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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: September 27 2014 at 18:51 |
 moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
It is clear from Pedro's emotional response to my posts that he, and perhaps others, think I am defending the record labels here. I am not. I merely described the reality and made no judgement on whether that is right or wrong or good or bad. It is also clear that he, and perhaps others, finds the idea of making records being a business distasteful and somehow cheapens the art, but that's another topic of conversation and not what we are discussing here. |
Incorrect. I'm not anti-business any more than I am anti-idiocy! |
That's good to know.
moshkito wrote:
However, too many of us "artistes", do not want to have the patience necessary to deal with an accountant, to learn something simple about business that will get you going fairly well. In America, you CAN do this as a business and take your best shots at it. I don't know that the same "legal/commercial/tax-design" is a satisfactory idea for most people. |
I do know and it isn't. Most people running a business tend to have a good understanding of legal, commercial and tax, there is only one place where people who don't can run a business, and that's into the ground.
moshkito wrote:
One of the issues in "business", and I ran two restaurants, is that there is ALWAYS a small percentage that you are going to lose ... as the lettuce did not move fast enough, and you had to throw away half a case, and there goes the money. Likewise in a record business, there is a percentage that doesn't move, or in our example, was "stolen". Considering that we did not exactly "spend" money to create that stolen product, all you are accounting is INVISIBLE MONEY that you might have made, NOT LOST! It's money that you could have gained. |
That is not an example of stolen product. What you are talking about is called WASTE, this isn't INVISIBLE MONEY, and you are right, it is NOT LOST, it is THROWN AWAY. In all businesses a degree of WASTE is UNAVOIDABLE but EXCESSIVE WASTE is NOT - that's called BAD MANAGEMENT, and in the main it is INEXCUSABLE and BAD BUSINESS. (hey, all this SHOUTING is FUN, but that's enough, back to normal...) All industries have waste, it is a consequence of manufacturing that is factored in to the the cost of production and is accounted for in the retail price. Wasted food is a consequence of running a restaurant, the cost of that is factored into the price customers are charged for food, miss-planning and overestimating affects how much waste there will be, and no restaurants owner can predict to 100% accuracy how much of each menu item they will sell during any service, but experience will tell them which will sell more than others. In the UK the biggest cause of waste in restaurants is chefs putting too much food on the plate and our portions are already smaller than those served up in US restaurants. Personally, I would not have thought that lettuce, being a salad item and/or unnecessary garnish, wouldn't be something you would overestimate by any great amount, I dunno, you're the expert, but I seldom throw much lettuce away at home: that which isn't used (practically) everyday in my lunch box is used up cooked with scallions and peas in a chicken or vegetable stock in a dish called braised peas... if you are being cheffy it is called Petits Pois à La Française - much nicer than throwing half a case of lettuce in the bin... but I guess you know all that. No, none of that is stolen product. Waste in the record industry is pressing more CDs than you sell. In the days of vinyl those returned albums were melted down to make new albums, these days those CDs are either sold off at discounted prices (remainders) or sent to land-fill sites where they will remain buried underground for eternity. Those were never stolen, nor are they lost sales. It is not money they could have gained, it's money they wasted making CDs they did not sell.
moshkito wrote:
Just so you know, some of the biggest sellers of bootlegs and other illegal stuff, happened to be the same record executives, trying to buy off radio folks and this was huge enough in Los Angeles as to set off a massive payola thing, that is still not quite resolved, but showed how the place has changed, not to mention radio. |
Okay... you are aware we're not talking about bootlegs here aren't you?
moshkito wrote:
What is weird, is that I don't hear Bob Dylan complaining, or the Grateful Dead, and they were the 2 highest numbers of bootlegs out there. And they will be remembered. This has helped me re-think the steal thing, and the reason why I have no respect for Metallica or a handful of bands, that want the money and don't care about anything else ... in other words, they are merely defending their lifestyle! NOT YOURS, OR MINE, btw ... because the law is designed to protect them! |
Okay... you are aware we're not talking about bootlegs here aren't you? And you do know that bootlegs are illegal don't you? Metallica were not fighting bootlegging when the took on Napster, they were fighting the illegal copying of their studio albums. Sure they cared about the money, when your income is dependant upon the goods you legitimately sell then people selling verbatim copies of those goods is directly affecting your income, then you are going to care about the money. And let's get one thing absolutely straight here - whether Metallica defend their lifestyle or not, it has abso-f**king-lutely nothing to do with your lifestyle or mine - zip, nadda, nix - nothing what so ever.
moshkito wrote:
I'm not a great fan of the piracy side of things. Because that is nasty and un-cool. |
So...
moshkito wrote:
We need the piracy. |
What the bloody-f*ck was that about?
moshkito wrote:
But the bootleg side, FOR ME, is not about "piracy", and I think this is where I made the error, in your discussion. Piracy, in your desctiption, is stealing the CD, relabeling it and selling it. Yes, I would castrate that fudger as fast as you would! |
Ah, right... an error. I see.
moshkito wrote:
But the bootlegs, is another story. It's like night and day with the bootlegs, and what you learn from the artist is far more exciting and beautiful in the whole context of the artistry involved, than otherwise. This was the case of the "big ones" with the bootlegs. They were magnificently different, and you learned something about the persons behind it. You can not see that in the LP's at all! The 15 different versions of "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" are magnificent. So are the 15 different versions of "Echoes". So are the 15 different versions of "Atom Heart Mother". You might say they were bored, but you and I are the listeners, and we experience different things when hearing something different. This is the benefit of the artistry in the bootleg area. |
Okay... so you are not aware we're not talking about bootlegs.. And you do know that bootlegs are illegal right? And you do know that we do not discuss illegal bootlegs on this site, don't you?
| 5. No Illegal activities. Posts and threads promoting or facilitating file swapping, drug abuse, or any other forum of illegal activity are not permitted. Any such posts will be deleted, and the member warned. |
I'd have thought that it would have moved up the chart, but no, it's been stuck at #5 for almost ten years now, complete with an uncorrected spelling mistake. hey-ho
moshkito wrote:
But the whole "piracy" thing, is not something that I will stand by or accept. And whatever you do, please at least understand this about me. I'm about the artistry, not the piracy ... even though I have had a screenplay stolen, and will never be able to get another one sold because mine are now protected at a couple of national libraries. And this intimidates a group of business folks, that are looking to make money, and don't really give a darn about your work. |
Stealing is stealing. Doesn't matter who commits the crime, it's still a crime. If the Label steals from the Artist it's a crime, if the "fans" steal from the Label and/or Artist, it's a crime.
moshkito wrote:
Btw, I DID PRODUCE a record album, for Guy Guden. The total cost for 1000 copies was $2800 dollars (sorry, don't remember the exact figure), or about $2.80 per album. This was in 1978, by the way. That included the hard cover and the cellophane and Guy's design and such. It did not include the "master" which the folks at the place did for a nominal small fee, since their money was obviously in the number of LP's done. I did not lose on that deal and we got the money back for it, and the rest was saved. It featured Guy's comedy. Just like the discussion here, the album was fine but Guy's work on the air in his comedy was far superior to the album, even if he was hoping to use it as a lead in to his acting ability, which was exceptional and quite disciplined on the stage. |
You do know that he wasn't A REAL PIRATE don't you, that patch and hopping around on one leg going "Arrrh" all the time was just an act. And you are aware, I assume, that Space Pirate Radio wasn't a real pirate radio station but just a night-time radio show transmitted legally during the dead hours. See, real pirate radio steals from the Artist, they play the records without paying performance royalties, and Gus the Clown and KTYD, being legitimate and not at all Pirates, paid their performance royalties to ASCAP like good little boys, because if they didn't those nasty men in suits would have closed them down wouldn't they? Yes they would.
moshkito wrote:
All in all, just don't confuse what I posted. I do not support piracy, and will not even REVIEW an album that I do not have the CD of! Why? ... I LOVE THE MUSIC I HAVE ... you know and understand that, and I do not wish to corrupt that love and appreciation. that appreciation was acquired from a long time of buying a lot of LP's, imports, all the way to 1985 and 1990, because it was the only blood that fed this vampire. Piracy, for me, was always theft, as it still is. |
So...
moshkito wrote:
We need the piracy. |
What the bloody-f*ck was that about?
moshkito wrote:
But I have seen theft on my own work. But waiting for a nickel to arrive in my mail tomorrow is not something that I can live with or from. Besides that, I'm an "enfant terrible" and like many of us here, extremely independent, but I will tell you, that if someone robs me, go ahead, but that person's kharmic disposition is going to take a severe hit, and hopefully it won't destroy their life or family! |
Nice. I'm have no time for karma or any other imaginary nonsense, I want practical magic. No, not magic, I mean practical punishment. If someone steals from me I want them punished to the full extent of the law. If nailing their head to the table was the legal punishment for stealing then I may have second thoughts, (and then so would they, that being the nature of deterrent), but wishing them bad karma, nah... that doesn't work for me.
Edited by Dean - September 27 2014 at 19:05
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zachfive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 13 2005
Location: Kitsap WA
Status: Offline
Points: 770
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Posted: September 27 2014 at 21:59 |
Thom Yorke's new album is being released through BitTorrent. It still requires a monetary purchase but could be a step in the direction in allowing artists to get their work out there and known, while at the same time receive a decent compensation for their work.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 05:51 |
Dean wrote:
If the Artist's royalties are less than the Advance then the Artist gets paid nothing and the Label takes the difference as a loss, he does not demand that money back. If the band was moderately successful the way he gets it back is by demanding a new album (the "obligatory contractual album"), if the album was a dud then the Label cut's his losses and the Artist is dropped. Those losses come from the "80%" cut the Label takes from sales of the albums from all his Artist, whether they are successful or not.
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A footnote: When making a first album the Label is taking a gamble on the Artist. Neither of them know for certain whether the album will be a success, and as I implied earlier, every one involved expects it to do well. No one goes into a studio expecting to make a bad album.
The Label has made an investment in the Artist and his album, and like all investors wants to see a return on that investment. If it made a loss then he has two choices - take the loss and stop there, or increase his stake and have another gamble, take another shot at the 20:1 odds of having a successful album.
This is a risk that the Label is prepared to make if he believes the Artist can deliver. This is clouded by the Second-Album-Syndrome of course but even that can work to both the Label and the Artist's advantage as it promotes the First Album as being better than the Second and can (in rare cases) increase the sales of that first album. The sales of both albums can be enough to recoup their losses. Conversely a better second album (and there are 100s of examples) can increase interest in an otherwise overlooked début.
So sometimes the Artist is encouraged to make a second album even though the first was a flop. The Label wants this second album to do well because it has to recoup the investment it has made on both albums, so now he applies some pressure on the Artist to deliver something that will sell.and that means making something that is more commercially viable; he has already increased his risk by continuing to invest so he wants the Artist to play safe and not gamble with his money. This is of course interfering with "artistic integrity" of the Artist and can have an adverse effect but, contrary to popular belief, often it does not because like it or not, the Artist also wants to earn money from the albums they make.
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TVHS
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 23 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 10:48 |
I'll post it again and I'd like a response from pro-downloading brigade.
It cost me roughly 500 euros to release my debut single and that's without factoring in other expenses such as equipment.
Thus far I have 8 sales which amounts to less than 8 euros.
Without being able to at least break even, where is the incentive for me, or any other artist for that matter, to continue creating good quality recordings?
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 11:06 |
Can I join TVHS in saying that I'm in the same boat ? ;-)
I'll factor in equipment as well..... let's see. Six saxes. Five guitars. Two basses. Two flutes. Drums. Two keyboards. Assorted MIDI gear. Two computers. Thousands upon thousands of pounds worth of software. Microphones galore. Guitar and bass direct boxes etc etc etc. 38 years of playing.
Latest album given 4/5 stars here, praised by some big names in Kraut/ Psychedelic rock..... 8 downloads in a month. Paying downloads, that is.
I noticed I had about 20 plays yesterday, a lot from this site, where people had gone on and played the entire album - using their PC as a radio - and then just left without paying. So, they apparently liked it enough to play the lot.... but not enough to put their hands in their pockets. With the last album, 4000+ plays, 2000+ free downloads, and enough money to buy a hamburger. Critical acclaim, no money.
Now, this isn't piracy per se, but it's an illustration of what musicians go through at the moment. Over the last few years, the perception is that music is free and you don't have to pay for it, which is all well and good for the listener, but.... the simple fact of the matter is that I don't have to release anything. It is becoming more and more of a headache to do so and the temptation is to circumvent any contact with the (non) fee paying public and just do stuff for my own amusement, and for a circle of trusted friends. I dare say that a lot of musicians will just utterly give up in a while. Some will continue, of course. But. Do small, specialist genres such as prog rock have enough spare musicians to be able to lose quite a few due to attrition ? I don't think so.
THEN people say "Where's my T shirt ? Where's my CD ? Where's my live gig ? " - and then complain about the Death of Decent Music. 
Edited by Davesax1965 - September 28 2014 at 11:07
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 11:15 |
PS It's pretty sad when musicians have to say to people "please buy our music, don't rip us off."
Because that means that one half of an unwritten agreement has been broken. There are two halves to the agreement, of course, and if musicians start voting with their feet and do something else, there is no more decent music and it's off to the back catalogue for everyone.
I had a great day today doing nothing other than playing on a flight simulator. Was going to do some recording, except I got up, looked at the download stats for my albums and thought "Can't be bothered." So I had a fly around and then got a Strat out and played some Jimi Hendrix style blues for myself. I can see more days like that coming up for a lot of musicians. If we're not already there. ;-)
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TVHS
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 23 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 12:54 |
I can't even post a link to my music on the unsigned bands forum :D
Absolutely agree with you Davesax. I'm not asking for a private jet or a 1000 brown M&M's. It would be nice to be paid for my work is all. Just like a carpenter, plumber etc.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 13:19 |
TVHS wrote:
I can't even post a link to my music on the unsigned bands forum :D
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Why?
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What?
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TVHS
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 23 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 15:00 |
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I'm not sure, it just tells me I don't have permission to make a thread there.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 28 2014 at 16:52 |
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I'm guessing that was when you had made less than 5 posts, have you tried it recently?
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What?
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TVHS
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 23 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13
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Posted: September 29 2014 at 09:40 |
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No but I'll give it a bash now, thanks :)
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19942
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Posted: September 29 2014 at 09:46 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
Can I join TVHS in saying that I'm in the same boat ? ;-)
I'll factor in equipment as well..... let's see. Six saxes. Five guitars. Two basses. Two flutes. Drums. Two keyboards. Assorted MIDI gear. Two computers. Thousands upon thousands of pounds worth of software. Microphones galore. Guitar and bass direct boxes etc etc etc. 38 years of playing.
Latest album given 4/5 stars here, praised by some big names in Kraut/ Psychedelic rock..... 8 downloads in a month. Paying downloads, that is.
I noticed I had about 20 plays yesterday, a lot from this site, where people had gone on and played the entire album - using their PC as a radio - and then just left without paying. So, they apparently liked it enough to play the lot.... but not enough to put their hands in their pockets. With the last album, 4000+ plays, 2000+ free downloads, and enough money to buy a hamburger. Critical acclaim, no money.
Now, this isn't piracy per se, but it's an illustration of what musicians go through at the moment. Over the last few years, the perception is that music is free and you don't have to pay for it, which is all well and good for the listener, but.... the simple fact of the matter is that I don't have to release anything. It is becoming more and more of a headache to do so and the temptation is to circumvent any contact with the (non) fee paying public and just do stuff for my own amusement, and for a circle of trusted friends. I dare say that a lot of musicians will just utterly give up in a while. Some will continue, of course. But. Do small, specialist genres such as prog rock have enough spare musicians to be able to lose quite a few due to attrition ? I don't think so.
THEN people say "Where's my T shirt ? Where's my CD ? Where's my live gig ? " - and then complain about the Death of Decent Music. |
Just to say I listened to most of your album after reading about i here. It's good stuff, well recorded and played but not really my thing so I didn't buy it. Having said that, if you're streaming it for free there's not much incentive for people to pay for it. Personally if I like an album enough I will download and pay for it but not everyone will.
Maybe you should consider streaming extracts from the album and charging for the full thing?
Edited by chopper - September 29 2014 at 09:50
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akamaisondufromage
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Posted: September 29 2014 at 09:46 |
I thought punk had already done the job? 
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Help me I'm falling!
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: September 29 2014 at 10:07 |
^It must have been a mass murderer! 
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Posted: September 29 2014 at 10:38 |
Hi Chopper, unfortunately, Bandcamp doesn't give you that option. I've also got the album on MusicZeit which limits the size of the preview - http://www.musiczeit.com/album.php?album=3284&Brotherhood+of+the+Machine+Trip+Hazard - even less downloads there. Although there are a couple from this site. ;-)
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: September 30 2014 at 10:47 |
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
However, too many of us "artistes", do not want to have the patience necessary to deal with an accountant, to learn something simple about business that will get you going fairly well. In America, you CAN do this as a business and take your best shots at it. I don't know that the same "legal/commercial/tax-design" is a satisfactory idea for most people. |
I do know and it isn't. Most people running a business tend to have a good understanding of legal, commercial and tax, there is only one place where people who don't can run a business, and that's into the ground.
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I specifically stated this because I do not know the economic ability of the situations in Europe. I doubt that anyone can have as easy a time "making it", as they can in America. Even my "mom" does some work for a couple of artists, and will not charge for it, but she is very happy putting up the pictures at her place, read my poems, and movie reviews and such, and she helped when I was supporting a local artist as well.
Europe, is tougher and different. My sister, Manuela, who has done over 30 to 40 exhibitions all over Europe of her art, has an easier time with the art over there than she does here. Her 6 months here, meant find a job, and not work the art! Over there she still needs a job, but the art moves some more than here. She does, and this probably came from me 20 years ago, her own accounting and bookkeeping, and she has managed very well all around, except in the area of getting less time working a job and more on the art.
Typical for all of us really!
But, at the very least, over there, at least in Paris, they have more appreciation for a painting (or art) than they do here in America, where a photograph of a tomato is more important for your living room than an art piece!
Dean wrote:
... That is not an example of stolen product.
What you are talking about is called WASTE, this isn't INVISIBLE MONEY, and you are right, it is NOT LOST, it is THROWN AWAY. In all businesses a degree of WASTE is UNAVOIDABLE but EXCESSIVE WASTE is NOT - that's called BAD MANAGEMENT, and in the main it is INEXCUSABLE and BAD BUSINESS.
... |
NO, IT'S NOT BAD MANAGEMENT.
You projected 300 customers, you made this much salad, and then you had a massive storm, that cut the number of customers to 100, and you are hung out to dry, specially in far places, like I was in Pendleton, Oregon, when no one could drive due to the ice or wind storm.
It's a matter of control, and doing the best you can to ensure that you do not have waste. And you are saying that you would not have to do so if you were a musician. I'm not going to dignify that since I am not a full time musician.
It is FAR BETTER management, when you work the ups and downs, as tight as possible so as not to lose your butt on it. And previous managers had lost money for 5 years in that place, and the first year I broke even and made profit the 2nd year ... in a small town of 14k people! It's about your management ... there is no bad or good ... there just is "management" so you can improve it, not waste it!
dean wrote:
... All industries have waste, ...
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Yes daddy ... anything else you want to say about sex, now?
dean wrote:
... Waste in the record industry is pressing more CDs than you sell. In the days of vinyl those returned albums were melted down to make new albums, these days those CDs are either sold off at discounted prices (remainders) or sent to land-fill sites where they will remain buried underground for eternity ...
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Waste is relative.
I like it when you see a record company get lucky and artist X sells 1.5 million, and then on the next year and pressing, they put together 1.5 million of the next single, then they blame "piracy" and whatever else for the lack of sales and the loss of money from the bad decision to make so many units in the first place. A bad decision, becomes the excuse for another idea, to "protect" the music business.
Dean wrote:
... No, not magic, I mean practical punishment. If someone steals from me I want them punished to the full extent of the law. If nailing their head to the table was the legal punishment for stealing then I may have second thoughts, (and then so would they, that being the nature of deterrent), but wishing them bad karma, nah... that doesn't work for me.
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I am a pacifist at heart, and I do not like to be mean, or waste time in negative and bad stuff. You're discussions for me, are good ... it wakes me up and makes me make sure I'm saying the right thing. But, hate for me, is one of the things that makes me lose sleep and rest and prevents me from seeing all the images in my head and write freely. I do not write for anger or because I dislike something. There are plenty of films and music that I do not care for, but I will not take away the right of it being said or stated. I, personally, believe that the time wasted in negativity, instead of the work you want to create, ends up going backwards and not helping.
I believe it dilutes the beauty of your work! And the 20th century was full of too many ugly images to help us all be more optimistic and helpful.
I just don't want to be one of those ugly 20th century images!
Edited by moshkito - September 30 2014 at 11:50
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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altaeria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Status: Offline
Points: 178
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Posted: September 30 2014 at 13:22 |
I still think that all the record companies were duped into licensing their stuff for streaming services.
The hype about "progress", along with the industry's exaggerated fear of piracy,
pushed them into making a dreadful business decision.
Overall, their profits have plummeted since partnering with streaming services.
If they stubbornly continued to embrace selling tangible items (as the Japanese have),
then there would still be profitable stores selling actual products that people will buy.
Sure, a small percentage would pirate-- but it's still better than this so-called "business model" that they're stuck with now.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: September 30 2014 at 13:53 |
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
However, too many of us "artistes", do not want to have the patience necessary to deal with an accountant, to learn something simple about business that will get you going fairly well. In America, you CAN do this as a business and take your best shots at it. I don't know that the same "legal/commercial/tax-design" is a satisfactory idea for most people. |
I do know and it isn't. Most people running a business tend to have a good understanding of legal, commercial and tax, there is only one place where people who don't can run a business, and that's into the ground. |
I specifically stated this because I do not know the economic ability of the situations in Europe. I doubt that anyone can have as easy a time "making it", as they can in America. Even my "mom" does some work for a couple of artists, and will not charge for it, but she is very happy putting up the pictures at her place, read my poems, and movie reviews and such, and she helped when I was supporting a local artist as well. Europe, is tougher and different. My sister, Manuela, who has done over 30 to 40 exhibitions all over Europe of her art, has an easier time with the art over there than she does here. Her 6 months here, meant find a job, and not work the art! Over there she still needs a job, but the art moves some more than here. She does, and this probably came from me 20 years ago, her own accounting and bookkeeping, and she has managed very well all around, except in the area of getting less time working a job and more on the art. Typical for all of us really! But, at the very least, over there, at least in Paris, they have more appreciation for a painting (or art) than they do here in America, where a photograph of a tomato is more important for your living room than an art piece! |
You seem to be contradicting yourself here and I find that incredibly confusing: You say it is tougher in Europe then say your sister has an easier time there (in Europe). Surely it is one or the other. However all of that it wholly irrelevant to any discussion we are having here (no, really it is). Seriously, it does not matter which country you work in, it does make any difference whether it is easy or difficult to be an "artist", it is immaterial whether it is harder to sell art in one location than another. None of that makes a blind bit of difference to how you manage the financial, commercial and legal side. That, more-or-less, is the same everywhere in the world, and it is the same whether you are a musician, a frock designer, a painter, a photographer or a plumber, a carpenter, a butcher, a baker or a candlestick maker. If you sell something (object or skill) you earn money, if you earn money you pay tax. Every business, even the self-employed "artists", has to understand at least the rudimentaries of legal, commercial and tax matters. Here, there and everywhere.
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
... That is not an example of stolen product.What you are talking about is called WASTE, this isn't INVISIBLE MONEY, and you are right, it is NOT LOST, it is THROWN AWAY. In all businesses a degree of WASTE is UNAVOIDABLE but EXCESSIVE WASTE is NOT - that's called BAD MANAGEMENT, and in the main it is INEXCUSABLE and BAD BUSINESS.
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NO, IT'S NOT BAD MANAGEMENT. |
Yes it is, as I shall explain... [or you could read my post again]
moshkito wrote:
You projected 300 customers, you made this much salad, and then you had a massive storm, that cut the number of customers to 100, and you are hung out to dry, specially in far places, like I was in Pendleton, Oregon, when no one could drive due to the ice or wind storm. |
That is not an example of excessive waste. It is not an example of unavoidable waste. If it is unavoidable then it is not bad management. [read my post again] Your example is an exception. Exceptional expenses are classed as either extraordinary expenses or nonrecurring expenses and they are accounted for separately, the example of a loss caused by an ice storm is a nonrecurring expense. If that happened every day, or every week, then it would be a recurring expense and you would have to plan for it and it would be factored into your operating expenses. In other words you would have contingencies and recoveries in place to account for that. You cannot plan for freak weather but you would not, for example, plan 300 salads in a region where ice storms were common place... I don't suppose they sell many Waldorf Salads in Alaska so losing 300 salads to an ice-storm would then be an avoidable waste and it would be bad management. I have no idea what the annual climate is like in Pendleton, Oregon, but since you lost 300 salads because of an ice-storm I'm going to take a punt and guess that kind of weather doesn't happen very often and that winter temperatures seldom, if ever, drops below 32ºF, because even here in the UK where we average daily temperatures also rarely dip below freezing and we get may be a couple of inches of snow a year, salad isn't the most popular menu choice in winter. Unless you are running a restaurant for rabbits and gerbils. All that, however, is irrelevant. You equated these 300 lost salads with the lost revenue from pirated albums. It was a bad analogy. Specifically you equated albums that do not move (sell) with albums that were pirated (stolen) - and they are not the same thing at all. Albums that do not sell are albums that no one wanted. Pirates, being profit making businesses, would not be able to shift those albums either. Pirates make money out of successful artists, they do not make money out of poor-selling artists.
moshkito wrote:
It's a matter of control, and doing the best you can to ensure that you do not have waste. And you are saying that you would not have to do so if you were a musician. I'm not going to dignify that since I am not a full time musician. |
I did not say that. [read my post again]. Misread what I have written by all means, but do not attribute me with statements I did not make.
moshkito wrote:
It is FAR BETTER management, when you work the ups and downs, as tight as possible so as not to lose your butt on it. And previous managers had lost money for 5 years in that place, and the first year I broke even and made profit the 2nd year ... in a small town of 14k people! It's about your management ... there is no bad or good ... there just is "management" so you can improve it, not waste it! |
Good for you.
moshkito wrote:
dean wrote:
... All industries have waste, ...
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Yes daddy ... anything else you want to say about sex, now? |
Cute.
moshkito wrote:
dean wrote:
... Waste in the record industry is pressing more CDs than you sell. In the days of vinyl those returned albums were melted down to make new albums, these days those CDs are either sold off at discounted prices (remainders) or sent to land-fill sites where they will remain buried underground for eternity ...
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Waste is relative. I like it when you see a record company get lucky and artist X sells 1.5 million, and then on the next year and pressing, they put together 1.5 million of the next single, then they blame "piracy" and whatever else for the lack of sales and the loss of money from the bad decision to make so many units in the first place. A bad decision, becomes the excuse for another idea, to "protect" the music business. |
You are guessing, and it's not even smart guessing, it's just making stuff up. Not very well either come to that. If this "example" was in any way representative, which it blatantly is not by the way, then it would not be an example of unavoidable waste. It would be avoidable waste and as I said, that is bad management.
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
... No, not magic, I mean practical punishment. If someone steals from me I want them punished to the full extent of the law. If nailing their head to the table was the legal punishment for stealing then I may have second thoughts, (and then so would they, that being the nature of deterrent), but wishing them bad karma, nah... that doesn't work for me.
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I am a pacifist at heart, and I do not like to be mean, or waste time in negative and bad stuff. You're discussions for me, are good ... it wakes me up and makes me make sure I'm saying the right thing. But, hate for me, is one of the things that makes me lose sleep and rest and prevents me from seeing all the images in my head and write freely. I do not write for anger or because I dislike something. There are plenty of films and music that I do not care for, but I will not take away the right of it being said or stated. I, personally, believe that the time wasted in negativity, instead of the work you want to create, ends up going backwards and not helping. I believe it dilutes the beauty of your work! And the 20th century was full of too many ugly images to help us all be more optimistic and helpful. I just don't want to be one of those ugly 20th century images! |
Wishing bad karma on someone is negativity without the guilt. I try to avoid having ill-feelings towards anyone, for some people making me feel bad for hating them is half the trip for them and I will not give them the satisfaction. I believe that people who do wrong should only be punished once for any wrong doing, the punishment must fit the crime and the wrong-doer must be aware of why they are being punished - if someone steals from me and they are punished by law then the score is settled. Stealing from me then falling foul of some unrelated misfortune does not fit that brief.
I do however love a bit of anger and unfettered aggression, especially when the cause of that anger is something stupid I have done. I am never more angry than when I am angry with myself. Good art can come out of that but not directly, it is cathartic, the release of tension in spew angry words or a thrashy trashy blast of music, then when calm is restored, chuck that in the bin and start again. Liberation. Clear out the garbage.
My favourite button when posting here, believe it or not, it is the [Clear Form] button. Posting when pissed-off is like posting when pissed-drunk - it seems like a good idea at the time but never is. I've seen the painting I paint when I'm drunk, read the stories I've written while pickled and heard the music I make when inebriated - it's never good. 
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Online
Points: 14719
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Posted: September 30 2014 at 22:05 |
Piracy won't kill off prog but maybe nanoparticles and genetically modified salmon will 
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 30 2014 at 23:13 |
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If music it is popular it can be monetized and sold. Prog is really not popular. Fringe, even. There was a "physical release" bubble from the 40s-90s that made it possible to generate a whole lot of money from physical copies of music. Entirely unlike any enjoyment of music in thousands of years. We've moved past that into something entirely new. Through royalties and licensing artists can still make money, but those heady days of making insane cash for pressing and promoting a record seem to be long gone. Piracy helped, but with computers and the internet this was inevitable. And it can't be undone, even if it would be a good idea to do so. Time to strike out into the new way of doing things.
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Will piracy kill off prog rock ?
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