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dr wu23 
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 Posted: July 26 2014 at 16:55 |
 SteveG wrote:
Crimson_King wrote:
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
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That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking, profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
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And I'm sure Mr Peart also thinks his lyrics are just 'puke' when you get down to it.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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jrubenstein
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 18:18 |
Xonty wrote:
On the whole, lyrics are more difficult than music. There's only 12 notes but over a million words, and finding the right combination and something that's very emotional or intriguing is much harder IMO. Therefore, I can appreciate them more (being a wannabe progressive songwriter myself) which means I like them just as much, if not more than the music in some cases. I never really understood Marillion on the first few listens, and found them dull because the lyrics are very intricate on something like "Script For A Jester's Tear", and much less accessible than other acts. Over time though, I got more into it as I interpreted the lyrics and got to know them. Steven Wilson has some pretty great lyrical moments, but not a fan on the whole. Tool, Opeth, and other heavier bands don't really do much for me either, but Dream Theater's "Scenes From A Memory" is brilliantly narrated. Obviously those lyrics are essential to telling the concept and are just as important as the music 
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If the lyrics are great, or if they fit the song and are in integral part of the piece, then they're very important. I think of The Yes Album, where the lyrics are just so far out there but fit the music perfectly -- the record wouldn't be the same, or as good, without them.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 21:56 |
HackettFan wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
^That's a good point about simplicity. Even if simple lyrics are more poignant in certain cases, Prog listeners don't want simple by and large. |
Maybe some of them don't. I for one don't favor the use of encrypting literary devices that obfuscate the meaning of the words.
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I was actually thinking of simplicity in terms of economy when I wrote the post, the number of syllables and how they fit in to the intracacy of the music. The less is more kind of thing.
I do like some obscurity in lyrics. I don't think it's too much to say to listeners that, if they don't know what a stickleback is, they ought to go find out. Of course Gabriel brought up the encoding issue in I Don't Remember, nevertheless, I wonder how many casual listeners knew what that song was about. I can say I didn't at first. |
Ditto. I would not object to using unusual words from time to time (as long as it doesn't become a fetish, an obsession for the songwriter). I am more interested in the length of the lines, the verses and the no. of stanzas taken up to express the idea. The lyricist should try to express it in the shortest possible way. The more elaborate detail it gets into, the more fatiguing it gets. A great lyricist also comes up with great metaphors and association to express the emotion he/she has in mind without having to explain it in great detail. Kate Bush uses the metaphor of an unborn child dying in the womb to express her fears over nuclear holocaust in Breathing. That makes it a lot more memorable than say describing prosaically the dangers of nuclear weapons with unwieldy words (a lot of metal bands often take this approach and it never works for me). Pink Floyd have already been discussed and they were particularly good at applying Occam's Razor in a manner of speaking to their lyrics rather than trying to show off vocabulary.
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Luna
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Posted: July 26 2014 at 22:30 |
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Most of the time, I wish prog was all instrumental.
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:15 |
Luna wrote:
Most of the time, I wish prog was all instrumental. |
Sadly, this means that the voice is not an instrument!
It's just some over hyped arsenic hole that has the ego that wants to sing! And everything he poops is important. Thank you Jean Genet for giving us our wonderful lady of flowers for the delectation of the progressive PA board!
NP: Memo from Turner!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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CosmicVibration
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:27 |
I prefer human voices mixed in as part of the musical experience. Listening to music from countries in which I do
not understand the language, the voices usually add beautifully to the musical compositions.
Especially when it comes to Magma.  Bands like Yes with lyrics that may be incomprehensible
one can listen to the vocal chords vibrating simply as another instrument.
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CosmicVibration
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:32 |
SteveG wrote:
Crimson_King wrote:
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
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That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking, profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
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Bruford is an extraordinary musician and he was always
reinventing himself. After reaching what
he thought was a peak in a particular style of playing and also on a musical
composition which was Close to the Edge he wanted to take a “musical cold shower.” Yes was mostly a sunny major key playing band
while King Crimson was predominantly a dark minor key playing band.
After King Crimson he did many projects, kept it fresh and reinvented
himself many times.
Both his electronic and acoustic Earthwork incarnations
illustrate his musical brilliance in the jazz arena. Even if one is not into jazz I would still
highly recommend the first Earthworks incarnation where Bruford plays an
electronic kit. It’s on the outskirts of
jazz and it’s incredible.
I remember seeing Billy Bru up close in a small venue in NYC
playing a piece of the first Earthworks CD which had an intricate drum beat
with what I thought were some keyboard melodies mixed in. Or at least that’s what I thought when
listening to the cd. He was playing both on his kit, the drum rhythm and
keyboard melodies. It was astonishing…
Not sure if Bruford originated playing 2 different time
signatures at the same time but he was definitely the master of it. Past tense because he retired almost 2 years
ago.
If Bruford knew all the money he lost by not staying in Yes
would he of made a different decision?
Or would he still of chose his ever changing style and musical career?
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:36 |
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I think lyrics are indeed important in song composition; to say otherwise lacks perspective. How often do we write off pop pablum and deride banal lyrics?
Certainly, there are any number of Led Zeppelin songs that get by with testosterone-driven grunts and wails, but, for the life of me, I can't recall a song with profound lyrics that deserves censure.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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refugee
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:44 |
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[/QUOTE] I was actually thinking of simplicity in terms of economy when I wrote the post, the number of syllables and how they fit in to the intracacy of the music. The less is more kind of thing.
I do like some obscurity in lyrics. I don't think it's too much to say to listeners that, if they don't know what a stickleback is, they ought to go find out. Of course Gabriel brought up the encoding issue in I Don't Remember, nevertheless, I wonder how many casual listeners knew what that song was about. I can say I didn't at first.[/QUOTE]
While I do agree on most of what you say (redundance is not what I’m looking for in lyrics), I’m at a loss when it comes to I Don’t Remember. So what’s the song about? You could interpret it in many ways, and I don’t think there’s only one interpretation that’s correct.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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Crimson_King
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Joined: July 25 2014
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 11:40 |
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quote: That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking,
profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out
of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
Edited by SteveG - Yesterday at 13:45
yeah, you're correct when you use the word "creative powers", since they kinda sorta went downhill after CTTE........(exception: Relayer) ha!
Edited by Crimson_King - July 27 2014 at 11:42
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"Naked we come, bruised we go...Nude pastry for the slow soft worms below" ---James D. Morrison; "Throw out yer gold teeth & see how they roll...the answer they reveal: Life is Unreal" ---Steely Dan
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HackettFan
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Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Posted: July 27 2014 at 17:41 |
refugee wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
I was actually thinking of simplicity in terms of economy when I wrote the post, the number of syllables and how they fit in to the intracacy of the music. The less is more kind of thing.
I do like some obscurity in lyrics. I don't think it's too much to say to listeners that, if they don't know what a stickleback is, they ought to go find out. Of course Gabriel brought up the encoding issue in I Don't Remember, nevertheless, I wonder how many casual listeners knew what that song was about. I can say I didn't at first. |
While I do agree on most of what you say (redundance is not what I’m looking for in lyrics), I’m at a loss when it comes to I Don’t Remember. So what’s the song about? You could interpret it in many ways, and I don’t think there’s only one interpretation that’s correct. |
It's supposed to be about his time in Genesis that he doesn't remember/recall. The idea being that he was happy with his solo direction at the time. In speaking of the old lyrics, the song speaks about not having a decoder. Just as you say that the meaning is not all so obvious (and was not obvious to me at first either) is ironic, because it means that once again even in his solo work we still need a "decoder".
Edited by HackettFan - July 27 2014 at 17:46
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refugee
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 04:14 |
HackettFan wrote:
refugee wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
I was actually thinking of simplicity in terms of economy when I wrote the post, the number of syllables and how they fit in to the intracacy of the music. The less is more kind of thing.
I do like some obscurity in lyrics. I don't think it's too much to say to listeners that, if they don't know what a stickleback is, they ought to go find out. Of course Gabriel brought up the encoding issue in I Don't Remember, nevertheless, I wonder how many casual listeners knew what that song was about. I can say I didn't at first. |
While I do agree on most of what you say (redundance is not what I’m looking for in lyrics), I’m at a loss when it comes to I Don’t Remember. So what’s the song about? You could interpret it in many ways, and I don’t think there’s only one interpretation that’s correct. |
It's supposed to be about his time in Genesis that he doesn't remember/recall. The idea being that he was happy with his solo direction at the time. In speaking of the old lyrics, the song speaks about not having a decoder. Just as you say that the meaning is not all so obvious (and was not obvious to me at first either) is ironic, because it means that once again even in his solo work we still need a "decoder". |
Has PG said so himself? If so, I could do without his "decoder". When you read the lyrics without having PG’s past in mind, the obvious interpretation is that it’s a song about amnesia. Or (more interesting) about a refugee being interrogated in a foreign country. On the other hand, maybe that’s how PG felt whenever he was asked about his time in Genesis.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 08:36 |
Crimson_King wrote:
quote: That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking,
profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out
of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
yeah, you're correct when you use the word "creative powers", since they kinda sorta went downhill after CTTE........(exception: Relayer) ha!
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Correct in as much as CTTE album is considered by many to be their creative peak but Relayer, TFTO and GFTO were well received, highly creative and sold well, So it's the commercial part of their powers that endured for many years that he missed out on, but the positive outcome for me is that Roy Harper hired him to play on his 1975 album HQ and, along with guitarist Chris Spedding and bassist Dave Cochran, helped to create Harper's most beautiful song ever titled Hallucinating Light.
Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 10:53
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SteveG
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 08:59 |
dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Crimson_King wrote:
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
|
That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking, profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
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And I'm sure Mr Peart also thinks his lyrics are just 'puke' when you get down to it.
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Anything's possible Doc, but who would have nerve to ask him. Not me for one! 
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20472
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:30 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Crimson_King wrote:
I'll just defer to an obscure (maybe obscure?) quote from the great William Bruford, commended at one time for "admirable restraint"..........his opinion mirrors mine, here it is:
"For all I cared, Jon Anderson or John Wetton could have sung the entire Manhattan Telephone Directory......I was entirely concerned with the 'rhythmic machinery' of the track, down in the boiler room....."
oh, I just remembered another one from Bruford.
When he was looking over the lyric sheet for Part 2 of "Close to the Edge", he looked at Jon Anderson and said,
"What is all this Total Mass Retain?........why don't we just call it 'puke'??......"
Now THAT's Beautiful, dontcha know.
|
That's why Bill Bruford will always be remembered for his deep thinking, profound statements and great judgement, like on the day he stepped out of Yes when they were at the height of their creative and commercial powers. Pure intellect. C_K, pure intellect. And a great example to follow.
|
Bruford is an extraordinary musician and he was always
reinventing himself. After reaching what
he thought was a peak in a particular style of playing and also on a musical
composition which was Close to the Edge he wanted to take a “musical cold shower.” Yes was mostly a sunny major key playing band
while King Crimson was predominantly a dark minor key playing band.
After King Crimson he did many projects, kept it fresh and reinvented
himself many times.
Both his electronic and acoustic Earthwork incarnations
illustrate his musical brilliance in the jazz arena. Even if one is not into jazz I would still
highly recommend the first Earthworks incarnation where Bruford plays an
electronic kit. It’s on the outskirts of
jazz and it’s incredible.
I remember seeing Billy Bru up close in a small venue in NYC
playing a piece of the first Earthworks CD which had an intricate drum beat
with what I thought were some keyboard melodies mixed in. Or at least that’s what I thought when
listening to the cd. He was playing both on his kit, the drum rhythm and
keyboard melodies. It was astonishing…
Not sure if Bruford originated playing 2 different time
signatures at the same time but he was definitely the master of it. Past tense because he retired almost 2 years
ago.
If Bruford knew all the money he lost by not staying in Yes
would he of made a different decision?
Or would he still of chose his ever changing style and musical career?
|
I'm someone who lost the abilty to be star struck about 3 and a half decades ago so my post was only to demomstrate that the people we admire and quote are sometimes not worth quoting. There's always more sides to the people we hear on recordings or see live on stage and fans seem to forget that fact or blind themselves to it. Would Bruford have been able to musically progress in Yes? I don't see why not but we will never know as he didn't hang around long enough to provide an answer.
Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 09:37
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CosmicVibration
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:39 |
Bruford may be an extraordinary percussionist but this doesn't mean he's a poet or is skilled in creative writing.
Edited by CosmicVibration - July 28 2014 at 09:40
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SteveG
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 09:43 |
^I agree that he is one of progs greatest drummers and with that I think we should return to the topic.
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dr wu23
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:25 |
SteveG wrote:
^I agree that he is one of progs greatest drummers and with that I think we should return to the topic. |
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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SteveG
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Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:34 |
dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^I agree that he is one of progs greatest drummers and with that I think we should return to the topic. |
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Tricky question Doc as I listen to Yes in a sort of 'turned off to lyrics' mode on albums like Fragile or CTTE with Anderson's vocal as another instrument. Sort of like listening to world music with lyrics that I don't understand. (Nusrut Ali Khan anyone? The dude was awesome.)
Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 14:36
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rogerthat
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Location: .
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 03:29 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song.
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