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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Role of Computers in Prog
    Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:01
What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music? 

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techiniques? 

A lot of very loaded questions but with the increasing prevalence of computer-enhanced music being generated today, I'm just searching for the insights and opinions of other music lovers with regards to this phenomenon. Obviously computers are here to stay, and computers have allowed a access to publication of one's musical ideas to a far larger segment of the population, but, overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing? Is the quality keeping up with the quantity? Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s? Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
  
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:20
Computers are a-ok
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:39
Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 13:48
Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?That pretty much depends person to person. To me..on some instances it can sound quite robotic..yet sometimes it wud b beautiful...According to me it changes the feel of the music and voice..sometimes to gud effect..sometimes to bad.

Edited by addictedtoprog - September 21 2014 at 13:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:03
An example from another thread:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992). 
Studio manipulation has always been around, computers just made it easier.


Edited by Dean - September 21 2014 at 14:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:07
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO
Don't agree wid ur third point...sometyms performing in studio widout prior rehearsing may help.
Otherwise
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:09
I listen to prog on a computer.
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">An example from another thread:</span>


<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"></span>
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 </span><br style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">On a lighter note I'll convey a well know American recording studio story about an assistent engineer named Ron Saint Germain that was given the unenviable task of editing a Hendrix/Band of Gypsys studio jam into a posthumous album track for the ill fated 1975 album Crash Landing. An excellent editing and "punch in" engineer, Saint Germain spent countless hours editing and tidying up Buddy Miles sloppy drum solo. As he was playing the track back over the studio monitors, Miles happened to walk in to the studio at the time and hearing his great "solo", smiled broadly at Saint Germain and said "Ain't I a mother______!" Saint Germain didn't have the heart to tell Miles how much work went into tightening up his sloppy solo and Miles walked out a happy man. (see Hendrix: Setting The Record Straight by John McDermott with Eddie Kramer. Pub.1992). </span><br style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
</span>

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Studio manipulation has always been around, c</span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">omputers just made it easier.</span>
Hendrix???

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:10
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

 IMO


Not sure about it... After all, a band which wouldn't rehearse for a studio take may not be able to play their tunes on stage... Just sayin'...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:12
Yes he wud hav done.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:24
The tools aren't the problem.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:31
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music?
They made the recording experience much more accessible to the likes of true artists. Unfortunately, they've become much more accessible to way too many zit-faced non-talented kids, so maybe we are even here. B
ut there really should be no double standards. Give everyone a chance.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
It's really just a question of recording techniques vs. musicianship (playing techniques), not artistic integrity. I believe that true art comes from the mind.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
I've come up with some pretty good experimental cuts back in my early teens, so if you have a problem with that, you better make a really good case against that.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Depends strictly on how these tracks are generated. As long as the user planned all the sounds (notes, chords, sound effects), then my respect would depend mainly on the material. Otherwise, it's either respect or no respect solely for the computer/computerized equipment.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techniques?
I don't know them personally (of course) but I bet they would give it a shot at least once.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

... overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing?
Again, I have no problem with the evolution of the recording techniques.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the quality keeping up with the quantity?
I don't understand the question.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?
It doesn't really matter what recording techniques you are using as long as your material has value to it.

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
As far as music overall goes, I'm not seeing much potential in today's mainstream and underground/"underground" stuff as I found in the stuff from the 60's and 70's. As far as the evolution of recording techniques goes, again, I don't really care as long as the recording is potently done.

A computer is just a tool to me. The emotion factor should depend strongly on the artist, though sometimes I like to leave things to the computer (and give credit to myself for the "work" done ), which is like listening to somebody else ... but it's yours!  It isn't true art, but who's gonna know? But whether the cut is good or not depends on who is deciding.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 21 2014 at 14:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:40
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:






<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

What is your opinion with regards to the use of computers to create, track, mix and time music?
They made the recording experience much more accessible to the likes of true artists. Unfortunately, they've become much more accessible to way too many zit-faced non-talented kids, so maybe we are even here. B</span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">ut there really should be no double standards. Give everyone a chance.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you feel that there is a loss of artistic integrity when the musicianship is "assisted" by computers?
It's really just a question of recording techniques vs. musicianship (playing techniques), not artistic integrity. I believe that true art comes from the mind.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you look down upon artists who create and manipulate their music on the computer screen?
I've come up with some pretty good experimental cuts back in my early teens, so if you have a problem with that, you better make a really good case against that.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Does a prog artist have to be able to perform his/her music live for you to be able to respect him/her? That is, do you feel disappointed when a live performance has some tracks computer generated instead of all coming from live performing musicians?
Depends strictly on how these tracks are generated. As long as the user planned all the sounds (notes, chords, sound effects), then my respect would depend mainly on the material. Otherwise, it's either respect or no respect solely for the computer/computerized equipment. <div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Do you think a Mozart and Beethoven or Debussy and Mahler or Coltrane and Hendrix would have gravitated to computerized composition, or computerized recording techniques?<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
I don't know them personally (of course) but I bet they would give it a shot at least once.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>... overall, in your opinion, is this a good thing?
Again, I have no problem with the evolution of the recording techniques.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Is the quality keeping up with the quantity?
I don't understand the question.<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span>Is the conveyance of emotion as impactful as the studio recordings of the 60s and 70s?<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
It doesn't really matter what recording techniques you are using as long as your material has value to it.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

</span><span style="line-height: 1.2;">Is the spirit in music today as alluring and engaging as that of the "classic" period of prog?
As far as music overall goes, I'm not seeing much potential in today's mainstream and underground/"underground" stuff as I found in the stuff from the 60's and 70's. As far as the evolution of recording techniques goes, again, I don't really care as long as the recording is potently done.</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">A computer is just a tool to me. The emotion factor should depend strongly on the artist, though sometimes I like to leave things to the computer (and give credit to myself for the "work" done ), which is like listening to somebody else ... but it's yours!  It isn't true art, but who's gonna know? But whether the cut is good or not depends on who is deciding.</span>






I agree.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 14:48
^ Yeah, the span tags can really ruin a post.  You can just caret up (^) to my post for a quick reference in an edit.

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.
Can you make a case for that? Not playing the devil's advocate, just having a discussion.


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.
Does emotion really have anything to do with recording process (on the part of the producer and sound engineer)? Maybe on the part of the artist.


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb. 
Too much for one person to buy.

Originally posted by addictedtoprog addictedtoprog wrote:

sometyms performing in studio widout prior rehearsing may help.
OK, ... can you make a case for that?


Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 21 2014 at 15:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 15:13
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Too many questions....

The computer has decreased time and effort in the studio, essentially record it once and let programs fix it. Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

We have cleaner sounding recordings and the ability to make older recordings sound much better, regardless of format.

Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO

well said man!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 18:29
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 There is good and bad to computer aided music. IMO

Ditto, like with everything else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 19:03

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


Rehearsing for a studio take I think is a lost art.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Can you make a case for that? Not playing the devil's advocate, just having a discussion.

Well I have recently seen a couple documentaries where I heard artists mention this...it was either Muscle Shoals Sound or Sound City by Dave Grohl documentary. As I said it seems a lost art, because people want everything now rather than take time. Only my opinion....


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


Is there some lost emotion in the whole process? I think so...anything that can be done quick and easy does not need much emotion.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Does emotion really have anything to do with recording process (on the part of the producer and sound engineer)? Maybe on the part of the artist.


I was mainly thinking of the artist, but you bring up a good one in that producer and engineer can be influenced by artist emotions good or bad...or none. In the WHOLE process I think some emotion is lost with computer usage...Maybe not for those that grew up with them, but for some of us yea...


Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


But that does not equate to lesser quality of music....What we have is an insane amount of music that has been released due to computers, too much for one person to absorb.

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Too much for one person to buy.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 20:24
There is very little music recorded with MIDI that I like.  It's a different story
with arpegiattors, or rhythm machines, or other computer manipuated
sound.  I'm not sure why MIDI performance seems so foreign.  I'm aware
that Phillip Glass uses it to compose.  It would be really interesting to find
out what recordings use it.  I'm not philosophically against it so much it's
just that I haven't found anything done with it yet that I find appealing.  
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 05:03
The significant change that computers have enabled in music is not in the professional studio, that's not to say they haven't affected a considerable change in a professional studio because they have, but where they have produced the most profound change is in the amateur studio. Here I am not just talking of the "bedroom musician" who creates music solely on PC or produces backing tracks to their guitar or keyboard accompaniment, but also the aspiring band who can now produce good quality demo recordings without using expensive professional studios.

Back in the day the purpose of a demo was to send to record labels in the hope of getting a recording contract. Bands would either record live, hire a professional studio, or record something themselves using a cassette-based home studio such as the Tascam Portastudio 414 or 424. 

These tiny little cassette-based units were cheap and easy to use but still required a degree of skill and ingenuity to get the most out of them. Limited to essentially 8 inputs (4 mono and 2 stereo) mixing down to only 4 tracks the operator had to carefully build-up the track with successive over-dubs and bounce-downs. All of this was done "live" with no automation, the amateur sound engineer/producer had to use all the skills of a professional but with extremely limited resources. The demos produced using the 414 and 424 were adequate as a showcase for the band but could not produce a saleable product, sure, demos were sold at gigs, by mail and from band websites, but they were just demos, for example, this following track demonstrates how versatile a Portastudio could be in capable hands (not mine) but also reveals the limitations of the system:



(recorded in 1999 using a Portastudio 424) 

With the advent of cheap digital home recording everything went up several notches. With the Portastudio 788 TASCAM produced the first 8-track 24-bit digital recorder (Digital Audio Workstation) that could record 8 tracks directly to hard disc which could then be used by the amateur producer to record their band without using a professional studio. It could also interface to a PC optically so these tracks could be transferred to PC based software DAW, now the number of tracks available was essentially unlimited, as was the amount of post-processing that could be applied. Now the home-producer could produce a demo that was almost comparable to a professionally produced demo - generally it still required some professional mastering to make it into a saleable item but it was a game-changer.

This next track was recorded in 2005 using a 788 and initially mixed on a PC using very inexpensive software. The drum track was recorded in a professional studio (to give us a solid backing track to record to), but all the remaining instruments and vocals were recorded on the 788 in a disused cow shed and various band-member's homes. If I recall correctly this particular track is composed of 28 individually recorded tracks including 8 for Becki's vocals alone, something that was inconceivable in a home studio five years earlier. From this a demo was produced that secured the band a recording contract, the quality of the demo tracks (even the vocals that were recorded using a Sure SM58) were deemed to be good enough to release after remixing and mastering in a professional studio:

(personally I don't care for the drum sound on this version, my original drum mix had a more rounded, 70s-prog feel to it, that wasn't crisp enough for the drummer so it was changed. Later someone asked why we'd used a drum machine when we had such a good drummer... LOL)

Now some 10 years later bands can achieve near-professional quality without the expense of using a professional studio, demos are no longer copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy cassettes that are passed around at gigs, they are now good enough to be sold alongside 'proper' studio-albums to the extent that the term demo has all but disappeared, along with the notion of being an unsigned band. This can only ever be seen as "a good thing".

Computers have liberated music and ripped-open the world of music recording. While we should never ignore all the bad things that producers can do with computers, we should really concentrate on all the good they are capable of. I get tired of all the comments about manipulation and auto-tune, a computer is just a tool for doing a task, it is not what it can do that is important, but what you can do with it. I am proud of what we achieved using a computer and a cheap DAW, just as I am proud of all the "bedroom" music I have made using computers.

Prog On Dudes.


Edited by Dean - September 22 2014 at 05:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 23:34
Everything that can produce sounds it's legitimate
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
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