Does democracy work? Or... |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 13:26 | |
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
Pretty much the perfect summation of everything that can be said. Edited by JJLehto - June 25 2016 at 13:28 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 13:28 | |
As for all the education stuff, yeah...look I am disturbed by the things I see and hear as much as anyone but I'm also disturbed at the (this is never said, maybe not even realized) support of what would basically be an aristocracy...especially sincere there are (believe it or not) educated, smart people that back Trump, or Ben Carson, Ted Cruz. Educated very smart people become our government, our business leaders, the top economists that get everything wrong and have gutted our middle class.
Educated people, scientists etc etc are not immune to...corruption, or bias, or closed mindedness. What Roger said, it's inherently a very elitists and undemocratic notion (guess that's the point) I am very upset/angry that so many people voted against what is their economic self interest in the Democratic primary because they just never bothered to look into Bernie Sanders/felt he was "unelectable" which is dumb, or simply didn't know him but knew Clinton. But does that mean I lament them? No, this is democracy. It's all our jobs to work at helping our side win. Besides, lots of smart, educated people didn't really think about the issues but simply went based on gut or surface level/other reasons, often discussions of Clinton/Sanders got quite petty and silly so yeah...sorry I don't see education as being some perfect guide to society. Seriously, the absolute best people from our top universities go on to make the economic decisions and etc that have basically wrecked our country, that say "Everything is looking A OK" "Housing market is doing swell" 6 months before it all crashes. Ted Cruz was a successful and highly regarded lawyer, Ben Carson a successful doctor. I could go on and on, there's no reason an educated aristocracy would even be realistically better than democracy.
Edited by JJLehto - June 25 2016 at 13:44 |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12655 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 15:31 | |
I'm having a difficult time thinking of a better political system than a democracy. Communism inevitably has led to totalitarianism in nearly every government that propounded Marxism. Monarchism is flawed and is as only as good as the next inbred who takes the throne. Fascism worked out grandly (except for Mussolini strung up in front of a gas station in Milan). Religious states? I'm not sure being beheaded for drinking a beer is good politics. I dunno...any suggestions?
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34050 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 17:08 | |
this reminds me of a Toqueville question or argument
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A Person
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 18:51 | |
What interests me is the debate between different forms of democracy. Direct/participatory vs representative democracy for example.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64332 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 21:06 | |
Except that later in life Carlin was such a bitter, warped and misled guy that little he says has much credibility. He'd given up on humanity and in the process lost his own. He's to be pitied, not listened to. Edited by Atavachron - June 25 2016 at 21:07 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19597 |
Posted: June 26 2016 at 01:53 | |
please expand on this... Coz, I'm far from agreeing with all of the theories of this "philosopher" or his methods of achieving his conclusions |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 10:20 | |
The PA isn't a democracy and doesn't pretend to be either. ... oh yeah ... |
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What?
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A Person
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 10:54 | |
What do people think of this quote?
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: October 22 2005 Location: elsewhere Status: Offline Points: 67381 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 11:01 | |
it seems to imply that socialism is inherently flawed :(
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: @ wicker man Status: Offline Points: 32569 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 11:49 | |
I agree with Rosa Luxemburg (particularly on a state level). It's truer all-around of a system with direct democracy than representative democracy.
Edited by Logan - June 30 2016 at 11:50 |
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Modrigue
Prog Reviewer Joined: January 14 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1125 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 12:00 | |
Before, we must define what socialism truly is. French socialism is quite different from Cuban socialism which is quite different from American socialism (if such a thing really exist...) for example. I think each country and period, or even maybe each person, has his own definition of Socialism. In France, the 1920 socialism imagined by Jaures (and even maybe by Rosa Luxembourg) is not really the same than François Hollande's 2012 socialism, whose own party is strongly divided and whose politics don't differ significantly from right-wing. I don't know if Tony Blair is considered as a socialist, but Frenchs consider him as an ultra-liberal. Edited by Modrigue - June 30 2016 at 12:07 |
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 26 2014 Location: Milky Way Status: Offline Points: 1327 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 12:28 | |
Any form of government will work, Democracy, Republic,
Monarchy, Socialism, Dictatorship, Cast System etc. However, it must be of a moral populace, otherwise the entire
system is in jeopardy. |
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20161 |
Posted: June 30 2016 at 13:06 | |
That's pretty much my position. You have the ill informed voting for a limited population of choices selected by the elite overlords. Any alternatives always put more power in the hands of the elite whether they are Capitalist, Communist or whatever. You have to live with the intrinsic flaws. Choosing the lesser of two evils is never ideal but letting the two evils work out what enriches them both most is even worse. You eventually get the the point where revolution is the only option and even if that is effective you eventually end up with just a different set of elitist dictators.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: July 01 2016 at 04:23 | |
The only person who I'm aware of who thinks Blair is a socialist is columnist Peter Hitchens, but he thinks the conservative party in the UK is far left. He is essentially to the right of Hitler, so his take on things is not really valid IMO. Socialism and capitalism are whatever you want them to be. Democracy certainly is. China and North Korea prove that. Democratic in name crushingly dictatorial in nature. Political labels are essentially meaningless, especially nowadays. There is good government and there is bad government, and sometimes good government has to implement socialist leaning policies and sometimes conservative leaning policies. Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done regardless of who gets upset about it. Any nation that is sworn unconditionally to any one ideology will eventually fail IMO. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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A Person
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 10 2008 Location: __ Status: Offline Points: 65760 |
Posted: July 01 2016 at 16:20 | |
I agree, I think starting from a primarily democratic system (beginning with places of work, which currently are completely undemocratic) would help build a basis for more authentic forms of democracy at larger levels. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 02 2016 at 04:52 | |
I'd be curious to know how you'd think a democratic workplace or business could operate Matt. At present closest to democratic business are co-operatives, partnerships and employee-owned businesses (EOBs) where the employees (and/or customers) share ownership of the business but maintain a hierarchy of management to actually run it (rather than managing by a constant democratic process). The difference is the accountability of these managers (who are skilled and trained in the function of running a company) is top-down rather than bottom-up. Since canvasing each employee for every decision made is impractical, democracy in these cases is often by elected committees, councils and boards at various levels and locations (which is of course representative democracy).
Edited by Dean - July 02 2016 at 04:54 |
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What?
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The T
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: July 05 2016 at 13:48 | |
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