Mind & Muse: The Ego and Creating Prog Music - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:45

A little ego goes a long way, a lot becomes obnoxious.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

rogerthat

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:53

SteveG wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Perhaps not so obvious Doc, as I've seen no responses that state that a temperamental artist is usually endured because of their unique genius, talent or vision. To me personally, the ends have usually justify the means.

That's not just in music but it applies to successful people in many walks of life. Rotten attitude from a multi-millionaire sportstar is more easily endured than it would be if he was just a neighbourhood bully.

There's a big difference between being creative artist an athlete, RT. Which one would you extend more latitude to?

Only as much to one as the other. Athletes (or their fans) make the excuse of being a bit differently abled in the upper storey (which in reality they are not) and artists lay claim to being uber sensitive or fragile. Either which way, nice pretext to exhibit behaviour that would ordinarily not be welcomed or maybe even tolerated by others. Can you imagine if Dave Mustaine was an obnoxious janitor, just how much slack, if any, would people cut for his behaviour. On the other hand, I can certainly imagine him as a kind of Jimmy Connors equivalent in tennis, badmouthing everyone and indulging in gamesmanship and always pretending he's right. And then being celebrated for making the game lively.

Edited by rogerthat - September 20 2014 at 11:54

SteveG

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 11:58

^Not tolerated by others? Are you sure about that?

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Polymorphia View Drop Down

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 12:22

From an audience's perspective, you could say the fact that they are talented artists makes a difference, but from another artist's perspective, they're more like an obnoxious co-worker.

SteveG

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 14:19

^I had to cut off my dicussion wth RT, but the point I was heading at was that most people in these positions, sucessful artists and athletes, are usually wealthy and most times are treated differently by the general population even when they themselves do not want to be. That usually leads to other things after a while, unfortunately.

Edited by SteveG - September 22 2014 at 09:49

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dr wu23

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 16:20

Not sure what you are saying there.. Everyone has an ego....and often artists have bigger ones.

What are you getting at?

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Posted: September 20 2014 at 18:15

Guldbamsen wrote:

Both Roger and David openly hate it and have on numerous occasions referred to it as something of an embarrassment. If we're talking egos, then I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason as to why they never liked it and why they've felt the need to speak so condescendingly about it, may well be down to it ultimately having been crafted in the hands of Geesin -not theirs.

Gilmour's and Water's impressions about their own works are as subjective as anyone's, an artist is a forever changing source of creativeness, whose works are just diferent stages of his professional career.

Btw I don't understand why Wright's thought was not told or regarded when talking about AHM, this album features so brilliantly such a typical PF's pastoral atmosphere, which I find present in Meddle too albeit in a lower degree. I really would like to know which was the extent of this (alleged or not?) Geesin's influence in the composition of those excelent pieces of music, for maybe the only PF album featuring also a symphonic-like touch which I appreciate so much.

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rogerthat

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Posted: September 21 2014 at 00:11

SteveG wrote:

^Not tolerated by others? Are you sure about that?

Yeah, in extreme cases. Do you think people would like to hang out with an egoistic self obsessed nut who sings verses of profanity every time he opens his mouth? No. Or rather yes, as it turns out, if he was a very successful person. In the normal course of events, people would like to be treated nicely by those whom they deal with.

Edited by rogerthat - September 21 2014 at 00:11

rogerthat

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Posted: September 21 2014 at 00:14

SteveG wrote:

^I had to cut off my dicussion wth RT, but the point I was heading at was that most people in these positions, sucessful artists and athletes, are usually wealthy and most times are treated differently by the general population even when they themselves do not want to be. That usually leads to other things after a while, unforntunately.

I am not sure about the "do not want to be" part. Ego does take over after a point, not for everyone but for a lot of such artists or successful people. In the run up to the US Open, Federer thanked the authorities for putting him on Centre Court night after night where he would enjoy demonstrating his skills and he might not enjoy playing if he was put on a smaller court. Perhaps it was a veiled warning not to put him on Louis Armstrong where he lost to Robredo in 2013 but in any event, what happened to tennis? Here I was thinking tennis players just love playing above all but it's not quite so simple as it turns out. They start believing in the larger-than-life image of theirs that the media projects and begin to feel they have earned the right to be treated differently. This holds good in all walks of life. When my company's chairman, a very well known and well respected figure in the nation, stepped down after a long career, he remarked that the company had a culture where the juniors literally prostrated to the top guys (including him). Right, so did he ever tell them that it was totally unnecessary? Did he ever tell them it was not necessary to address him as Sir and he could be called Sir? I think not because the Sir culture is still very deeply entrenched in the company and I have only been a couple of years in the company. Mostly everyone would like the royal treatment, especially if they get it without expressly asking for it. That also becomes their downfall when their luck runs out but that's a different story.

Edited by rogerthat - September 21 2014 at 00:19

SteveG

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Posted: September 22 2014 at 09:53

dr wu23 wrote:

Not sure what you are saying there.. Everyone has an ego....and often artists have bigger ones.

What are you getting at?

Sorry for the confusion Doc, I was curious to see how others who might have dealt with super egioc people like recording artists deal or have dealt with them. As for myself, I just relied on my ever present calm nature and personal charm. Wink

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TODDLER

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Posted: September 22 2014 at 09:54

It should be a team effort when the band is writing together, but if there are 2 outstanding writers IN the band, then those who are not very good writers, but contribute ideas...should have the respect for the 2 writers and actually be decent enough as a human being to give them their space. You can work as a team , but if a few members are more schooled than you, more experienced as writers, multi-talented, and possibly more talented , you simply have to shut up and listen. If you spend more time attempting to impress them with your lame writing than learning from them, you will never learn anything and it will take you twice the amount of time to ever reach their level. When a person is crushed by the talents of someone else, then their ego takes over. They should be humble and learn from the experience. There are loads of Progressive Rock musicians that hail from the 70's and have taken their playing abilities to higher levels because they were humble and listened to the Prog masters they worked with in famous Prog bands. Lol!

Dean

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Posted: September 22 2014 at 13:25

TODDLER wrote:

It should be a team effort when the band is writing together, but if there are 2 outstanding writers IN the band, then those who are not very good writers, but contribute ideas...should have the respect for the 2 writers and actually be decent enough as a human being to give them their space. You can work as a team , but if a few members are more schooled than you, more experienced as writers, multi-talented, and possibly more talented , you simply have to shut up and listen. If you spend more time attempting to impress them with your lame writing than learning from them, you will never learn anything and it will take you twice the amount of time to ever reach their level. When a person is crushed by the talents of someone else, then their ego takes over. They should be humble and learn from the experience. There are loads of Progressive Rock musicians that hail from the 70's and have taken their playing abilities to higher levels because they were humble and listened to the Prog masters they worked with in famous Prog bands. Lol!

When someone starts calling it "my band" instead of "our band" it's probably time to start looking for another band.

What?

SteveG

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Posted: September 22 2014 at 13:29

^Right On.

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 09:19

Ego and musicians. Everyone says what a shame Cream split up, all down to Ginger Baker, pity Richie Blackmore left Deep Purple, why did Band A split up, why did someone stay so long in Band B ??????

- imagine you're painting a picture. Except it's not you. It's five people doing it. One starts drawing a cat in the bottom of your masterpiece. So you have a "creative difference". Then another one draws a little house with smoke coming out of the chimney. Cat Drawer and House Drawer fall out. Except you quite like the house. In the meantime, someone is crayoning over your artistic impression of La Gioconda..... then you all fall out.

So you go down the pub. And, all being friends, yes, you work out that it's OK to have a moustache on the Mona Lisa. So eventually the picture is exhibited. Everyone says "We like the cat. But the moustache has to go."

Cat Drawer says let's do a picture with cats in. You all sulkily agree. So you do lots of cats. Housey drawer gets a few houseys in. You let him. No one really likes the finished picture. You exhibit it. General public says it's not as good as that other lot who do better cat pictures. The cats have bigger noses. So you all fall out and the recriminations begin.

The thing is, being in a band means joint effort for a common cause, and this is very, very difficult where a creative process is concerned. This is why bands have a half life at best and three albums then an explosion at worst.

moshkito

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:06

Hi,

I'm a writer.

I know what I see and I write it down, the best I can. And as is very clear and visible in the poetry, there is no such thing as an "ego" ... this is what is written, that is what I SAW, and that is how I DESCRIBED it, to satisfy my inner VISION.

That is not an EGO. That is someone's vision.

Now comes the issue ... how to deal with 2 or 3 other people in order to create something cohesive, and we have heard all the stories and some were pretty and some were ugly.

I don't think that Roger hates David any more than David hates Roger. I think they respect each other enough to realize that together they did a lot ... a hell of a lot ... that became way bigger than they had imagined. I find the stuff written on it pathetic and stupid in many situations, and in general they are either trashing one or the other, which is not necessary, but rock "fans" (and "idiots") keep thinking that we have to have some hate to be able to say anything. Or that one has to be right and the other wrong, so we can find some trash on the media this or that?

The best example I have, is The Beatles. The bootlegs showed 4 people, living normal lives. All of the books are ridiculously written to appeased the middle class ideal of fame and fortune and ego ... because the social design needs you to think that some people are better than others, or you will NOT BUY THEIR BOOK, CD, OR CRAP! Or religion for that matter!

I find it offensive, in these discussions ... because in the end, all it is doing is disparaging the most precious of human qualities ... that of creativity, and the ability, desire and dedication to translate it to something that some "public" might understand as some form of entertainment that gives them the right to judge ... everyone ... up to and including Jesus the Christ!

Give it a break!

Edited by moshkito - September 23 2014 at 14:07

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:28

Rick Robson wrote:

Guldbamsen wrote:

Both Roger and David openly hate it and have on numerous occasions referred to it as something of an embarrassment. If we're talking egos, then I've always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason as to why they never liked it and why they've felt the need to speak so condescendingly about it, may well be down to it ultimately having been crafted in the hands of Geesin -not theirs.

Gilmour's and Water's impressions about their own works are as subjective as anyone's, an artist is a forever changing source of creativeness, whose works are just diferent stages of his professional career. Btw I don't understand why Wright's thought was not told or regarded when talking about AHM, this album features so brilliantly such a typical PF's pastoral atmosphere, which I find present in Meddle too albeit in a lower degree. I really would like to know which was the extent of this (alleged or not?) Geesin's influence in the composition of those excelent pieces of music, for maybe the only PF album featuring also a symphonic-like touch which I appreciate so much.

Not the whole of the album but the title track was indeed the work of Geesin. This is common knowledge to most Floyd fans though, and I've never read anything from the band members to contradict it. Geesin glued the individual band member's bits together. He was also fully in charge of the choir, which he was a bit disappointed of. He's often spoken about his will to push the singers even further than what he already did. Without Geesin the Atom Heart Mother suite would've been unrealised or a huge mess imho. As it is, it's still a huge mess, but there's beauty and a storyline running through it that wouldn't have been there, If it hadn't been for Geesin.

Edited by Guldbamsen - September 23 2014 at 14:31

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SteveG

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 14:52

^Great explanation on AHM, David. You got me listening to it after many years and it is superb.

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Rick Robson View Drop Down

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:15

Guldbamsen wrote:

Rick Robson wrote:

Guldbamsen wrote:

Gilmour's and Water's impressions about their own works are as subjective as anyone's, an artist is a forever changing source of creativeness, whose works are just diferent stages of his professional career. Btw I don't understand why Wright's thought was not told or regarded when talking about AHM, this album features so brilliantly such a typical PF's pastoral atmosphere, which I find present in Meddle too albeit in a lower degree. I really would like to know which was the extent of this (alleged or not?) Geesin's influence in the composition of those excelent pieces of music, for maybe the only PF album featuring also a symphonic-like touch which I appreciate so much.

Yeah I get your point now, he was the responsible for the orchestration and organization of this such a beautiful suite turned out in a piece with a strong symphonic appeal - in my point of view the reason why David and Roger hated it. However I feel an alike spirit in Summer 68 by Richard Wright, another stunning piece that I enjoy very much.

If we talk about a team effort I think it's good to remind the Alan Parsons credits as studio engineer on the Atom Heart Mother album, even if it was in a lesser degree compared to his work on DSOTM.

"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB

SteveG

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 18:35

I once heard the professional auto racer Mario Andretti say that part of his racing success was because he was selfish and that he did everything he could to insure that he was the number one team driver, that he had the best mechanics around him, etc. At first this shocked me because we're always taught that being selfish is wrong. I was very young when I heard this but it always stuck with me. What other things that we're taught are wrong but are actually an aid to us or to an athlete or artist?

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Dean

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Posted: September 23 2014 at 19:08

There is a difference between being selfish and being brattish. When ego manifests itself in a music artist it generally leans towards brattish behaviour.

Edited by Dean - September 23 2014 at 19:08

What?