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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mind & Muse: The Ego and Creating Prog Music
    Posted: September 19 2014 at 08:42








How do you think David Gilmour felt when he was dismissed, along with Nick Mason, By Roger Waters after the completion of Pink Floyd's The Final Cut? After years of recording Floyd's most brilliant guitar solos and lead vocals on so many Floyd songs, Waters just turned his back on him, forever. And what of Waters'? The great conceptual and lyrical side of Floyd? Did his ego cloud his judgement?When Peter Gabriel informed the other members of Genesis that he was leaving because he felt that he was "out growing' them, do you think that the rest of the group rallied together to produce an album that was just as good or better than previous albums with Gabriel? Was ego in the form of pride involved? Or was it just business as usual for the group?

On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992).

Ego.

But what exactly is the relationship between an artist's ego and the creation of his or her music? Is there or can there ever be a balance between the two? What do think about this special relationship?

Or have you never thought about it at all?











Edited by SteveG - September 19 2014 at 14:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 09:20
I can honestly say that if I write a Chamber Rock piece clocking in at 15 or 17 minutes, I am not always open to suggestions from musicians who want to change the form or structure of it. If they present an idea or 2 that can reflect in a positive way..what I have written..then so be it. But that's not exactly turning my back on their efforts. If the project consists of team work, I usually shut up and listen to instructions. Sometimes critics and musicians confuse the process of a specific writer who has the music planned out and refuses to change it with a different musician/writer who becomes insulted over it and bingo! He/She ends up being  the one with the overblown ego. Many musicians who have music pre-planned in it's entirety prior to recording it are serious about producing an idea. That shouldn't be confused with having an ego simply because another musician in the band (who apparently does not understand this composer's approach) , wants to change the music...and justify's the notion by accusing the composer of having a inflated ego. Street musicians often say..."If it's my baby then leave it alone"  It's simply a matter of observing the situation  before printing your own version of it in a magazine...which is my advice to rock journalists.

I don't know for sure if Genesis were on a mission to compete with Gabriel. Remember that Tony Banks was a fine writer anyway and perhaps it just appears that they may have been on a ego trip. Roger Waters stated in the past that if he had allowed Gilmour to change or re-arrange his work for Wish You Were Here, that the album would differ in musical style and possibly not be as appealing to the thousands of Floyd fans who know the songs and appreciate the end product. Of course the album would have sounded much different, but it's too late now and it would be like changing the composition on Sgt. Pepper 40 years later. The fans love what Waters contributed on W.Y.W.H. and any "what if' ..is not considered because so much time has exceeded. If fans were able to hear the album today with all the sections Gilmour had suggested over Waters ideas, they might dislike it. Or any Floyd album for that matter where Gilmour's ideas were taken over by Waters'.  On another note...if Gilmour had been allowed to inject all his sincere ideas between 75' to 82' ...would anyone truly know the difference? It's catch 22 or just a big mystery with a lot of what if's. At any rate, The ego's clashed in that particular case. 

When Fripp wrote the piece RED, Bruford didn't understand what to do with the piece and was not giving Fripp the musical balance he desired at that time. Even though the recording is appealing to members on P.A., Fripp truly didn't accomplish what he desired in the drum department until he recorded "Breathless". It's difficult to understand just how Fripp wanted RED to sound and evidently he settled for what we all hear on record, although he was personally disappointed in it.


Edited by TODDLER - September 19 2014 at 09:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:15
I think they all of course have egos, they are artists....They must have an ego of some magnitude. Where those egos cause problems or not is in how the band handle them.

Mike Portnoy, an ego maniac.....After making his announcement, I believe he thought "man, these guys cannot go on without me!!??" Even if it was just a fleeting thought....would anyone admit to it, probably not.

But you know this stuff happens all the time....they are artists.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:21
I think every human being is prone to selfishness. It's just more in your face, when folks are 'famous' - be that in music, films or cooking. 
Without it art, in general, would be a rather bland thing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:22


@Catcher10: Yes I deffinately got the same impression about Portnoy but didn't want to ruffle feathers. I never considered his view as fleeting and that's incredibly possible for someone like him. He's such an over achiever, luckily for us, that he might have briefly lost focus before he was able to gather it back together. Funny, DT just is not the same for me without him.





Edited by SteveG - September 19 2014 at 14:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For Catcher10: Yes I deffinately got the same impression about Portnoy but didn't want to ruffle feathers. I never considered his view as fleeting and that's incredably possible for someone like him. He's such an over achiever, luckily for us, that he might have briefly lost focus before he was able to gather it back together. Funny, DT just is not the same for me without him.

I like that "over achiever", describes him well. I do consider him a master of his art and love his playing....I have said before in live concert reviews of Neal Morse shows how I thought his playing has much more feeling and emotion than the last few yrs with DT.

For me too, they are not the same anymore.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:30
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

I can honestly say that if I write a Chamber Rock piece clocking in at 15 or 17 minutes, I am not always open to suggestions from musicians who want to change the form or structure of it. If they present an idea or 2 that can reflect in a positive way..what I have written..then so be it. But that's not exactly turning my back on their efforts. If the project consists of team work, I usually shut up and listen to instructions. Sometimes critics and musicians confuse the process of a specific writer who has the music planned out and refuses to change it with a different musician/writer who becomes insulted over it and bingo! He/She ends up being  the one with the overblown ego. Many musicians who have music pre-planned in it's entirety prior to recording it are serious about producing an idea. That shouldn't be confused with having an ego simply because another musician in the band (who apparently does not understand this composer's approach) , wants to change the music...and justify's the notion by accusing the composer of having a inflated ego. Street musicians often say..."If it's my baby then leave it alone"  It's simply a matter of observing the situation  before printing your own version of it in a magazine...which is my advice to rock journalists.

I don't know for sure if Genesis were on a mission to compete with Gabriel. Remember that Tony Banks was a fine writer anyway and perhaps it just appears that they may have been on a ego trip. Roger Waters stated in the past that if he had allowed Gilmour to change or re-arrange his work for Wish You Were Here, that the album would differ in musical style and possibly not be as appealing to the thousands of Floyd fans who know the songs and appreciate the end product. Of course the album would have sounded much different, but it's too late now and it would be like changing the composition on Sgt. Pepper 40 years later. The fans love what Waters contributed on W.Y.W.H. and any "what if' ..is not considered because so much time has exceeded. If fans were able to hear the album today with all the sections Gilmour had suggested over Waters ideas, they might dislike it. Or any Floyd album for that matter where Gilmour's ideas were taken over by Waters'.  On another note...if Gilmour had been allowed to inject all his sincere ideas between 75' to 82' ...would anyone truly know the difference? It's catch 22 or just a big mystery with a lot of what if's. At any rate, The ego's clashed in that particular case. 

When Fripp wrote the piece RED, Bruford didn't understand what to do with the piece and was not giving Fripp the musical balance he desired at that time. Even though the recording is appealing to members on P.A., Fripp truly didn't accomplish what he desired in the drum department until he recorded "Breathless". It's difficult to understand just how Fripp wanted RED to sound and evidently he settled for what we all hear on record, although he was personally disappointed in it.


I didn't know this, thanks for the story. Very interesting to speculate on how the tune would've sounded like, if he had found the right 'expression'. As a sidenote, I've always wondered how Larks' Tongues and Red would've felt like if Andrew McCulloch had stayed behind the drumming kit.


Edited by Guldbamsen - September 19 2014 at 10:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:15
You mentioned Floyd Steve, which to me, is THE poster-child of democracy in music (read: music I love). As much as I adore The Wall, there's something gone missing even there, something that crystallized in The Final Cut. When these guys worked together and came up with the material collectively, they were absolutely brilliant. 
Funny thing is that my current favourite of theirs, Atom Heart Mother, was a Frankenstein creature made up of seemingly arbitrary pieces strung together. I believe they all came up with different ideas, and then it all came together with Ron Geesin stepping in. In the end it's more Ron's baby than any of the Floyds'.
Both Roger and David openly hate it and have on numerous occasions referred to it as something of an embarrassment. If we're talking egos, then I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason as to why they never liked it and why they've felt the need to speak so condescendingly about it, may well be down to it ultimately having been crafted in the hands of Geesin -not theirs. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:18
Problems in any art form are never actually problems so much as inconsistencies. Some listeners will want it to take one side of that inconsistency whereas the artist may have intended to be the other. For instance, they might write a song that moves about with a lot of energy and has a repeating closing section that lasts two minutes or so. The listener may think it needs to be cut down, whereas the artist may have wanted it to rest on that idea for a long time to create exhaustion so that the next track, a ballad, won't seem like a huge drop in energy. So the solution may be to make the section even longer (or just leave it the way it is), but the listener may be stuck thinking it needs to be shorter until they hear the effect the artist is trying to create.

I take criticism when I agree with it, but sometimes it makes little sense within my framework of a song. This isn't ego so much as knowing my own music. If someone hears a problem, there might be one, just not always the problem they identify it as. Unfortunately, people on both sides can get a little too thin-skinned.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 11:47
I've never met a musician who isn't an expert in humble bragging.  Smile We all do it (myself included) because we're proud of the art we create and want others to feel that same sense of joy we feel when we create music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 12:02
Some of it may be ego, but it is often a matter of different perspective, We (the listeners) would want another Beatles album, we don’t care about Lennons love life, That Gabriel had problems with his marriage, or if there was disagreements between David and Waters, making it impossible to continue with Floyd.
I don’t think it is about huge ego, it just looks different for the outside, where we don’t get the full story.
And I can easily imagine how hard it would be, to still create music with people (friends) I have worked with for decades.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 14:15
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

You mentioned Floyd Steve, which to me, is THE poster-child of democracy in music (read: music I love). As much as I adore The Wall, there's something gone missing even there, something that crystallized in The Final Cut. When these guys worked together and came up with the material collectively, they were absolutely brilliant. 
Funny thing is that my current favourite of theirs, Atom Heart Mother, was a Frankenstein creature made up of seemingly arbitrary pieces strung together. I believe they all came up with different ideas, and then it all came together with Ron Geesin stepping in. In the end it's more Ron's baby than any of the Floyds'.
Both Roger and David openly hate it and have on numerous occasions referred to it as something of an embarrassment. If we're talking egos, then I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason as to why they never liked it and why they've felt the need to speak so condescendingly about it, may well be down to it ultimately having been crafted in the hands of Geesin -not theirs.
Good points David as I never quite understood why AHM was always dismissed out of hand by Gilmour and Waters. It's definitely an odd album but incredibly progressive for it's time and definitely not the embarrassment that Gilmour and Waters have always made it out to be. Thanks for the insight regarding the Geesin angle.

Edited by SteveG - September 19 2014 at 14:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 16:08
  1. "Medieval Overture" (Corea) – 5:14
  2. "Sorceress" (White) – 7:34
  3. "The Romantic Warrior" (Corea) – 10:52
  4. "Majestic Dance" (Di Meola) – 5:01
  5. "The Magician" (Clarke) – 5:29
  6. "Duel of the Jester and the Tyrant" (Part I & Part II) (Corea) – 11:2       The gestalt of egos coming together to create a classic of the genre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 21:37
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think they all of course have egos, they are artists....They must have an ego of some magnitude. Where those egos cause problems or not is in how the band handle them.

Mike Portnoy, an ego maniac.....After making his announcement, I believe he thought "man, these guys cannot go on without me!!??" Even if it was just a fleeting thought....would anyone admit to it, probably not.

But you know this stuff happens all the time....they are artists.


If Alex Lifeson had an ego of any magnitude, he probably would have left Rush around 1982.


Edited by Metalmarsh89 - September 19 2014 at 21:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 06:25
All big rock musicians have an ego. It's un avoidable. It's not always a bad thing, but can lead to rash decisions on their part. The more disconnected from reality someone becomes for whatever reason, the more likely they are to errors of judgement.

In the case of PG and Genesis, I don't think either necessarily thought they were better than the other, they were just naturally moving in different directions. The band wanted the focus of attention to be on the music, and PG appeared to be more focussed on theatrical presentation. A basic differing of opinions. He probably left at the right time. He enjoyed a very successful solo career and the band went on to make some of their best albums imo. In te case of Floyd, I don't think Waters ego can even be measured. Floyd was always a hotbed of infighting and politics, which is a shame because the combo of the music and Waters lyrics and vision was an amazing and highly successful combination.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 08:23
Bit of an obvious thread.....most of us have ego issues from time to time ,famous or not , and musicians are no exception.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 09:45
Perhaps not so obvious Doc, as I've seen no responses that state that a temperamental artist is usually endured because of their unique genius, talent or vision. To me personally, the ends have usually justify the means.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:49
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89 Metalmarsh89 wrote:



Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think they all of course have egos, they are artists....They must have an ego of some magnitude. Where those egos cause problems or not is in how the band handle them.
Mike Portnoy, an ego maniac.....After making his announcement, I believe he thought "man, these guys cannot go on without me!!??" Even if it was just a fleeting thought....would anyone admit to it, probably not.
But you know this stuff happens all the time....they are artists.
If Alex Lifeson had an ego of any magnitude, he probably would have left Rush around 1982.
Hmmm, did Lifeson had an ego enough to dismiss finishing High School in order to follow his ambition of being a music artist?

An Ego does not automatically result in something negative. That's another thing I've noticed that's missing from this thread.

The ability to believe in one's self is its greatest achievement.

Edited by SteveG - September 20 2014 at 11:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps not so obvious Doc, as I've seen no responses that state that a temperamental artist is usually endured because of their unique genius, talent or vision. To me personally, the ends have usually justify the means.

That's not just in music but it applies to successful people in many walks of life.  Rotten attitude from a multi-millionaire sportstar is more easily endured than it would be if he was just a neighbourhood bully.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:19
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Perhaps not so obvious Doc, as I've seen no responses that state that a temperamental artist is usually endured because of their unique genius, talent or vision. To me personally, the ends have usually justify the means.

That's not just in music but it applies to successful people in many walks of life.  Rotten attitude from a multi-millionaire sportstar is more easily endured than it would be if he was just a neighbourhood bully.
There's a big difference between being creative artist an athlete, RT. Which one would you extend more latitude to?
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