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HackettFan View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:35
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:





Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Popular tastes are not mainly about what people genuinely like. They're what people are exposed to. And what they are exposed to is highly limited and mainly what suits corporate strategies. As an analogy, look at food. What can it possibly mean to say that the people in Lawton, Oklahoma prefer a diet of fast food to other types of well regarded cuisines. That's virtually all there is here. Popular likes and dislikes are a cultural (and corporate) artifact.
Yeah I don't think so.I love fast food and I also love healthy food.   I live on the westcoast, not the midwest, and whatever the good people of of Lawton eat is probably affordable and sustaining them through hard times.   I also have no doubt they like it.   Who doesn't enjoy a nice Wendy's burger now& then or some Popeyes with biscuits and slaw.   You think if there was, what, a "Pasta Pomodoro", or better yet a Chez-Panisse, that Oklahomans would stop eating fastfood?   I very much doubt it.   It is part of American culture the same way other hot, greasy, inexpensive things like Fish & Chips are part of England or grilled capybaras are a part of Venezuela.

They like it, sure. But liking here is meaningless. It is not constructed out of choice. I keep ordering diet Pepsi or diet coke at restaurants. Is it because I like it? No, I hate colas. My parents raised me on root beer, but if you want diet at a restaurant, that's your only choice. Even if someone does like colas it's meaningless to say someone likes their limited alternatives. Even when there is a choice cultural conditioning and practicalities such as time or money or other such things influence the choice. Liking has little to do with such choices, although we tend to grade our likes and dislikes on a curve. Yeah, I'll enjoy my diet cola because it's better for my day to day sanity than not enjoying it.
But you still don't like it and you know you don't like it.   The
difference is people who like Lady Gaga sincerely like her; her music,
her costumes, her bold attitude.   They see an artist doing something
new, or what to them is new, and they respond.   They can't really help
it, and you can't judge that as being ignorant of better music simply
because you don't appreciate the poor choice of diet softdrinks in your
area.   One thing has little to do with the other.

I think we may be disagreeing on what percentage of Lady Gaga's or other pop star's audience sincerely like their music. Some will, sure, there are all sorts of people out there, but that's exactly why I can't absorb the idea that people have flocked to any given popular music without social/commercial/peer manipulation. Some people go with what is popular just because it's popular. This can be intentional on some people's part, then it's annoying. Or it can be passive and naive, then it's sad. If you reshuffle the deck of popularity, you change what they like. This is not sincere in my notion of sincerity. To tie this to the topic of the thread, let me say that I think that if Prog became popular again, we would win some new converts, but we would also see a lot of fellow "fans" whose interest was a mile wide and an inch deep.

Well, hopefully this discussion is interesting enough, hopefully everything is good with you aside from debating with me and a couple others. Anyway, to your points:
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Prog's popularity was a flash in the pan, Pop music's is not.
I'm afraid not. Pop music is a flash in the pan over and over again. Pop music is not a musical genre. It is a category of commerce. Stuff has come and stuff has gone.
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

There's a reason for that.Nobody "goes with what is popular", that's an assumption.   I'm afraid you have it backward.   Popular is popular because people go to it.
Actually I said just the opposite; people do go with what is popular. However, things are not normally popular simply because people seek it out. To the contrary, it comes to them.
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

And unless you wanna accuse the music business of working with the CIA on mind control, there's no basis for thinking that a lack of exposure ~ which seems to be your main thesis here ~ is what prevents people from becoming jazz or classical or art music fans.
Colorful and flippant, but I actually do think the marketplace acts conspiratorially. Let me direct you to a thread I started earlier in the Prog Music Lounge called Redefining What People Want Redefining What People Want
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Why is it so hard to accept that the world does indeed dance to its own tune?[
I'm the one embracing that proposition, not you. That is exactly why I do not think people naturally fall into a broad consensus on what is good to the extent that we see repeatedly in the marketplace that supports pop music (whatever happens to count as pop music at the time).
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

The fact that we don't much like the tune doesn't mean the corporations are in control of tastes.   They are not the taste-makers, we and the journalists we like are.   We spend the money, we support the artists, we are the dream seekers, and we are the ones the corporations are watching.   They respond to the mass market, not the other way around.

No, corporations do more than respond passively to the mass market. Again, I'll just refer you to the thread I spoke of above.
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I know that's a shock, but in reality far truer than most realize.People who don't like jazz know they don't like it, people who don't like electronic music know they don't like it.  Maybe someday they will, but until then no one's going to spend their hard-earned money on something they don't like and won't listen to.  Period.
And of course people who don't like Prog say, "What's that?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:14
Okay let's imagine this: for a time, say a few years, the world is widely and equally exposed to all kinds of musics through all kinds of current media--  the airwaves are filled with as much Steve Reich and Fred Frith as they used to be with Katy Perry and Maroon 5.   You're postulation is that there would eventually be fewer pop fans and more avantgarde fans?   I find that unlikely and in fact would expect many to start clamoring for some old fashioned songs.  Don't be too presumptuous about people and their taste, they aren't sheep and they know what they like, just as you and I do.  To assume differently verges on arrogant.

But who knows; It certainly would be a very interesting experiment.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:23
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:


Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Exactly. Well put. Go with what you like ... as long as it has standards.
If the popularity of prog is really on its slow rise, then I can see that happening in the UK. I don't think it's going to happen in the US any time soon.
You've obviously never been to the UK. I'd also question whether Folk was ever particularly popular recently but then I live in Chav City (Birmingham) and have never paid much attention to the hipster parade. 

What about e.g. Loreena McKennith?

She has sold more than 14 million records worldwide.





Edited by Svetonio - September 01 2014 at 06:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:08
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


   Okay let's imagine this: for a time, say a few years, the
world is widely and equally exposed to all kinds of musics through all
kinds of current media--  the airwaves are filled with as much Steve Reich and Fred Frith as they used to be with Katy Perry
and Maroon 5.   You're postulation is that there would eventually
be fewer pop fans and more avantgarde fans?   I find that unlikely and in fact would expect many
to start clamoring for some old fashioned songs.  Don't be too presumptuous about people and their taste, they aren't sheep and they know what they like, just as you and I do.  To assume differently verges on arrogant.But who knows; It certainly would be a very interesting experiment.

As you laid it out, there would be only a marginal increase, I would guess. There would still be a sincere preference for accessible music over inaccessible music, I have no doubt about that (some Prog is accessible, some isn't). However, corporate entities would still have an interest in picking the winners for each genre and promote them at the expense of the others. A lot people might indeed want old fashioned pop, but there would be no consensus on what that is. Pop music would fracture endlessly until the corporate entities create a consensus for them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 07:30
I don't think the true point of this lies in arguing over "what's popular is somewhat controlled and delivered" - but in that those who have the money and influence don't play games - and run on statistical probability rather than the "chance" of enough people who "just so happen naturally/genuinely like something" being enough to maximize an ROI.

"What's going to maximize our ROI; Close to The Edge, or Katie Perry's new record?"

There are a lot of complex factors that go into unraveling the uncertainties of a target audience, and something like pop music does a fantastic job of sweeping a lowest-common-denominator market. It hits all the right places in all the right ways, maximizing what humans "hook" onto in regards to music. Short songs, catchy lyrics with sing-along verses and choruses (especially), and images that sell sex like hotcakes. All of these things hit the human psyche in just the right ways, that said corporations almost don't even have to worry about anything else most of the time. 

This is just intelligent marketing and business perpetuating itself through the music industry. It's no different than McDonald's being popular because 1. It's fast and easy 2. It's affordable 3. It's everywhere you freakin' look. That third point right there reinforces #s 1 and 2, and increases their power beyond their own means alone.

And I'm actually going to argue not in favor of there being conspiracy - but rather intelligent, intended planning ofcontrolled results (as controlled as they possibly can be, anyway) - because that's all ANY business is. Calculated risk.

If a sales rep is coming to your door selling anything in general, is he not planning or intending to potentially (and hopefully) make a sale off of you? He's not conspiring to do harm to you - but he's most definitely intelligently strategizing a way to market his product so that you convince yourself on an emotional level that this is what you want. That's the entire function of marketing itself. Conspire/conspiracy is a misdirecting word. Intelligent planning towards a controlled outcome is more accurate.

When PR/AR/R&D folk meet to discuss how to set up, organize, and operate ANY business or endeavor WHATSOEVER - they are organizing intelligence. There is no way around this. You can call it negative, you can call it positive, or you can look at it neutrally as it truly exists. It's just business, and businesses have plans for profiting. It can be hamburgers or Katie Perry - but there is a plan in place to maximize ROI. 

If you truly believe that these very organizations just put products out there without testing the market, using statistics, and molding products and services to yield the highest return - then I don't know what else to say. Pop music is the single-most fabricated and manufactured form of music that exists. It is the culmination of well - organized, strategized, and implemented marketing intelligence to a T. It's the pinnacle or apex of such an example, for me.

NOW, in regards to consumers genuinely liking said product once it's released - that's much more complex and harder to lasso. I think statistically, it wouldn't be too far off to claim that most people only like it because it's perceived as popular, like in the McDonald's example above. Accessible, affordable (most of the time), and freakin' everywhere (repetition is the single-strongest marketing tool in existence). This doesn't negate the groups of people who genuinely DO like the music, regardless of its popularity. I think to deny the former and claim the latter as the "reality" of this situation is incredibly naive, and doesn't take into account strategized marketing intelligence of those with a plethora of resources at their disposal. 

Take that as you will, but it's pretty obvious that most (not ALL) consumers WILL only choose from a shallow pool of options - rather than taking the extra time to go online, look up bands/products, and wait to have them shipped to them. Instead, they'll succumb to the immediate-self-satisfaction offered by whatever the popular market is selling at the moment.

Notice how I said MOST and not ALL - that's the entire point. MOST = enough to ensure a high ROI for the big cats. The rest of us can do what we want, as that doesn't affect their ROI (for the most part) - so ironically, that's where the freedom of choice you're assuming to be apparent genuinely comes into play. The free market is free in the sense that those with resources to influence it and create waves can essentially do whatever they want (within the legal bounds of regulation, of course). 

This discussion/debate is awesome btw, ladies and gents. No hard feelings and no personal jabs here whatsoever!


Edited by PrognosticMind - September 01 2014 at 07:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 09:52
And again...a topic gets analyzed to death by the erudite members of PA.
 
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 10:00
LOL yay! Not guilty for once. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 10:21
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

And again...a topic gets analyzed to death by the erudite members of PA.
 
LOL


LOL

I will sit on the sideline and throw smilies in too. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 10:42
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

And again...a topic gets analyzed to death by the erudite members of PA.
 
LOL

To erudite-ty...and beyond Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:08
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

 
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

^ Exactly. Well put. Go with what you like ... as long as it has standards. 
If the popularity of prog is really on its slow rise, then I can see that happening in the UK. I don't think it's going to happen in the US any time soon.
You've obviously never been to the UK. I'd also question whether Folk was ever particularly popular recently but then I live in Chav City (Birmingham) and have never paid much attention to the hipster parade. 
 
What about e.g. Loreena McKennith? 

She has sold more than 14 million records worldwide.



pfft... in 10 studio albums over a 30 year period, she's hardly contemporary or recent. The Corrs achieved 3 times those sales on half the number of studio albums, Clannad have done that six times over in a career that has spanned 40 years and Enya did better than 14 million with one album alone. Celtic music sells in spite of being Folk. 

Edited by Dean - September 01 2014 at 11:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:15
Originally posted by PrognosticMind PrognosticMind wrote:



<span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">I don't think the true point of this lies in arguing over "what's popular is somewhat controlled and delivered" - but in that those who have the money and influence don't play games - and run on statistical probability rather than the "chance" of enough people who "just so happen naturally/genuinely like something" being enough to maximize an ROI.</span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">"What's going to maximize our ROI; Close to The Edge, or Katie Perry's new record?"<div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">There are a lot of complex factors that go into unraveling the uncertainties of a target audience, and something like pop music does a fantastic job of sweeping a lowest-common-denominator market. It hits all the right places in all the right ways, maximizing what humans "hook" onto in regards to music. Short songs, catchy lyrics with sing-along verses and choruses (especially), and images that sell sex like hotcakes. All of these things hit the human psyche in just the right ways, that said corporations almost don't even have to worry about anything else most of the time. <div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">This is just intelligent marketing and business perpetuating itself through the music industry. It's no different than McDonald's being popular because 1. It's fast and easy 2. It's affordable 3. It's everywhere you freakin' look. That third point right there reinforces #s 1 and 2, and increases their power beyond their own means alone.<div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">And I'm actually going to argue not in favor of there being conspiracy - but rather intelligent, intended planning ofcontrolled results (as controlled as they possibly can be, anyway) - because that's all ANY business is. Calculated risk.<div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">If a sales rep is coming to your door selling anything in general, is he not planning or intending to potentially (and hopefully) make a sale off of you? He's not conspiring to do harm to you - but he's most definitely intelligently strategizing a way to market his product so that you convince yourself on an emotional level that this is what you want. That's the entire function of marketing itself. Conspire/conspiracy is a misdirecting word. Intelligent planning towards a controlled outcome is more accurate.</span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">When PR/AR/R&D folk meet to discuss how to set up, organize, and operate ANY business or </span>endeavor <span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">WHATSOEVER - they are organizing intelligence. There is no way around this. You can call it negative, you can call it positive, or you can look at it neutrally as it truly exists. It's just business, and businesses have plans for profiting. It can be hamburgers or Katie Perry - but there is a plan in place to maximize ROI. </span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">If you truly believe that these very organizations just put products out there without testing the market, using statistics, and molding products and services to yield the highest return - then I don't know what else to say. Pop music is the single-most fabricated and manufactured form of music that exists. It is the culmination of well - organized, strategized, and implemented marketing intelligence to a T. It's the pinnacle or apex of such an example, for me.</span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">NOW, in regards to consumers genuinely liking said product once it's released - that's much more complex and harder to lasso. I think statistically, it wouldn't be too far off to claim that most people only like it because it's perceived as popular, like in the McDonald's example above. Accessible, affordable (most of the time), and freakin' everywhere (repetition is the single-strongest marketing tool in existence). This doesn't negate the groups of people who genuinely DO like the music, regardless of its popularity. I think to deny the former and claim the latter as the "reality" of this situation is incredibly naive, and doesn't take into account strategized marketing intelligence of those with a plethora of resources at their disposal. </span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">Take that as you will, but it's pretty obvious that most (not ALL) consumers WILL only choose from a shallow pool of options - rather than taking the extra time to go online, look up bands/products, and wait to have them shipped to them. Instead, they'll </span>succumb<span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"> to the immediate-self-satisfaction offered by whatever the popular market is selling at the moment.</span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">Notice how I said MOST and not ALL - that's the entire point. MOST = enough to ensure a high ROI for the big cats. The rest of us can do what we want, as that doesn't affect their ROI (for the most part) - so ironically, that's where the freedom of choice you're assuming to be apparent genuinely comes into play. The free market is free in the sense that those with resources to influence it and create waves can essentially do whatever they want (within the legal bounds of regulation, of course). </span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"></span><div style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;"><span style="line-height: 11.5199995040894px;">This discussion/debate is awesome btw, ladies and gents. No hard feelings and no personal jabs here whatsoever!</span>

This.

Well...I'm referring to the original post where the formatting worked out right. WTF?

Edited by HackettFan - September 01 2014 at 11:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:19
Not that.

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I'm afraid you have it backward.
This.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:40
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not that.

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I'm afraid you have it backward.

This.

Frankly, there probably isn't a forward or backward, but rather a feedback loop. Both PrognosticMind and I have acknowledged that the consumer is at least in part complicit in what's popular, but viewing it as that alone is far too myopic. I also must say that we drifted inadvertently toward laying all the manipulation at the doorstep of the corporate element, but originally we were also including social manipulation as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

pfft... in 10 studio albums over a 30 year period, she's hardly contemporary or recent. The Corrs achieved 3 times those sales on half the number of studio albums, Clannad have done that six times over in a career that has spanned 40 years and Enya did better than 14 million with one album alone. Celtic music sells in spite of being Folk. 


Clannad. I've been trying to figure out where I know them from. Is that the group that did the backing music to that British Robin Hood series from the 80s?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:55
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

pfft... in 10 studio albums over a 30 year period, she's hardly contemporary or recent. The Corrs achieved 3 times those sales on half the number of studio albums, Clannad have done that six times over in a career that has spanned 40 years and Enya did better than 14 million with one album alone. Celtic music sells in spite of being Folk. 


Clannad. I've been trying to figure out where I know them from. Is that the group that did the backing music to that British Robin Hood series from the 80s?
Yup
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 14:48
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

...
I'm afraid you have it backward.   Popular is popular because people go to it.   And unless you wanna accuse the music business of working with the CIA on mind control, there's no basis for thinking that a lack of exposure ~ which seems to be your main thesis here ~ is what prevents people from becoming jazz or classical or art music fans.

Why is it so hard to accept that the world does indeed dance to its own tune?   The fact that we don't much like the tune doesn't mean the corporations are in control of tastes.   They are not the taste-makers, we and the journalists we like are.   We spend the money, we support the artists, we are the dream seekers, and we are the ones the corporations are watching.   They respond to the mass market, not the other way around.  I know that's a shock, but in reality far truer than most realize.

People who don't like jazz know they don't like it, people who don't like electronic music know they don't like it.  Maybe someday they will, but until then no one's going to spend their hard-earned money on something they don't like and won't listen to.  Period.

 
 
You really need to study and read about music that comes from non-commercial and oppressed systems, when the arts are the most important facet and force of information and opinion.
 
Since you are well versed in America and England, I have no say in your opinion, but I am not a great fan of the thinking that commercial societies ARE THE _______ DEFINITION OF ALL THE ARTS!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 18:24
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not that.

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I'm afraid you have it backward.

This.

Frankly, there probably isn't a forward or backward, but rather a feedback loop. Both PrognosticMind and I have acknowledged that the consumer is at least in part complicit in what's popular, but viewing it as that alone is far too myopic. I also must say that we drifted inadvertently toward laying all the manipulation at the doorstep of the corporate element, but originally we were also including social manipulation as well.

The basic premise that everyone is arguing in this thread is false. It is not an issue of complicity and manipulation but of simple demographics. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 18:33
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

pfft... in 10 studio albums over a 30 year period, she's hardly contemporary or recent. The Corrs achieved 3 times those sales on half the number of studio albums, Clannad have done that six times over in a career that has spanned 40 years and Enya did better than 14 million with one album alone. Celtic music sells in spite of being Folk. 


Clannad. I've been trying to figure out where I know them from. Is that the group that did the backing music to that British Robin Hood series from the 80s?

Yup
also the Pogues ( i might be mistaken though)

Edited by Icarium - September 01 2014 at 18:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 18:42
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

pfft... in 10 studio albums over a 30 year period, she's hardly contemporary or recent. The Corrs achieved 3 times those sales on half the number of studio albums, Clannad have done that six times over in a career that has spanned 40 years and Enya did better than 14 million with one album alone. Celtic music sells in spite of being Folk. 


Clannad. I've been trying to figure out where I know them from. Is that the group that did the backing music to that British Robin Hood series from the 80s?

Yup
also the Pogues ( i might be mistaken though)
You just might be.
What?
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