Revisting DSOTM's Concept 41 Years Later

SteveG wrote: ^So it really makes no difference if you start the album on side two then conclude it with side one then? it is cyclic, is it not? Give it it a try. Cheers mate.

The Dark Elf wrote: Dean wrote:   SteveG wrote: ^So it really makes no difference if you start the album on side two then conclude it with side one then? it is cyclic, is it not? Give it it a try. Cheers mate.    It doesn't not work. Starting with the cash-register of Money is a bit of a sonic jolt to begin with but it does work and since the tracks segue perfectly the rest of it flows well enough. (and better than the CD versions where Money follows after Great Giggle without the protracted "intermission" that flipping over an LP naturally introduces)   Perhaps Floyd should have asked Ian Anderson for "The Hare that Lost His Spectacles" as an intermezzo.

The Dark Elf wrote: Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: ^So it really makes no difference if you start the album on side two then conclude it with side one then? it is cyclic, is it not? Give it it a try. Cheers mate. It doesn't not work. Starting with the cash-register of Money is a bit of a sonic jolt to begin with but it does work and since the tracks segue perfectly the rest of it flows well enough. (and better than the CD versions where Money follows after Great Giggle without the protracted "intermission" that flipping over an LP naturally introduces) Perhaps Floyd should have asked Ian Anderson for "The Hare that Lost His Spectacles" as an intermezzo.

I believe that may be the funniest thing you've ever posted. Live long and prosper. 


Edited by SteveG - August 22 2014 at 09:57

SteveG wrote:   And songs about a bloke that's desperate for money or people in a desperate situation like war, in the song like Us And Them, would seem to me to result in Waters writing some very desperate sounding lyrics. But who am I to question such wisdom?

rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote: Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: ^So it really makes no difference if you start the album on side two then conclude it with side one then? it is cyclic, is it not? Give it it a try. Cheers mate. It doesn't not work. Starting with the cash-register of Money is a bit of a sonic jolt to begin with but it does work and since the tracks segue perfectly the rest of it flows well enough. (and better than the CD versions where Money follows after Great Giggle without the protracted "intermission" that flipping over an LP naturally introduces) So the album would have been cyclical if not for the sound effects? is that Waters' contention? And songs about a bloke that's desperate for money or people in a desperate situation like war, in the song like Us And Them, would seem to me to result in Waters writing some very desperate sounding lyrics. But who am I to question such wisdom? Perhaps, you have considered the fact that whether or not it sounds desperate also depends on each one's interpretation of the lyrics, yes?  Because what sounds desperate to you only sounds wry and matter of fact to me.  Haven't we seen billionaires buy up football (soccer) teams even if they understand very little about the game, haven't we seen superpowers make friends or enemies out of the same nations/entities?  Far from being desperate, I find the words of both songs ring true to me even today.  Whether more so than the 70s or not I cannot tell.

Yes Roger, I would be remiss if I did not point out the fact that ultimately all lyrics are subjective and the meaning is ultimately based on the listeners undestanding of the lyrics and the relationship of the lyrics to the listeners own life experiences. How you and I interpret the lyrics to Money or Us And Them are both valid as Waters left a bit of vagueness or universality in them, enough to draw valid but slightly different takes on them. Lyrics are supposed to do that to some extent. They are not an instruction book for percise thinking, reacting or feeling. Your brain does all that automatically.

As an aside, Dean thought I was confusing the word desperate with disparate. As an American, I would have used the word disassociated instead of disparate. My wife, who is English, on the other hand..


Edited by SteveG - August 22 2014 at 13:39

SteveG wrote: Yes Roger, I would be remiss if I did not point out the fact that ultimately all lyrics are subjective and the meaning is ultimately based on the listeners undestanding of the lyrics and the relationship of the lyrics to the listeners own life experiences. How you and I interpret the lyrics to Money or Us And Them are both valid as Waters left a bit of vagueness or universality in them, enough to draw valid but slightly different takes on them. Lyrics are supposed to do that to some extent. They are not an instruction book for percise thinking, reacting or feeling. Your brain does all that automatically.

Edited by rogerthat - August 23 2014 at 04:53

rogerthat wrote: SteveG wrote: Yes Roger, I would be remiss if I did not point out the fact that ultimately all lyrics are subjective and the meaning is ultimately based on the listeners undestanding of the lyrics and the relationship of the lyrics to the listeners own life experiences. How you and I interpret the lyrics to Money or Us And Them are both valid as Waters left a bit of vagueness or universality in them, enough to draw valid but slightly different takes on them. Lyrics are supposed to do that to some extent. They are not an instruction book for percise thinking, reacting or feeling. Your brain does all that automatically. Right, but in that case, merely the fact that the lyrics of Money or Us and Them sound desperate to you (and not necessarily to everyone in general) doesn't mean there was no concept or that Waters was only pulling cotton wool over us all.  The concept broadly encompasses the things that drive people crazy and cause strife in the planet -  greed for money, war, the race against time and so on and so forth.  In that sense, it's a very 70s album (though the conclusion in Eclipse is already a lot more depressing and dreary than typical 70s optimism a la Anderson and his magic Eastern solutions) and where it differs is the way it chooses to narrate the concept.  I think one of the main reasons people might find the notion of DSOTM being a concept album questionable is that there is no protagonist here passing through different experiences and narrating these in first person.  In fact, a lot of it is in second person, stating everyday truths in a very matter of fact tone with just enough subtlety that it doesn't sound bald and crude and largely avoids topical references (which is why it continues to find fans even today).  But I would argue that that (the first person narrative) is the just the cliched idea of what a concept album is supposed to be (which has evolved over the last few decades) and it is not necessary that every artist who comes up with a concept album has to frame it that way alone.

Once again, Roger, it all has to do with subjectivity and how I myself interpret Waters lyrics in songs like Money and US And Them. And an important point to consider is that I summarized those two songs down into two one simple description for the sake of an argument. Money, to me, is more straight forward, but Us And Them has various layers of meanings and shifting topics in its lyrics, so how you want to summarize that particular song into one brief word is up to you and by my own admission, it's not really proper and fair to the song or to Waters' intent. Please keep in mind also, that Waters is an Englishman whose lyrics are Anglo-centric and I'm an American that's never going to totally appreciate his points of view.

As for a concept album having songs that do not all have a relationship to the overall theme, I feel there are some concept albums with at least one, two or even up to three songs that seem disassociated from the albums main concept, regardless of what "bunk" the composer states in order to tie them together with the rest of the album. But I don't split hairs, I feel that the artist got 90% of the concept right where many others dare not even try. So, my hats off to them. I can think of one concept album where the main song seems unrelated to any concept at all. That album would be Thick As A Brick. But I give the composer credit as others would never even think of its "concept" to begin with. The cheeky devil. This will be my last PA post as I'm heading off to magazines with more technically involved topics, in which I'm much more at home with. Peace. Out.

Edited by SteveG - August 23 2014 at 13:17

Dean wrote: SteveG wrote: Dean wrote: SteveG wrote:  As an aside, Dean thought I was confusing the word desperate with disparate. As an American, I would have used the word disassociated instead of disparate. My wife, who is English, on the other hand.. <blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"> SteveG wrote:   For an album that was that universely lauded by it's group and critics as a concept, so it was only left to critics to connect the desperperate the dots. And lo and behold, a concept album was born. With many expanations regarding it's onvoluted dijointed thems, up untill this day do involved up to his day, it stil considerded a coherent concept.  My misunderstanding is understandable.  Otherwise I'm calling "bullcrap"  We have been going back and forth with so much wasteful useless pedantic serve and return bickering that I actually don't know at what point that post was written by me. I accept the fact that I'm as far from an articulate person as one can get with failing and erratic degrees of vision which is of no help, so for that I apologize. As far as your statement about "calling bullcrap', please be so kind inform someone who sincerely cares about what you think as, believe it or not, I honestly have more important things to concern myself with. Sorry to have embarrassed you in public, please go in peace.

Thus, life imitates art and people are driven to madness discussing whether an album is about madness.

I used to think it's an album about how time, money, work, solitude, the ennui in the middle class, etc. can work your mind and make you a complete/a bigger a-hole.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - August 25 2014 at 11:42

It's interesting that I never even thought of DSOTM as a 'concept album' when we first heard it in college.