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moshkito 
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 Posted: July 29 2014 at 09:51 |
 rogerthat wrote:
...
Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
Agreed.
However, when you hear Turandot in the days of Tebaldi and Nilsson, you know that was a massively huge orchestra and they were over it. One could say that there are way too many lyrics there, but they "further" the story.
I'm not sure that TLLDOB with all its different pieces and parts, really makes for a well written "story" for us to listen to, whereas it is much easier to get into Jon Anderson's mystical lyrics in TFTO, when we do not know that they mean and stand for.
This is the part that is difficult about discussing lyrics. Or even listening to Chappo (Roger Chapman) doing his 13 minute version of Chili Con Carne. It's progressive in his emotion but it would feel like just rock music, and the same for Ball and Chain with Janis Joplin.
But it worries me, that when things like that can happen, with or without lyrics, that we might be lessening the experience, and I (for one) would NEVER want to see that. I have no issues with PH screaming in Bernina or in a louse or a home!
Edited by moshkito - July 29 2014 at 10:01
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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SteveG
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 11:03 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
I still feel that this still comes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 11:05
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refugee
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:40 |
SteveG wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
I still feel that this still comes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
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Hmm … getting complicated. In epics like A Plague … or Supper’s Ready clearly the lyrics are very important. But what about Echoes? The words aren’t bad, but still they don’t seem very important to me – the music is what grabs me and appeals to me, the lyrics are more like sounds. But when it comes to Shine on … I feel that the lyrics are extremely important, like they’re the starting point of the song. I mean, if I heard a PF tribute band playing Echoes and they had changed the lyrics, I would probably think "where’s the albatross?" and "what happened to the bright ambassadors of morning?" but if they f*cked up Shine on … I would be upset! 
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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SteveG
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 15:53 |
refugee wrote:
SteveG wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
I still feel that this still comes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
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Hmm … getting complicated. In epics like A Plague … or Supper’s Ready clearly the lyrics are very important. But what about Echoes? The words aren’t bad, but still they don’t seem very important to me – the music is what grabs me and appeals to me, the lyrics are more like sounds. But when it comes to Shine on … I feel that the lyrics are extremely important, like they’re the starting point of the song. I mean, if I heard a PF tribute band playing Echoes and they had changed the lyrics, I would probably think "where’s the albatross?" and "what happened to the bright ambassadors of morning?" but if they f*cked up Shine on … I would be upset! |
Good point. I think the difference is obviously in the advancement of Water's lyrical ability from his baby steps with Echoes to his full blown stride by the time Wish you Were Here was made so that's the main difference between the two songs as far as the lyrics are concerned, but would you feel annoyed if the Floyd tribrute band screwed up the lyrics to a song like Fat Old Sun?
Edited by SteveG - July 29 2014 at 15:56
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refugee
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 16:42 |
SteveG wrote:
refugee wrote:
SteveG wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
I still feel that this still cAomes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
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Hmm … getting complicated. In epics like A Plague … or Supper’s Ready clearly the lyrics are very important. But what about Echoes? The words aren’t bad, but still they don’t seem very important to me – the music is what grabs me and appeals to me, the lyrics are more like sounds. But when it comes to Shine on … I feel that the lyrics are extremely important, like they’re the starting point of the song. I mean, if I heard a PF tribute band playing Echoes and they had changed the lyrics, I would probably think "where’s the albatross?" and "what happened to the bright ambassadors of morning?" but if they f*cked up Shine on … I would be upset! |
Good point. I think the difference is obviously in the advancement of Water's lyrical ability from his baby steps with Echoes to his full blown stride by the time Wish you Were Here was made so that's the main difference between the two songs as far as the lyrics are concerned, but would you feel annoyed if the Floyd tribrute band screwed up the lyrics to a song like Fat Old Sun? |
Fat Old Sun? I wouldn’t even notice it! But when I heard Think Floyd, I was very happy to notice that they got the lyrics to Arnold Layne and See Emily Play right. I’m not so sure about the words to their opening act, Atom Heart Mother. Another PF epic where the words are less important. Or wait a moment … are there any words? There’s a choir and … a motorbike. The bike is probably more important than the words.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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SteveG
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 16:52 |
^How about the lyrics to One Of these Days. I'd flip if they screwed up that one line in the song. Whatever it is.
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The Doctor
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 16:58 |
a. "One of these days, I'm going to cut you up some little cheeses." b. "One of these days, I'm going to eat me some Reese's Pieces" c. "One of these days, I'm going to spank your little nieces"  d. "One of these days, I'm going to get you to wash the dishes" e. "One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces" And the answer is _____?
Edited by The Doctor - July 29 2014 at 17:00
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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SteveG
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:16 |
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Horizons
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 19:52 |
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E....nough of this.
Edited by Horizons - July 29 2014 at 19:53
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 20:13 |
SteveG wrote:
I still feel that this still comes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
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It's not quite so simple because, for instance, the length of a typical hard rock/heavy metal live concert is no shorter than a prog concert and those singers hammer their voices a lot more, in more vocal based music. It could have to do with whether the singer writes the lyrics and how much he has to say. Say in some bands like Marillion (Fish era) there's a lot more vocals and lyrics going on because Fish had a lot to say. Could also be down to equations between members. A good singer tends to attract disproportionate attention from the audience. When I saw Iron Maiden, Bruce got the biggest cheers, even more so than Harris. I think in prog there's some amount of vanity that the musicians are making music that's more technical and advanced than typical rock. If that's the case, they may resent a situation where the singer gets the limelight (e.g Genesis after Lamb was released). They can either get another singer or just cut down the volume of lyrics.
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ebil0505
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 22:24 |
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To be honest the lyrics do not matter much to me at all, though when I hear good ones I enjoy the song all the more.
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"I like to think oysters transcend national barriers." - Roger Waters
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dr wu23
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Posted: July 29 2014 at 23:27 |
rogerthat wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Uh......what was the topic again...?
Now I recall, lyrics in prog music.
Well since 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere on the albums I'd say they are pretty important or all these prog rock musicians would be just doing instrumental music.....or am I missing something ...?
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Perhaps the point that 90% of track length in plenty of prog rock compositions, especially epics or mini-epics, is taken up by instrumental sections? You could argue that I am generalising but by the same token, you are generalising too in saying 90% of prog rock has lyrics somewhere (that is not necessarily the case at all if you consider, for instance, jazz rock and even some of the avant stuff). So keeping that part of the argument aside, it is pretty easy to see why listeners would be happy to not pay too much attention to lyrics in prog when, in terms of running length, they are drowned out by the instrumental sections vis-a-vis the ratio in a typical rock or pop song. |
And there are many classic prog rock albums that do have a fair share of lyrics on them so one could go back and forth on that discussion but....why do the musicians have them at all if they aren't important and no one cares enough to listen to them..?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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silverpot
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 07:42 |
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SteveG
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:41 |
rogerthat wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I still feel that this still comes down to a question of balance in vocal prog songs as the singer has to do something more on the live stage then just shake a tambourine all night. So, a 60/40 split? No as it depends on how much the vocalist has put out during his performance. He can't go balls to the wall on every song and blow out his voice, on the same token, he can sing more in a ballad with less high energy vocals so there's usually more lyrics in ballads. Again, it's a question of balance based on what the vocalist can recreate live from a recording that I believe sets the ratios between lyrics and music in prog.
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It's not quite so simple because, for instance, the length of a typical hard rock/heavy metal live concert is no shorter than a prog concert and those singers hammer their voices a lot more, in more vocal based music. It could have to do with whether the singer writes the lyrics and how much he has to say. Say in some bands like Marillion (Fish era) there's a lot more vocals and lyrics going on because Fish had a lot to say. Could also be down to equations between members. A good singer tends to attract disproportionate attention from the audience. When I saw Iron Maiden, Bruce got the biggest cheers, even more so than Harris. I think in prog there's some amount of vanity that the musicians are making music that's more technical and advanced than typical rock. If that's the case, they may resent a situation where the singer gets the limelight (e.g Genesis after Lamb was released). They can either get another singer or just cut down the volume of lyrics. |
I still feel that a lot has to do with how well singers can wail before they get fatigued. How you ever seen a singer in concert blow out his voice? I have and it's a big problem, that's why Hogarth from Marillion rarely does Cover My Eyes in concerts. He knows that he's out of his safety zone and some singers like Dickenson have a higher threshold and wail more but even he has to have some limits. It's still a human voice after all, not a machine.
Edited by SteveG - July 30 2014 at 11:51
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LSDisease
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 09:20 |
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There's not enough violence and aggression in prog lyrics.
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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SteveG
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 09:24 |
LSDisease wrote:
There's not enough violence and aggression in prog lyrics.
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Thats why God created metal.
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LSDisease
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 09:26 |
SteveG wrote:
LSDisease wrote:
There's not enough violence and aggression in prog lyrics.
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Thats why God created metal.
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metal is cool, I'd like to hear some gore prog though
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"Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
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SteveG
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 09:29 |
^I'll second that.  But doesn't Steven Wilson sing about serial killers and such?
Edited by SteveG - July 30 2014 at 09:30
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 10:09 |
dr wu23 wrote:
And there are many classic prog rock albums that do have a fair share of lyrics on them so one could go back and forth on that discussion but....why do the musicians have them at all if they aren't important and no one cares enough to listen to them..?
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But I thought the topic was about how important the lyrics are to the listener in his personal appreciation. And I am only hypothesizing on what may be the reasons why a lot of people have responded to this thread to say it would not be important to them. It is not necessary that everything that the musicians consider important would be important to the listener. Rick Marotta, the drummer on Peg, claimed to have done some specific things which were never captured in the recording he finally heard. So there's no contradiction there. If I began to talk about dynamics and expression of a singer, a lot of people might feel they don't find it that important but I do. And in the same way, if somebody does or doesn't find the lyrics important is entirely up to them, there are no oughts or ought nots there.
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rogerthat
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Posted: July 30 2014 at 10:14 |
SteveG wrote:
I still feel that a lot has to do with how well singers can wail before they get fatigued. How you ever seen a singer in concert blow out his voice? I have and it's a big problem, that's why Hogarth from Marillion rarely does Cover My Eye in concerts. He knows that he's out of his safety zone and some singers like Dickenson have a higher threshold and wail more but even he has to have some limits. It's still a human voice after all, not a machine.
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I haven't seen singers blow out their voice right in the middle of a concert but did see two (messrs Meine and Dickinson, no less) sing well within themselves and let the enthusiastic crowd take care of the rest. I do agree that the voice is not a machine and there are limits to how much it can be pushed. I am just saying I don't see a correlation between the amount of lyrics and the abilities of the singer. Compare Genesis and Symphony X - the former is a lot more lyrics-oriented. And yet, as between Gabriel and Russell Allen, it's the latter who has the more robust technique. For a non prog example, consider that Fiona Apple often gives a rather ragged delivery in concerts but her material is nevertheless very much focused on her vocals. So a lot depends on whether the singer himself/herself writes the lyrics and, further, feels like he/she has a lot to say.
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