vinyl just sounds better!!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:13
^And who said prog lyrics are silly?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 15:10
Good lyrics make an album/song better.  Bad lyrics make an album/song worse. 

When listening casually, which sadly seems most of the time, than it is more the sonic of the vocals than anything else when it comes to the listening experience.  When listening intently, the lyrics mean more to me, and if they are good it enhances the listening experience and if they are bad they can kill the listening experience.  On the rare occasion that I review an album, I will generally sit down with the lyric book open and give the album an intense listen while reading along.  I do find there to be many nonsense lyrics out there, and they do have a negative effect on me, but if the lyrics are really good and have a good meaning than they can definitely upgrade an album's rating for me.

I'm not really a big fan of Peter Sinfield's lyrics with King Crimson, as I find them to be mostly nonsense; which may be one reason I don't hold them in as high of esteem as many of my PA prog colleagues.  Frank Zappa's lyrics are mostly a turn-off for me, which makes it hard for me to listen to him.  And Genesis' lyrics are distinctly British, and therefore make no sense to me.  And I am sorry, but a concept album that includes severed penises and whatnot, really loses something for me. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:56
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I gotta admit that with Yes the lyrics are something to get used to. At first they read like the aftermath of an explosion in a New Age bookstore, and it might be a reason I don't listen to them that often.
I don't listen to Yes lyrics. Period. Just vocals as an instrument. (I'm silly like that )


 

I do the same thing with Magma…  with good reason.

I fully enjoy Yes lyrics, they definitely resonate with me.  I just wonder how much of writings that I think I understand is the actual idea portrayed.  After many listen’s I still get a sense of wonderment.

There’s just so many times you can muse over fairy tale lyrics.  Aka Genesis…


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:42
^Sheeessh, Dean. Mansun wasn't prog!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:33
They're just a vehicle for a lovely voice

You could say it depends upon the artist, 
But then again it probably doesn't,
While we heap praise on those vocalist,
Trying to decide who is the smartest
Of those who can turn a pen 
To a half decent lyric and then,
Here is the twist,
We'd probably like them just as much,
If they sang alternate pages 
Of Stockholm phone book 
Backwards... 
....in Swahili...
....or double-D-Dutch. 
[did he just sing double de-clutch?]

Never mind the content, feel the delivery,
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
Never mind I'm content to feel your misery,
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo oh),
As you try to decipher this lyrical wizardry,
So how long is a piece of string?
Stringy-stringy-str - ing ing ing,
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
Stringy-stringy-str - ing string.

While most Prog lyrics aren't quite as bad
As we kid ourselves they are,
When we listen to them while driving a car, 
They're not exactly art liter-at-char, 
[But then what Rock, Pop or Folk lyrics ever are?]
They're just a sound to carry a tune,
To give the voice something to sing or croon,
As the singer dances around the room,
Are they supposed to mean that much?
Having a well written lyric is merely 
The icing upon the cake...

The icing on the ca-a-e-a-e-a-e-ake ka-ka
Cakey-cakey-ca-key ca-a-ake.
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
And if it deems to make 
Some form of sense, 
If that doesn't seem dense,
Then that's the cherry on top of the cake
With maybe some sprinkles of course 
And a drizzle of chocolate sauce.
If you're that way inclined.
'cos
That's icing on the ca-a-ake ka-ka-ka
Cakey-cakey-ca-key ca-a-ake.
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),


But I cannot imagine 
That many of us here,
Would rush out an buy 
A book of poetry and verse 
Written by any Prog lyricist 
For better or worst,
Even if we may be tempted 
By their autobiography,
Or book on ancient mythology, 
Or maybe even a novel or two
If they had written one
Hang on that can't be right...
...A novel or two if they'd written a few
Staying up all night, 
Analysing the words for sense within it,
Are they supposed to mean anything under the moon?
Looking for meaning where none had been writ,
We paid the piper but he called the tune
And it all sounds like a big heap of ...

Icing on the ca-a-e-a-e-a-e-ake ka-ka
Cakey-cakey-ca-key ca-a-ake.
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
Prog lyrics aren't quite as bad
As we kid ourselves they a-a-a-are 
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),

So maybe it's all made up 
As we sing along,
With no planning or forethought
Contained in this song
A stream of non-sense-ness,
Improvising lyrics with no idea where they'll run trying to fit words to the solo bass drum and the bass player who's too stoned just to strum for being drowned out by the over-loud keyboardist who is the sound mixer's chum while the vocalist forgets to breath in the right place I confess, 
This has all turned into a bit of a mess
So while I try to work
Out where this went all wrong...
... I think it's time for a middle-eight or maybe six 
so I can take a breather and try to redress 
the phrasing of this song
there's a garble of words I need to fix
Oh bugger I've lost the rhythm.

While most Prog lyrics aren't quite as bad
As we kid ourselves they are,
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
Some are really bad
But only if we can hear them above the din,
Of the guitarist with his mesa boogie plugged in,
Then that's bonus we can all revel in,
Guessing words only to relieve the tension,
Passing winds that wind far away into the *mumbles*
As we pan from left to right, we mishear the tonal mess refrain.

...or was that just a passing train,
Or a cat that's left out in the rain,
Oh go on let it in...
I suppose we really can't complain
At least it's not a condescending lyric by Sting

Stingy-stingy-st - ing ing ing,
(Oooo-whu-oooo, ooo-whe-ooo),
Stingy-stingy-st - ing Sting.





(with apologies to Paul Draper and Jon Anderson, but not Sting)


Edited by Dean - July 23 2014 at 14:43
What?
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