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Topic ClosedIs Japan any more prog-related than say The Cure?

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BarryGlibb View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Japan any more prog-related than say The Cure?
    Posted: August 04 2014 at 05:38
Just wondering how Japan have been designated prog-related on the PA site and The Cure, Simple Minds and Big Country and a number of similar bands have not. Can't see how their music is anything more prog-related than those mentioned above.

Is it only because David Sylvian later collaborated with Fripp? Discuss.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:17
Japan is not prog-related at all, it's a 100% English New Wave, but that Japan's music was / is miles above more interesting New Wave for the proggers' ears than the others you mentioned above (imo).

Edited by Svetonio - August 04 2014 at 06:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:22
Well I suppose its cos David played with Fripp and Barbieri with Porcupine Tree. 



and much of their output could be described as prog.  Certainly not pop.  But I never know what Prog is anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:31
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:


Well I suppose its cos David played with Fripp and Barbieri with Porcupine Tree. 
(...)
and much of their output could be described as prog.  Certainly not pop.  But I never know what Prog is anyway.



Sylvian solo output is prog-related but Japan is not imo.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:34
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:


Well I suppose its cos David played with Fripp and Barbieri with Porcupine Tree. 
(...)
and much of their output could be described as prog.  Certainly not pop.  But I never know what Prog is anyway.



Sylvian solo output is prog-related but Japan is not imo.


I meant post- Japan output in various forms. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 06:45






Edited by akamaisondufromage - August 04 2014 at 06:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 07:32
David Sylvian (solo) has been deemed a Crossover Prog artist on this site, and Japan provided the necessary seeds for this subsequent path - thus, Japan is related to prog.  Not prog itself, but prog-related.

The Cure have no such connections, thus they are not deemed prog-related.


Edited by HolyMoly - August 04 2014 at 07:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 08:36
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:


David Sylvian (solo) has been deemed a Crossover Prog artist on this site, (...)

I swear that I didn't know that Mr Sylvian is already in PA' Crossover prog section!
That's great actually.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 08:55
Porl Thompson played with Page and Plant Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 09:12
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Japan is not prog-related at all, it's a 100% English New Wave, but that Japan's music was / is miles above more interesting New Wave for the proggers' ears than the others you mentioned above (imo).
Have you listened to Tin Drum? Japan are not "100% English new wave".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 09:20
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Japan is not prog-related at all, it's a 100% English New Wave, but that Japan's music was / is miles above more interesting New Wave for the proggers' ears than the others you mentioned above (imo).


Have you listened to Tin Drum? Japan are not "100% English new wave".
I put *imo* stamp in my post, did you not see?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 12:43
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Japan is not prog-related at all, it's a 100% English New Wave, but that Japan's music was / is miles above more interesting New Wave for the proggers' ears than the others you mentioned above (imo).


Have you listened to Tin Drum? Japan are not "100% English new wave".
I put *imo* stamp in my post, did you not see?

Of course, but that appears to relate to the text after the comma, rather than the statement I commented on.

If anything Japan initially belonged to the Duran Duran "New Romantic" school (The song Quiet Life is reminiscent of that style).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 13:24
The Church are also included here as a Crossover Artist. I don't mind Kilby and his cohorts but never did strike me as anything to do with Prog. Japan at least were amazing, with subtle Prog-isms.
Big Country are miles away from The Cure. The Cure do have excellent tunes, but man that Robert Smith has a voice that sh*ts me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 22:38
Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:

Just wondering how Japan have been designated prog-related on the PA site and The Cure, Simple Minds and Big Country and a number of similar bands have not. Can't see how their music is anything more prog-related than those mentioned above.

Is it only because David Sylvian later collaborated with Fripp? Discuss.
I tend to agree with you in that they are no  'proggier' than any of the early Cure and Simple Minds who both had some very interesting songs on their early albums. But then this whole thing is very subjective when it comes to saying who should be on PA and who shouldn't. It's not open to a vote so those making the call are  using their own personal ideas and guidelines  about what is prog related and what isn't. No doubt with different collaborators or a larger pool of votes the bands would change somewhat.
For instance Zeppelin and Blue Oyster Cult , 2 bands I like,  are listed as prog related but other than a few longer songs here and there I personally  don't see the prog related aspect . Again it's very subjective.

Edited by dr wu23 - August 04 2014 at 22:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2014 at 06:41
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by BarryGlibb BarryGlibb wrote:

Just wondering how Japan have been designated prog-related on the PA site and The Cure, Simple Minds and Big Country and a number of similar bands have not. Can't see how their music is anything more prog-related than those mentioned above.

Is it only because David Sylvian later collaborated with Fripp? Discuss.
I tend to agree with you in that they are no  'proggier' than any of the early Cure and Simple Minds who both had some very interesting songs on their early albums. But then this whole thing is very subjective when it comes to saying who should be on PA and who shouldn't. It's not open to a vote so those making the call are  using their own personal ideas and guidelines  about what is prog related and what isn't. No doubt with different collaborators or a larger pool of votes the bands would change somewhat.
For instance Zeppelin and Blue Oyster Cult , 2 bands I like,  are listed as prog related but other than a few longer songs here and there I personally  don't see the prog related aspect . Again it's very subjective.


One aspect of progressing rock is eschewing the blues. BOC were one of the first hard rock bands to do so. (as well as Scorpions, Purple, Sabbath, Rainbow, Gillan, UFO before Judas Priest got the credit for doing what others did first - largely because no one had noticed Priest leaving the blues long before anyone had noticed they had Wink...).  Zeppelin eventually used blues in some numbers the way some pop groups employ rock ideas.

It's not just long songs - but what a band does with harmonies and rhythms. Most prog rock is about orchestrations and very in depth (and more correctly applied musical rules) than basic rock and obviously - formally structured numbers. By which I mean a 32 bar jazz ballad (Cole Porter) or a 12 bar blues (Howlin' Wolf) are not prog rock (obviously) but still well structured music. How Genesis apply the disciplines of styles is what puts them in the forever interesting category, well for me any way, and the others...

Prog rock is all about employing classical ideas to a rock base. Yes there are variations but this is the primary goal from the start.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 08:31
I've been saying for a long time that The Cure is at the very least a prog-related band that deserves to be on ProgArchives.  Thank you to BarryGlibb for being on the same page! . If Muse is here, in many ways a similar band, why isn't The Cure?  Robert Smith's music has definitely progressed over time, and incorporates a lot of different elements.  It's also so intelligently written and creatively arranged that I think Smith should get props.  My suggestion for inclusion would be the albums Pornography or The Top.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:47
Bauhaus is more prog than The Cure! And what about Fields of the Nephilim? They had long songs with different sections and keyboards, they're definteily symphonic prog IMHO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:56


Also The Cult for post metal.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 00:17
Originally posted by thwok thwok wrote:

I've been saying for a long time that The Cure is at the very least a prog-related band that deserves to be on ProgArchives.  Thank you to BarryGlibb for being on the same page! . If Muse is here, in many ways a similar band, why isn't The Cure?  Robert Smith's music has definitely progressed over time, and incorporates a lot of different elements.  It's also so intelligently written and creatively arranged that I think Smith should get props.  My suggestion for inclusion would be the albums Pornography or The Top.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2014 at 00:59
As a prog bass fetishist, I can state without any doubt that Mick Karn was the most progressive bass player ever. He played in such a forward/upfront way that few if any could or would want to imitate....Just youtube his name and you will be stunned....His non- inclusion on PA is a major slight. Cry

Edited by tszirmay - October 05 2014 at 01:00
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