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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 13:45
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I have a question..

Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation?

It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU.

There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

The problem is, it is seldom about what the people wants. In the case of East Ukraine it is about the West and Russia fighting for a strategically important piece of land. I don't think neither gives a damn what the people in the region want.
Having said that, I think that by the 21st century people's will should be given enough power as to change what they have been imposed by history and by the acts of their long dead ancestors if they so will.
But as our Cheese friend says, such a change should require a majority of more than 50% and possibly also sustained in time. It can not be that a state can be broken by a conjunctural situation such as an economic crisis or a heated debate. I would say that the result for independence should be confirmed by repeated referendums during a period of say 5 years and with a majority of around 70%.


Yeah I understad what's happening in Ukraine, but the military and economic technicalities aside I'm asking - European and Americans mainly - do they support, in principle the right of east Ukrainians to determine their own future, even if that means joining Russia, who lets face it are essentally an enemy of the west.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 13:53
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I have a question..

Out of interest, if the main driver for independence is the wish for self determination, would those who in principle support the Yes vote in Scotland, also support the seperatist movement in east Ukraine to rejoin the Russian federation?

It's not comparable I hear you say, but the unfortunate violence in Ukraine aside, it is the apparent wish of many east Ukrainians to leave the sphere of influence of the EU and enter into another union with Russia. In the case of Scotland they want to leave the sphere of influence of the UK and go and join the EU.

There are simularaties in principle between the two bids for 'independence' and neither, ironically will result in 'self determination' IMO.

The problem is, it is seldom about what the people wants. In the case of East Ukraine it is about the West and Russia fighting for a strategically important piece of land. I don't think neither gives a damn what the people in the region want.
Having said that, I think that by the 21st century people's will should be given enough power as to change what they have been imposed by history and by the acts of their long dead ancestors if they so will.
But as our Cheese friend says, such a change should require a majority of more than 50% and possibly also sustained in time. It can not be that a state can be broken by a conjunctural situation such as an economic crisis or a heated debate. I would say that the result for independence should be confirmed by repeated referendums during a period of say 5 years and with a majority of around 70%.


Yeah I understad what's happening in Ukraine, but the military and economic technicalities aside I'm asking - European and Americans mainly - do they support, in principle the right of east Ukrainians to determine their own future, even if that means joining Russia, who lets face it are essentally an enemy of the west.
Yes I think they should be given the right to decide, but as I said the majority should be broad and confirmed in time.
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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:13
BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British?

What would be approximately the current support in NI for a reunion with Southern Ireland?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Have you seen the self-serving inept bloody mess that parish, town and county councils make of trying to run the piddling piss-easy things they are supposed to be responsible for? Spend 6 million quid creating traffic havoc by installing a bus lane on a suburban road that had 1 bus every hour until the privately owned but council subsidised bus company cut the service? Priceless. Devolved government will be like that but worse.


Yes, I have. I see it every bloody day, just as you do. And, no doubt, we would agree that the people who run these local institutions are as big, if not bigger, w**kers than the self serving w**kers at national level. You will have no argument from me there, Dean.

There. Where I suspect we might diverge (I don't know) is the reasons why. As ever, there is no simple answer to that question. However, I am in no doubt that one of the biggest reasons why is that the political system, the media, and the establishment in general have, for years now, taken away, bit by bit by bit, local authorities power, and centralised them, to the extent that councils, in effect, now have to run on an ever diminishing dole by central government, and most legislation is governed nationally.

It is virtually impossible for a local authority to actually physically run anything, and, of course, local council elections are, mainly, contested by the same political parties, and, thus, the same political w**kers, as are the national ones. Indeed, council elections these days are, basically, nothing more than a media beauty contest  in order to judge the (Un)popularity of the ruling party's the day. There is, in effect, absolutely no incentive for the type of innovative and entrepreneurial people you used to get in local government, because they would not be able to do anything.

That is one of the reasons why this referendum has been so important. Whatever happens, Scotland will get more powers. So will English and Welsh regions. What they do with it.........that will be the defining political debate of the next twenty years, IMO of course.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:21
For Gerinski: As I understand it, which doesn't mean much, simply because they were afforded the opportunity by some crazy politician. The Brits can clue you in better as to how. Something about giving Scotland the right to ask for succession in return of votes.

Edited by SteveG - September 18 2014 at 14:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:22
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British?
What would be approximately the current support in NI for a reunion with Southern Ireland?


Can't say for sure, but I'm half Irish and all my relatives (in the south) are catholics and want union. In fact, I don't know anyone in the south who doesn't and I know a fair few people in that town.

In the north that would be very different. There are a lot of protestant unionists there. I can't imagine a referendum there being as 'good natured' as the Scottish referendum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:23
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British?

What would be approximately the current support in NI for a reunion with Southern Ireland?

Gerard, Ni does actually have a devolved Assembly, as does Wales, whilst Scotland has a devolved Parliament.

NI has similar powers to the Welsh Assembly, I.e. Over health and education. They cannot, though, raise their own monies through taxation.

As for union with Eire, give it a few years now,when the majority of the population will be Catholic. Then you will get critical mass (pardon the pun)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:29
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

BTW I'm not knowledgeable enough. May I ask why Scotland can enjoy the right of self-determination and not Northern Ireland? is it because Scotland joined the kingdom voluntarily and NI was the result of a decision by the British?
What would be approximately the current support in NI for a reunion with Southern Ireland?

Gerard, Ni does actually have a devolved Assembly, as does Wales, whilst Scotland has a devolved Parliament.
NI has similar powers to the Welsh Assembly, I.e. Over health and education. They cannot, though, raise their own monies through taxation.
As for union with Eire, give it a few years now,when the majority of the population will be Catholic. Then you will get critical mass (pardon the pun)
Great pun laz but it is sad that the NI position, like the Palestine one, can never be resolved until every one worships the same god the same way. Amazingly perceptive of you but simply true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:44
^ yeah it's terrible when in the 21st century national feelings may still be shaped by religions, disgraceful
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:47
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I hope the Yes wins because this will give Brussels a good smack in the chops that they have deserved for so long.

Indeed, the EUSSR (Wink ) is becoming more and more another 'socialist paradise' mistake. Contemptible red ideologues who , as Ian Anderson put it so well once long ago, are Living in the Past.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 14:49

Of course that 'w**ker' Cameron may just be pretending that he wants the Scots to stay part of the Union.  He may have deliberately left DevoMax off the agenda just so the Scots would leave us.  THus guaranteeing a perpetual Tory Government for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ev.........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 16:38
You Gov pollsters say

54% NO

46% YES

Hmm ?


Edited by akamaisondufromage - September 18 2014 at 16:38
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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 00:38
It's NO!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 00:53
45% yes. 55% no.

Easier win than originally touted, so never trust opinion pollstersLOL

Still, 45% is still a sizeable vote for change and disaffection from and with Westminster. In many ways, the interesting politics starts now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 01:00
A new era of power has surfaced in the UK , the Scots are going to run the show, getting nothing but advantageous concessions from London, or else....next time....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 01:09
Yeah right, Tories have such a good track record of keeping their promises we believe every word they say. LOL
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 01:11
Poor Scotland hasn't broken free after 300 years tonight;all have voted no except Edinburgh.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:05
Edinburgh - No

Glasgow - Yes

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 02:05
Originally posted by DaleHauskins DaleHauskins wrote:

Poor Scotland hasn't broken free after 300 years tonight;all have voted no except Edinburgh.


R.I.P. Mr.Kenny Wheeler. A inspirational musician and soloist to this Los Angeles lifelong guitarist.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/19/kenny-wheeler-jazz-musician-dies-aged-84

Not Edinburgh, but Glasgow , totally unsurprisingly 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 03:02
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

I hope the Yes wins because this will give Brussels a good smack in the chops that they have deserved for so long.
 

Will it? How? 

Salmond ultimately wants an independent Scotland to be part of the EU, maybe even join the single currency. One point that is broadly and deliberately missed in the debate is that Salmond actually doesn't want independence at all. He wants full EU membership, which regardless of how one feels about the EU, is the polar opposite of independence. To have their monetry policy, social policy, employment legislation etc passed in a foreign country by people they haven't elected seems bizarre to me. They moan about the hold Westminster has had over them for so many years, but I'm wondering how much better off and independent they'll be as an EU economic basket case, indebted to the ECB and IMF for decades. 

If it goes that way that will put paid to Salmonds socialist wet dream, because they may be forced to sell off their public services to the private sector to pay their debts.

You have a good point here, but it would have shown that a superstate has no right to exist because the peoples that are trapped in it always prefer to govern their own affairs without an elusive superpower imposing some unwelcome rules.

Never mind, the No-camp pulled it off Stern Smile.
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