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TODDLER

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Posted: November 25 2014 at 18:24

Toaster Mantis wrote:

Maybe the idea that music has to be relevant in a rather narrow sense, not sure exactly where it comes from though, is to blame for a lot of these music generation gaps. The ideal would be to have a certain interest in the lineages of influence going through music all the way up to today, to the point that "modern" and "old" styles can be seen as part of the same continuum and the generation gaps would appear a lot smoother.

Of course, that is different in practice where it might be difficult to have time and ressources enough to accumulate that kind of working knowledge about music over time, to the point that a lot of people might not have the necessary experience for that kind of perspective until later in age. Especially not if you also want to keep up tabs with new music. Usually it's people in their 30s and 40s, going by those I've actually met and conversed with, who are able to listen to music from that kind of historical consciousness.

Interesting examples/viewpoints!

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Posted: November 25 2014 at 18:26

moshkito wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

My observation of the youths interest in music today depresses me. I don't know why I feel this way and I'm not sure, but I could be missing good points about their progression..but sometimes I wonder if it's based on any kind of healthy motivated progression at all. I no longer teach theory and guitar instruction, but when I did from 2005 to 2011, I immediately picked up on an attitude existing within all the young students and it basically displayed all of the same characteristics. This is about the "so called" "Generation Gap", but for me...it is a psycho-analysis of what develops through a modern culture...whether it be music, sports, or politics, it makes little difference...and I constantly observe the behavior and programmed attitudes because they are quite different from the ones I grew up with in the 70's.
...

This is normal. Every year this happens in every school, and even here at work.

My neighbor got turned on by a lot of the music I had, and it was accidental ... I was always playing something else when he came over to play a little WoW! .... what's that you're playing? ... and it went from there.

I think, that a lot of it, is how we present it. We have a bad habit, myself included sometimes and I have to catch myself, of saying that something is wrong with music. It isn't. We can say detailed mechanical things about it ... like rap and such is based, way too much on the metronome, and not a whole lot of music was for many years ... although all the baroque and music up to Mozart, seems to be very strict in its detail on the metronomic side of things!

That stuff, is ... nothing ... for anyone that does not know music history, and only likes a few songs and a "style", however idiotic we might think that style is. I laugh at styles that are based on sound effects, like a pedal ... to make it sound heavy ... or evil, or masturbatory! Those are all "arbitrary" notations, and rarely have anything to do with the music itself. Another example, might be that Carmina Burana is evil ... for those church loving minions, and a hymn for teh rest of us heathens in the world. The same piece of music, all of a sudden has two desctiptions? Where does it fit? 500 years ago, orff would be burned at the stake!

TODDLER wrote:

...
One of the prime existing patterns of people everywhere today..is having an attitude and being dismissive of any Classical composer, Rock guitarist, who was born years before them and created something innovative. I had over 50 students, taught at many music stores and preparing students for music recitals...and during this time they were so impatient,
...

Please, forgive them for they know not what they do!

We did the same thing. I was OK with Ray charles, Gilbert Becaud, Edith Piaf, Roberto Carlos, and people were calling me square. I just laughed ... history, and knowledge ... is something that is learned out of an education. So folks ignoring it, means they are disrespecting their own living and parentage. You just have to give them a newer and more important perspective, because they do not know of any, or what it means.

But you have to learn to also respect their own music! Without that, you will be thinking you are better than them and the subtext of your feeling will kill the communication and the sharing of the learning!

TODDLER wrote:

...
We were approached by staff members and several people unknown to me. We were told this: "What were you playing up there?" "I'm sorry , but we really don't play that kind of music at our recitals" Everything had been cleared by the store owner, parents, and anyone with authority...yet an abundance of people back stage were informing us of this and practically insulting the crap out of us. My students were deeply hurt.
...

This should have been written and taken to a newspaper or two for consideration. It would have gotten a few people removed from these groups that "run" a school with their quasi-hyppocritical-religious education and complete lack of dedication to the history of education all over and for many years. These are the same folks removing blacks and indians from the American history books!

Just stay positive. You needed to become "famous" with/for your music, on that day, your kids would all come back and listen to you, and all those ugly teachers would die off in their slumber of deep ignorance. This way, you would be remembered and they would be forgotten and there is no better "revenge' than an art form surviving and being alive ... while folks that did not believe in the arts fell away with their empty lives quoting a badly translated book!

You should not have felt sorry for yourself. I would have screamed ... you just disrespected everyone of these kids. Are you happy? And hopefully the audience heard you so it would create a nice scandal ... that would help them lose faster!

You can NOT vbe afraid of your art, and this is what you have to teach ... notes and chords are easy ... respecting and loving your art and your work, and yourself ... is way more important than kissing ash of some of those folks!

Very supportive worthwhile advice! Thank you for responding and I appreciate your insight.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 03:46

TODDLER wrote:

Interesting examples/viewpoints!

I'm reminded of Jim Derogatis' motive for writing his book Turn on Your Mind about the history of psychedelic rock, to demonstrate how psych-rock wasn't just a 1960s/1970s thing but you can trace direct lineages from that era to the more experimental ends of modern electronic music be it drone ambient or psytrance, the spacier corners of 1980s indie rock and so on from if you look at it. Of course, his definition of psychedelic rock as more an ethos than a style leads him into some strange omissions. (for example The Doors are excluded from the book on the basis of ideologically having less in common with contemporary 1960s psych bands than with the 1980s goth scene... but The Velvet Underground aren't?!)

I also sometimes correspond over Facebook with Peter Beliath, a Danish metal reviewer who likewise sees an unbroken lineage from the heavy bands of the late 1960s to the more extreme metal styles of today - rather than any generation gaps in the actual music. However, I think he's only really developed that kind of view because he's been a fan of the genre since 1974 and been reviewing since 1982. Even then he's more openminded about new music than many other older metalheads I've encountered. (here's his blog, for those here who read Danish)

The late GG Allin also viewed punk the same way as going all the way back to 1950s rock'n'roll and related styles, which is why his discography covers lot of country/rockabilly songs along with 1980s hardcore punk and noise rock. Though it's only the latter he's remembered for by the general public because of his entire "raving madman rolling around in his own feces" image, but even that's part of that ideology because he wanted to make modern rock music as scary and shocking as it was back in the 1950s.

Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 27 2014 at 03:36

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

TODDLER

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 08:58

Toaster Mantis wrote:

TODDLER wrote:

Interesting examples/viewpoints!

I'm reminded of Jim Derogatis' motive for writing his book Turn on Your Mind about the history of psychedelic rock, to demonstrate how psych-rock wasn't just a 1960s/1970s thing but you can trace direct lineages from that era to the more experimental ends of modern electronic music be it drone ambient or psytrance, the spacier corners of 1980s indie rock and so on from if you look at it. Of course, his definition of psychedelic rock as more an ethos than a style leads him into some strange omissions. (for example The Doors are excluded from the book on the basis of ideologically having less in common with contemporary 1960s psych bands than with the 1980s goth scene... but The Velvet Underground aren't?!)

I also sometimes correspond over Facebook with Peter Beliath, a Danish metal fanzine who likewise sees an unbroken lineage from the heavy bands of the late 1960s to the more extreme metal styles of today - rather than any generation gaps in the actual music. However, I think he's only really developed that kind of view because he's been a fan of the genre since 1974 and been reviewing since 1982. Even then he's more openminded about new music than many other older metalheads I've encountered. (here's his blog, for those here who read Danish)

The late GG Allin also viewed punk the same way as going all the way back to 1950s rock'n'roll and related styles, which is why his discography covers lot of country/rockabilly songs along with 1980s hardcore punk and noise rock. Though it's only the latter he's remembered for by the general public because of his entire "raving madman rolling around in his own feces" image, but even that's part of that ideology because he wanted to make modern rock music as scary and shocking as it was back in the 1950s.

I feel the same way about Punk, but I dislike the way music in general is formed today and I don't know if it can be attributed to the existence of Punk itself or how the Alternative Rock was a more of an adaption of Punk in the modern 90's..where the style somewhat made itself present along with combining a 60's guitar sound. My mother (RIP), was born in West Virginia and her side of the family schooled me in playing the dulcimer. All I was interested in was playing the dulcimer like Brian Jones did and was not prepared for what was in store for me next regarding Folk and Country...however that particular side to things made it a whole lot easier to adapt some of the Country/Jazz flavored licks coming out of Steve Howe in 72.

My uncles from West Virginia who traveled in Bluegrass outfits had a low tone kind of vocal style. When I first heard Alternative Rock, I made the distinction immediately that songs like "Daughter', (don't call me daughter), by Pearl Jam was very close to the vocal style in that band. People in general thought I was insane to make the connection at the time. It didn't exist so much in the music of Alice In Chains, but the "hillbilly" vocal sound in Folk and Country prevailed in many other Alternative bands . After an entire decade of Alternative Rock, I walked into Tower Records and heard a recording by Johnny Cash covering Alternative Rock songs. It was then that I realized other people were dead wrong to believe that my observation was a few sandwiches short of a picnic. The vocal style of Johnny Cash was directly 100 percent present in the Alternative Rock world.

In the 70's, Robin Trower being the first Hendrix imitator influenced thousands of kids to buy Bridge Of Sighs and work feverishly to play guitar like that. Most kids then, decided that it would be wise to re-examine the works of Jimi Hendrix while learning Robin Trower and Frank Marino. Many of them went to the direct source to gather understanding of that style of playing. In the 90's, Pearl Jam recorde a song titled "Even Flow". The vocals were deep sounding and related more to a Country style. Their guitar solos in the song were not as melodic or technical as a Trower, Marino, or a Hendrix. They were actually a bit amatuer sounding to me. They were sloppy solos and lacked all that I had heard before when guitarists were a little more serious about sounding professional. That is precisely what I dislike about today's music. There isn't too much guitar playing in modern Rock or mainstream music anymore ..as if people chose for it to die. On the other hand, it could be that what I'm hearing is a lack of professionalism in playing derived from the mentality that existed in the early years of Punk Rock and that it developed into the society of musicians and as a result was greeted with open arms by a new generation.

In point....the idea to play a decent Rock guitar solo like Jeff Beck or write a decent Rock song like Humble Pie or Spooky Tooth was gone forever. Of course a musician wouldn't want to write a song like those particular bands, but it WAS possible to make it more modern without throwing those great ideas by the wayside. That is why I am disappointed. Even commercial ballads by teeny bop vocalists today do not have a variation on chord structures like they did in the 70's. I'm not pointing out that music should be written like it was in the 70's, NO! I'm saying that by identifying and relating any musical elements of a more complex and melodic nature as something that derives from the 70's and having the all mighty will to completely dismiss it as a formula..is the wrong path for me to follow. That's an extremist's attitude and no need to exist like it does today when music is simply music!

Edited by TODDLER - November 26 2014 at 11:17

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:15

moshkito wrote:

This is normal. Every year this happens in every school, and even here at work.

Please, forgive them for they know not what they do!

I agree with most of your viewpoints, but I don't agree with your statement about this mentality being normal today..when mainstream music has decreased in it's diversity to be honestly different. Mainstream commercial Pop music used to be interesting to play. Roberta Flack and Chi Coltrane...or the great Laura Nyro wrote Pop songs that NOT just any musician off the street ..who had knowledge of 10 chords could easily play. That's the overall difference today and it's a bit disgraceful to any musician who desires for music to be involved in some way. It doesn't matter if the melody was Pop sugar , at least to play the songs required more knowledge than a "chord banger" would have today. It's really sad to think we've went down hill like that. There's not enough artists around who are willing to change that mentality in the music business. All the Billy Joel's, Elton John's, 10CC'S and Stevie Wonder's of the world are getting old and are being replaced by commercial artist who put together the most ridiculous and annoying basic chord structures for Pop songs. I would be running for the Billy Joel Pop song that took MORE practice for a band to perform today and feel like the disrespect many had for his commercial music in the 70's and 80's is something light years ahead and away from what is constructed within the composition of a modern Pop song.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:18

I think it's wise to put certain things in perspective Todd. When Rock & Roll first appeared it was seen by purists as a watered down variation of blues and R&B and then became worse when white bread acts like Bobby Vinton Frankie Avalon, The Every Brothers, etc. took over the controls. Disgusting. But it did influence and spawn the Beatles and look how they changed the musical landscape. Forever.

Just because current pop is in malaise doesn't mean that something better cannot grow out of it at any time.

It only requires that one catalyst.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:39

I think there could be a new S Wonder or a new Billy Joel in a manner of speaking even today. It is up to us listeners to find out about them and spread the word. Fiona Apple's Idler Wheel came out only a couple of years back and it was full of unpredictable choices while still based on pop structure. And the songs simply boiled over with the kind of anger that probably would not have been accepted of a mainstream non rock artist in the 60s. Everything Everything, a young British band, have made two albums that are very accessible and yet musically very interesting and definitely going beyond just basic chords. I find their vocals horrendous but I do know I would much rather have the work of both Fiona Apple as well as Everything Everything over Billy Joel. S Wonder is a different ballgame now but consider also how spartan and low key the production of Idler Wheel was...vis a vis the seemingly endless sessions musicians roster of Songs in the Key of Life.

I don't even try very hard. I've got plenty of priorities to balance and rummaging the musical minefield forever for hidden diamonds is not one of them. I have still managed to come across at least a couple of albums every year that hooked me so much that I spent days just listening to them on a loop. That is, I have had more than my fill. The question is why don't people share very much about their musical preferences and their new 'discoveries', except on websites like this. Why have people become so uptight and so possessive about their opinions on music that they don't even talk about it? Surely the only way to spread the word about a good artist is to have a conversation and why should it be such a big deal, so objectionable if one person thinks an artist he liked is good? It's absolutely fine and even if it isn't, emotions are more important in life than pedantic considerations of how something should or shouldn't be said, I reckon.

Edited by rogerthat - November 26 2014 at 09:46

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:39

SteveG wrote:

I think it's wise to put certain things in perspective Todd. When Rock & Roll first appeared it was seen by purists as a watered down variation of blues and R&B and then became worse when white bread acts like Bobby Vinton Frankie Avalon, The Every Brothers, etc. took over the controls. Disgusting. But it did influence and spawn the Beatles and look how they changed the musical landscape. Forever.

Just because current pop is in malaise doesn't mean that something better cannot grow out of it at any time.

It only requires that one catalyst.

Well, that is a very positive way of looking at things. I appreciate your inspiration! I've obviously been spoiled by music from the past. When Progressive Rock was huge for a few years in the 70's, mainstream Pop music was more difficult to play. The original idea ..then, was to write a simplistic ballad or R&B dance tune that would be a number 1 hit and mask that complexity of the 14 or 15 chords in the song with that melody. It took more skill to play almost anything in the 70's except for Disco and when that concept went out the door...I became frustrated. Songs like "I Kissed A Girl" by Katy Perry , "Ain't It Fun", "Keep On Dancing", and a host of others do not compare in the least bit to precisely what went into commercial Pop song structure in the 70's. Why would that be? Why would music have to take a turn that would dismiss a more interesting way of writing?

It's probably because of what has existed musically with the norm over the last 3 decades. Even in the 80's...(believe it or not), Huey Lewis and the News had more interesting enjoyable song structure than anything you could shake a stick at today. U2, and The Pretenders had more going for them musically than what is relevant today. Why would that be? Rock N' Roll of the 50's was quite different because it didn't leave out solos and it didn't make a mess of the music. What do we have in the mainstream today to compare with that? I'm not being negative...I'm saying to please change it! Let's get back to our roots and stop this ridiculous notion to be different than everyone else. It's not going anywhere! Something is very wrong here! We can still move forward in a different way. We don't have to sacrifice our talent and creative balance to produce decent Pop music. Where on earth did this idea originate?

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:48

rogerthat wrote:

I think there could be a new S Wonder or a new Billy Joel in a manner of speaking even today. It is up to us listeners to find out about them and spread the word. Fiona Apple's Idler Wheel came out only a couple of years back and it was full of unpredictable choices while still based on pop structure. And the songs simply boiled over with the kind of anger that probably would not have been accepted of a mainstream non rock artist in the 60s. Everything Everything, a young British band, have made two albums that were very accessible and yet musically very interesting and definitely going beyond just basic chords. I find their vocals horrendous but I do know I would much rather have the work of both Fiona Apple as well as Everything Everything over Billy Joel. S Wonder is a different ballgame now but consider also how spartan and low key the production of Idler Wheel was...vis a vis the seemingly endless sessions musicians roster of Songs in the Key of Life.

I don't even try very hard. I've got plenty of priorities to balance and rummaging the musical minefield forever for diamonds is not one of them. I have still managed to come across at least a couple of albums every year that hooked me so much that I spent days just listening to them on a loop. That is, I have had more than my fill. The question is why don't people share very much about their musical preferences and their new 'discoveries', except on websites like this. Why have people become so uptight and so possessive about their opinions on music that they don't even talk about it? Surely the only way to spread the word about a good artist is to have a conversation and why should it be such a big deal, so objectionable if one person thinks an artist he liked is good? It's absolutely fine and even if it isn't, emotions are more important than pedantic considerations of how something should or shouldn't be said, I reckon.

I love Fiona Apple , but there simply isn't enough artists like her today! I love POE! I think she's an outstanding writer. I loved Paula Cole and especially her song "Mississippi" performed live at Lilith Fair. I loved Sara McLachlan. She could write a song with diversity from within. A song titled "Stupied' was a brilliant idea musically and vocally. These particular artists are hardly mentioned by the crowds I play for. Most people either forget WHO they are and if they do remember them, it's written down in their BIBLE somewhere that they were from the 90's and that their meaning has no value with what's relevant in music today. That's a scene I'd like to change.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:49

^Fiona Apple=

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:56

TODDLER wrote:

Just because current pop is in malaise doesn't mean that something better cannot grow out of it at any time.

It only requires that one catalyst.

Glad you got a lift from it Todd.

For me personally, I've been spoiled with some of the recent works by Steve Earle, Mark Knopfler, Guy Clark and Ry Cooder, as I'm a very roots music based person at heart. So, I also have the incredible back up of Bill Monroe, The Del McCoury band, Towns Van Zandt and many others.

Edited by SteveG - November 26 2014 at 09:58

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:57

I notice that the band HEART in recent years have written outstanding melodic songs. On FANATIC there is a song titled "Pennsylvania' which really hits home...(more or less), with it's subtle ambient approach and melody. On Jupiter's Darling and Fanatic the band has a Seattle Alternative influence, but they put something more into it by just being themselves. Their crafty songwriting is extremely fitting to a modern style of mainstream music ...whether it be classified as Rock or Alternative. There simply isn't enough artists around to produce this kind of music.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 09:57

TODDLER wrote:

Well, there's Joanna Newsom if people do want something with a noughties-onwards release date on it, but I don't know that many people are going to find her work penetrable, much less catchy. And maybe the trick is to just tell them to listen to this awesome album called Idler Wheel (or Extraordinary Machine) without telling them the artist is somebody who started out in the 90s. Wink

I think Muse were pretty interesting too until they began to kind of dilute their sound from Black Holes...onwards. But hey, we've seen that sort of thing happen to so many artists and even Wonder wasn't immune to it.

I recognise this mindset and it's a difficult one to defeat. I for one am hardly bothered as to what was the supposed heyday of the artist as long as whatever he's released lately is still good. Ilayaraja was making glorious soundtracks in the 80s. He works for far fewer films now but still serves up more than an odd glimpse of his genius and I could hardly be bothered about how old he is now as long as the music doesn't feel old, as in uninspired or pedestrian.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 10:01

TODDLER wrote:

I notice that the band HEART in recent years have written outstanding melodic songs. On FANATIC there is a song titled "Pennsylvania' which really hits home...(more or less), with it's subtle ambient approach and melody. On Jupiter's Darling and Fanatic the band has a Seattle Alternative influence, but they put something more into it by just being themselves. Their crafty songwriting is extremely fitting to a modern style of mainstream music ...whether it be classified as Rock or Alternative. There simply isn't enough artists around to produce this kind of music.

We have managed to throw a few names around between the two of us in a short time. That means there are still possibilities and there's still great music waiting to be heard. The more troubling question is if music has somewhere become a less significant aspect of our lives than it used to be and if that is indeed the case, there's probably very little that can be done about it. In such times, obviously music that's less demanding is more attractive to a large audience of people who just want to listen to something while on the go or maybe post lunch at work. Wink

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 10:05

i'm going to speak in generalities here - but I find that the 'youth culture' today is at it's worst - as a result of technology.

The internet, smartphones, tablets, etc ... in theory should have enabled people to discover and share and renew the good musical work of the past but instead it seemed to create this disposable culture. everything has to be instantaneous... quick and dirty. Obtained and consumed within seconds.

I hate to throw ADHD around - but that's what it looks like on a huge scale. the only thing kids seem to spend any time doing is gaming (even though they're sitting on their butts, their eyes and hands are hyperactive) and texting.

Texting and social media have changed the way people communicate .. related, but a different subject.

I do see a direct impact on music. there's no respect for it anymore. people don't even want to own it. just download it and stockpile it or throw it away. All they want is that instant hit ... the quick hook... and then onto something else.

that ultra commercial music has always been there, but there was a good percentage of more substantial music around at the same time.

And it was still possible to make a living with progressive music. People bought albums and went to concerts.

now there cant be a hell of a lot of money in it because there isn't much interest. lets face it - not talking about the die hards here - but most people with the disposable income to pay for things other than feeding a family and paying a mortgage - is kids.

Music isn't alone - the film industry is suffering as well for the same reasons.

I don't want to blame bootlegging on anything... sure people download everything, but the theatres are still full .. but they're full of kids. And for the most part right now - kids aren't interested in substance.

I know i'm missing a million points and something like this is better discussed in person over a few beverages .. but it's pretty damn obvious ...the popular (related) technology of today has changed that part of our culture for the worse. I hope some day it bounces back...

Edited by Walton Street - November 26 2014 at 10:06

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 10:26

rogerthat wrote:

Exactly! You are one hundred percent correct! Truly you are and I believe by changing the music scene , one must first change how they teach music/instruction to students of the new generation. Instead of constantly "giving the people what they want", (which isn't always what they would want if they were exposed more to creating a musical balance), then we could change the world and it's way of thinking. That's my job as a music teacher and I am alone...or possibly in a small boat drifting on the water with Paul McCartney writing his symphonies LOL

. I focus more on giving the student the option of thinking for themselves, but!, that is based on knowledge as well and just how to develop that knowledge into the mastering of a musical instrument. After studying music theory, it is important to sarcastically throw away the music, (so to speak), and play the piece with a few embellishments of your own. Your own reflections of what does not yet exist. Taking that fear away from students and giving them the opportunity to think for themselves is optional and merely a process for some teachers, but for me it means that if more people thought that way again, more artists like Fiona Apple would exist.

Education....eventually at some point down the road...is to think for yourself! You can read about Plato and memorize the history on Plato, but what do you think? People are sometimes scared to employ that in their minds. If more people in society don't discover that strength, music will remain as it is. The best end result in music composition and improvisation is to eventually think for yourself and constantly remain open to a new method or way of doing something and definitely NOT to follow rules and obey every step of a music master. You have a mind of your own and to take on an influence of someone else to that extreme degree is defeating in so many ways that I cannot even begin to describe.

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 10:35

Walton Street wrote:

i'm going to speak in generalities here - but I find that the 'youth culture' today is at it's worst - as a result of technology.

This is precisely what I experience with the modern student in music. They are totally impatient with growth in music. They can't seem to wait for it and they practically refuse to work and practice long hours to obtain it. That's ridiculous!

Whenever my kids listen to The Beatles, they begin to realize something else about life and they suddenly change this attitude you've mentioned. Why would that be? You see? there is something very wrong about this.

Texting and social media have changed the way people communicate .. related, but a different subject.

In general...they have developed a short attention span for art

that ultra commercial music has always been there, but there was a good percentage of more substantial music around at the same time.

And it was still possible to make a living with progressive music. People bought albums and went to concerts.

Music isn't alone - the film industry is suffering as well for the same reasons.

I agree with all of the above. Thanks for posting this! This is true knowledge

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Posted: November 26 2014 at 10:47

A theory exists that "Too Many Teardrops" by Question Mark and the Mysterians was the first song ever written that arrived close to being Punk. When I hired their bassist to go on the road with me, he stated that Question Mark was a very different type of artist/individual. I know that the song is corny to people beyond belief, however maybe he WAS just thinking for himself with his strange stage presence/image and overall different approach in obtaining a hit single. Not enough people are willing to go that distance today for reasons mentioned above. After all, it's perfectly explained as to why there was a huge extreme difference between the sound of ELP, Genesis, King Crimson ,Yes and Jethro Tull. How is it that they all sounded different from each other?

This has been evident on the underground Prog scene for many years when comparing the difference in sound/style between Popol Vuh, Ash Ra Temple, Can, and Gong. The same can apply to Univers Zero and Art Zoyd. Both are in the "Chamber" vain, but are very different from each other in MANY ways. Artists like this apparently have minds of their own and are latched on to something unknown to the majority of the music world in that sense. They know (and maybe unintentionally), how to go about creating music that is different and original to boot...because they use their knowledge differently than many others.

Edited by TODDLER - November 26 2014 at 10:54

Toaster Mantis View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898

Posted: November 27 2014 at 04:58

TODDLER wrote:

Well, that is a very positive way of looking at things. I appreciate your inspiration! I've obviously been spoiled by music from the past. When Progressive Rock was huge for a few years in the 70's, mainstream Pop music was more difficult to play. The original idea ..then, was to write a simplistic ballad or R&B dance tune that would be a number 1 hit and mask that complexity of the 14 or 15 chords in the song with that melody. It took more skill to play almost anything in the 70's except for Disco and when that concept went out the door...I became frustrated. Songs like "I Kissed A Girl" by Katy Perry , "Ain't It Fun", "Keep On Dancing", and a host of others do not compare in the least bit to precisely what went into commercial Pop song structure in the 70's. Why would that be? Why would music have to take a turn that would dismiss a more interesting way of writing?

A lot of 1970s disco was actually quite innovative in terms of production technology and use of electronic instrumentation, specifically thinking about Giorgio Moroder's work as a producer and those influenced by him to adapt the innovations of Kraftwerk and David Bowie's collaborations with Brian Eno in a more funk/R&B/soul-derived idiom. (not to mention the entire Italo-Disco scene that followed him)

This had the side-effect of popularizing the electronically based approach to music for a larger pop audience, and might have helped inspire quite a bit of modern electronic music. For better or for worse, this marks where production becomes more important than instrumental performance in terms of what makes the music but after getting into electronic music I've come to appreciate there's a lot of wizardry in exploring music production possibilities. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't care that much for a lot of modern pop music.

Exactly where this fits into the well-documented decline of rock music as a cultural force after the 1980s and early 1990s, I'm not so sure about and my thoughts on the subject are too disorganized to post right now.

"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook