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Topic Closedthe 70s prog scene's attitude to early metal

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KingCrInuYasha View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 11:40
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.

Actually, you could also say that American punk started in 1968 - '69 with The MC5 and The Stooges.
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2014 at 17:49
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.

Stateside, I think many of us believe that one of the very first bands to kick off "punk" was the band "MC5."  


This largely tracks what I remember at that time.  

There were a lot of crossover influences between prog, punk and glam as I recall.  Eno's solo work certainly tapped into the energy of punk.  

The Sex Pistols really seemed to kick it into overdrive over here.  I played in a few punk bands, and we were actually influenced by bands like King Crimson.....one extended jam I would use to warm up the band was "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II."  

The Brits always seem to come to the game ready to win!  Punk, prog, whatever.  Love you guys! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 00:27
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:









^You are still missing the point so I'll say it again. The term 'metal' was used more in American pop culture in the early to mid seventies than it ever was in the UK for the reasons I listed numerous times. It was not until after punk rock exploded in the UK that the 'metal" tag started to be used with some regularity, and even then it was used with confusion. That's why I sugested to the member from Sweden that may have been the reason why he did not recall the term 'metal' being used in the seventies but only 'hard rock'. I worked in the UK at various times in the seventies and that's how I recall it. Because a different term for a genre of music was available on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean or stated in a book does not mean that it was commonly used. Hopefully you understood my point. now  Back to topic






You're still missing my point actually. In my response to a member from Sweden, my point was that the heavy metal as the term existed in the 70s and that there is written evidence about that matter in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock (1977), written by well knowing and respected British rock journalists Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden.

Now Back to topic


Edited by Svetonio - July 28 2014 at 19:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 08:50
^Good Grief Charlie Brown! now  Back to topic

Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 08:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Good Grief Charlie Brown! now  Back to topic


LOL I'm sorry for starting this discussion, please forgive me.

And you're absolutely right of course.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:54
Was it the NME or Sounds or some other UK music magazine that first identified the "New Wave of British Heavy Metal" that took off in the late 1970s? In Denmark/Sweden that kind of music was called "betonrock", which means "concrete rock" in Danish, until around that time of the NWoBHM and it has kind of stuck as a slang term for 1970s psychedelic hard rock. Again, going off that book I mentioned in the OP.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:00
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Was it the NME or Sounds or some other UK music magazine that first identified the "New Wave of British Heavy Metal" that took off in the late 1970s? In Denmark/Sweden that kind of music was called "betonrock", which means "concrete rock" in Danish, until around that time of the NWoBHM and it has kind of stuck as a slang term for 1970s psychedelic hard rock. Again, going off that book I mentioned in the OP.
I believe so in an effort to play catch up after avoiding trying to pin the tag on many early hard rock bands like Deep Purple who hated the term but by that time, as I said, punk rock exploded so it seemed to me like an afterthought as the UK went gaga for punk or at least the Sex Pistols at first.

Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 14:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:13
Well, punk seems to often have been a "cultural movement" first and a genre of music second so I guess it's easier to analyze sociologically. The NWoBHM did have some of that kind of mentality but to nowhere the same extent. The only time any metal scene in the First World's approximated that was the early-1990s black metal "inner circles", except in a more cultish manner. (it's probably a different situation in places like Eastern Europe and Latin America where both are still considered genuinely subversive and dangerous by the populace at large)

I think it's pretty clear that heavy metal didn't crystallize as a well-codified genre artists deliberately set out to play until the mid-1970s, and didn't really pick up an associated subculture until the NWoBHM either. Conversely, that was by the same time that progressive rock's golden age was generally agreed to for the most part have ended or started declining. What I refer to is how big an ideological rift between most of the "proto-metal" groups on one hand, and the less heavy but more technically accomplished prog-rock groups on the other, there was prior to that.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:18
^I keep forgetting to note, as I think everyone worked with hard rock/ metal bands like I did , that Judas Priest took off in Europe big time in 1979 as an answer for people that were not into punk with the rest of the metal brigade like Iron Maiden, et al, following close behind. (The so called New Wave of Heavy Metal.)

Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 14:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:37
I'm curious how popular JP were before Killing Machine came out, that album seems to have been their big break and also where they jettisoned both the progressive touches their music had before that as well as the more introverted lyrics. Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:46
^I know they picked up steam with Killing Machine as I was in the UK in 78 when it came out but I'm not sure about before. I recall someone referring to them as being a bit on the fey side with Halford trying to imitate high range singers like Coverdale but that's just heresay as I never saw them myself before the 80s.

Edited by SteveG - July 28 2014 at 14:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 01:42
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'm curious how popular JP were before Killing Machine came out, that album seems to have been their big break and also where they jettisoned both the progressive touches their music had before that as well as the more introverted lyrics. Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
Stained Class the album (1978) actually reveals their 'new-heavy-metal' direction; this album sounds slightly like a prog metal - the genre that will be labeled a decade after Stained Class were released. My fav album by JP.



Before Stained Class, they have got some "hits" as Rocka RollaCheaterThe Ripper and epic Victim of Changes. Personally, I knew for the band since 1975 when as a little kid I bought Rocka Rolla the album because of that great cover design by John Pache ( I loved to buy the LPs by these -  to me previously unknow - U.S. and U.K. bands just on the album covers basis - it was so exciting back then). However, Judas Priest definitely become really great heavy-metal stars in 1980 as a part of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal scene & with British Steel the album. i.e. when they were changed thier heavy music's direction for third time - they left above mentioned proggy elements and then that was pure NWOBHM sound.




Edited by Svetonio - July 29 2014 at 21:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 09:59










Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
I was able to speak with a friend that spent some time up close with Blackmore and Glover in their Rainbow days and he had some interresting perspectives worth sharing regarding the prog and metal connection.  As  capricious as Blackmore is (he's playing lute and hurdy gurdy in his new band Blackmore's Night), my friend felt that Blackmore considered himself a contemporary of 70's guitar icons like Clapton, Beck and Page and would probably have rejected the prog label applied to DP as well as the metal tag. The other divide that my friend brought up aside from different fan bases was the lyrical content of hard rock vs. prog in the seventies. Smoke On The Water vs. And You and I. One genre was singing about sex, drugs and rock and roll while the other is singing about who knows what? Enlightenment? Something that the hard rock genre was said to loath, so  some other dividing  points were brought up that seem to make sense in keeping the two genres apart.










Edited by SteveG - July 30 2014 at 15:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:17
To put my five-penneth in - I think that the term Metal - (as far as I can remember - was possibly very late seventies, mind you I only started liking Sabbath, Purple, Motorhead , Saxon, Iron Maiden - late seventies so maybe it was in more common parlance mid seventies - I was just not aware of it....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:23
^A penny for your thoughts, as we say in the States. Or a half penny as they used to say in Canada. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2014 at 21:12
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:








Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
I was able to speak with a friend that spent some time up close with Blackmore and Glover in their Rainbow days and he had some interresting perspectives worth sharing regarding the prog and metal connection.  As  caprious as Blackmore is (he's playing lute and hurdy gurdy in his new band Blackmore's Night), my friend felt that Blackmore considered himself a contemporary of 70's guitar icons like Clapton, Beck and Page and would probably have rejected the prog label applied to DP as well as the metal tag. The other divide that my friend brought up aside from different fan bases was the lyrical content of hard rock vs. prog in the seventies. Smoke On The Water vs. And You and I. One genre was singing about sex, drugs and rock and roll while the other is singing about who knows what? Enlightenment? Something that the hard rock genre was said to loath, so  some other dividing  points were brought up that seem to make sense in keeping the two genres apart.







On the booklet notes from some Deep Purple albums I just got last year, they referred to themselves as prog. I think they included Led Zeppelin there, too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:25
^Sounds like rewritten history or the opinion of the writer of the liner notes, but if the quote was from one of the band members At the time the album was released ( I presume it's a seventies album), it would have some credability.

Edited by SteveG - July 30 2014 at 11:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:43
^ Definitely. I suspect that back before "In Rock" Deep Purple probably did consider themselves to be a part of The British Progressive Underground scene but no one was actually called "Prog" at that stage.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2014 at 15:16
I think that some of Purple is proto.progressive.metal especially tracks like "Burn" and Child in time....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2014 at 16:13
...except those were recorded after Prog had been established. Their proto Prog stuff would necessarily have to come from their first three albums, like Anthem or April.

Edited by Dean - July 30 2014 at 16:13
What?
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