How Important are lyrics to you in Prog music |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 18:42 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 24 2014 at 18:51 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:22 | ||
No, in the sense that if it was an instrumental composition or vocal but just with vocalese instead of words, it would still be eminently listenable. I don't like the idea of first enjoying the musical aspect of it and then on further examination of the lyrics, saying "nah, that's too crappy" and avoiding the composition thereafter. And there is the possibility of that happening if one pays too much attention to lyrics. I have seen people dismiss a song only because there were one or two lines of verse they didn't like. Somehow that just comes across as close minded or emphasising lyrics too much to me.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:36 | ||
I love Dark Side of the Moon and love the lyrics of the album, almost every word of it. But there is also no other prog album or rock album for that matter written that directly and plainly. Now add to that complex and epic music, then it gets too much to pay attention to. It is only in a case like Marillion where most of the proceedings happen by way of vocal verse that I listen to the words. I don't really feel the need AT ALL in the case of Yes and only intermittently when it comes to Genesis. They all wrote magical interludes that to my mind communicated far more beautifully than any words can muster. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:42 | ||
On the other hand, I am immensely interested in vocals, every aspect of it from tone, technique to phrasing and emoting. But I also don't exactly worship at the altar of say a Gabriel or Jon Anderson. I don't think they are really that awesome as singers. They are alright but need the prop of great music. In short, most of the time, it is the instrumental aspect of prog that is the most alluring. Prog tracks are also often arranged in such a way that the singer only interjects with a couple of lines of narrative or such with 10 of 15 minutes taken up by instrumental sections.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:47 | ||
^ "I am immensely interested in vocals, every aspect of it from tone, technique to phrasing and emoting." I'm with you there. Besides, someone has already mentioned (on this thread, I think) that there are non-Anglophonic prog albums that we enjoy listening to without ever having to understand the language, be it Italian, Kobaïan, etc. That's why I love Francesco Di Giacomo (RIP).
Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 24 2014 at 19:49 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:52 | ||
Kobaian especially. How does one get to enjoy Magma if one is supposed to first learn an imaginary language to appreciate it? Just seems like too much work.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:59 | ||
^ Besides, the language was constructed with words that have syllables that sound to Vander's liking (at least that's how I understood it). Here's a Wiki page that gives a bit more insight on how the language works.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: July 24 2014 at 21:45 | ||
Edited by HackettFan - July 24 2014 at 21:46 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 08:33 | ||
Originally posted by SteveG ^^Time for the guy that belittles prog lyrics to actually defend them for what they once were. At one time prog lyrics were very much a part of the listening experience if even on a near subliminal level. The obvious great lyricist was Roger Waters with his over the top theatrics (it would be nearly impossible to not understand his points) but he truly came into his own on Wish You Were Here. WYWH is an album about absence and even Waters stripped down use of lyrics to add to the feeling of absence and abandonment did little to detract from their meaning contrasted with over long verbiage from albums like The Wall. Alas, Waters is mute. KC's In The Wake Of Poseidon lamented the destruction of the earth from pollution 45 years before global warming become a common phrase in pop culture. And then there's Neil Peart who summary tale of teenage isolation in the song Subdivisions related to more isolated high school kids than any song that I know of and actually turned them on to Rush, more than any other song that I know of. Than we come to "all is bliss' ramblings' of Yes whose dippy verse from Roundabout perfectly fit around Squire's circular and returning bass riff so that even if the meaning of the lyrics were lost on people, they were a memorable fit. And what other song has two ands in both its title and it's lyrics such as Yes' And You And I. Even if the lyrics were not up to snuff they were at least extremely unique and memorable. These are only a few of the types of lyrics that are sorely lacking in modern prog music, I could go but the exercise would be redundant. I doubt that you will find any information in regard to this in PAs thread on songwriting or people would be smart enough to write lyrics like the ones mentioned. (And you can't put common sense down on paper sometimes)[/QUOTE]
Originally posted by rogerthat I love Dark Side of the Moon and love the lyrics of the album, almost every word of it. But there is also no other prog album or rock album for that matter written that directly and plainly. Now add to that complex and epic music, then it gets too much to pay attention to. It is only in a case like Marillion where most of the proceedings happen by way of vocal verse that I listen to the words. I don't really feel the need AT ALL in the case of Yes and only intermittently when it comes to Genesis. They all wrote magical interludes that to my mind communicated far more beautifully than any words can muster Revised response from SteveG: Perhaps, I'm was not making my point clear as it was a short post due to time contraints as I was trying to respond to a members post who thinks he's smart (and claims to be a songwriter to boot) because he read my posts and sees a relationship that I have between singers and songwriters but lacks the intuition, sans written words, to realize my obvious pet peeve regarding this thread. I can't help feeling that the lyrics in older prog music is mostly taken for granted as I can't envision recent threads such as The Lamb Vs. The Trick Of the Tail without the lyrics playing such a significant role in both albums enjoyment. The same goes for the mostly instrumental ELP. Hell, even their early FM staple ws the lyric heavy ironic Lucky Man.Their most popular album was the cheeky lyric heavy Brain Salad Surgery with the manic and enjoyable Karevil 9 being the high light. Furhtermore, Collins re-interpretation of the Carpet Crawlers from Seconds Out and the over the top Suppers Ready from the original album or Seconds Out would lack all gravitas without the stellar lyrics. I can't even imagine a poll pitting Zappa agaist Floyd if the lyrics were not a key component to each artist and what would Thick as a Brick be devoid of Anderson's toungue in cheek Pythonesque lyrics? I feel we take a lot of our classic favorites for granted in regard to quality lyrics but I do tip my hat to Marillion and Hogarth in particular, even if their are starting to get a bit long in the tooth now.
Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 10:41 |
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thwok
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 15 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 09:03 | ||
I guess for me the answer is, it depends! If we're talking about a good lyricist, I think it contributes greatly to a song. I'll cite Donald Fagen as someone who can write. On the other hand, John Anderson's lyrics are usually ridiculous, but Yes was my favorite band for years! I also love My Dying Bride, but most of Aaron Stainthorpe's lyrics are a jumble of violent gothic images with no continuity.
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I am the funkiest man on the planet!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 09:14 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 16:44 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 09:49 | ||
It is possible that prog lyrics are somewhat taken for granted. Wouldn't rule that out and I would say the likely reason for that is again simply the fact that the music is so complex and dense. When there's so much music to take in, lyrics tend to take a backseat. Coming back to DSOTM, that's why Floyd kept the music also relatively simple and accessible. It made it easier for people to identify with their lyrics. Comparatively fewer people identify with the lyrics of Animals because musically and lyrically it's more convoluted (not to say it's bad, I love it).
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 10:01 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 10:12 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5087 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 10:53 | ||
Too much critisizing Prog lyrics around here, hey, at least most Prog bands try to say something, sometimes they nail it and sometimes they may end up dangerously close to plain ridiculous, but at least they try to say something, which is not the case in the vast majority of Rock music. And I find many interesting concepts and ideas in many Prog songs. So some of you think that Dylan, Cohen et al were better lyricists alright, but we can not complain about lyrics in Prog in general, even if from time to time we have to get a ladder for some singer .
When nearly 40 years later we are still discussing about the meaning of The Lamb, c'mon, which other genre has that!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 11:22 | ||
I don't really go along with that. There are quite a few prominent prog rock bands whose lyrics either don't convey something particularly interesting to me (Yes) or can often be banal (Rush, Dream Theater). Prog lyrics tend to be more wordy and intelligent-sounding rather than downright cheesy and dumb, that's perhaps the saving grace. Just as not every rock songwriter can come up with lyrics to match Dylan, not every prog album is Lamb Lies Down on Broadway either.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 13:38 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 14:06 |
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 13:48 | ||
^It would be impossible to discuss an album that isn't 40 years old 40 years later.
I hate to use this word, but I think Dylan's lyrics are being overrated here. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of Dylan's songs and lyrics, but I wouldn't stack him up against the likes of Peart or Hammill. And I have heard discussions on the lyrical content of The Incident by PT, as well as Doomsday Afternoon by Phideaux and I'm sure there are other examples of modern prog lyrics being discussed but obviously not 40 years later because of the issue of linear time and the way that works. |
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 14:00 | ||
Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 14:11 |
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 26 2014 Location: Milky Way Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:09 | ||
Jon Anderson’s lyrics seem ridiculous in similar fashion as writings in esoteric literature such as the Bible seem ridiculous. It only appears ludicrous because it’s misconstrued. |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20245 |
Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:12 | ||
^I've never read about a Siberian Khatru in the bible. Perhaps I missed that chapter.
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