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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 03:13
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Let's see
West and East
North and South
Rich and Poor
Old and Young
White and Non white
Male and Female
Straight and Gay
Religious and Not Religious
and on and on and off
I was thinking the exact same thing as I read these posts. The universe is all about balance, Left / Right, Up / Down, Forwards,/ Backwards. The question is, "What direction do you think you should be going?" Now, I'm Canadian, so mine is an outsiders view in a way. But I've been working on and off south of the border for a few years now. From Michigan to Ohio, from Missouri to Kentucky, which has given me a small insight to your regional political views. In a small way our last election mirrored your election this year. Two very different points of view, even though we have a fairly well supported third party. In the end we Canadians had to decide what kind of country we believed we were. A Progressive Conservative one under a leader that wanted to ban religious dressings and implement a Barbaric Culture Hotline, or a Liberal one that wanted to provide Equal and Fair opportunity and respect to ALL who live or choose to live in our great nation. We overwhelmingly choose the latter and I believe we became more respected on the world stage for it. That doesn't mean I think the Liberal party is flawless or that the Conservatives are evil (although Harper came pretty close), but I believe we made it clear what we expect the world to think of when they think of Canadians. The US has the same basic choice to make. Yes, there are always going to be issues that no one believes the politicians are working on, or happy with the results of their decisions, but at the end of the day, the leader of our countries are supposed to represent and demonstrate what it means to be of our nationalities. I think the most recent debate and the response from both sides of the fence has spoken clearly, now it's up to you, the voters. Will you be a single issue voter, or will you vote for the choice that most represents what it means to be an American (or as we hear it Merican)? Good luck on Nov. 8th. The world will be watching.
I agree.
 
As another outsider who visits American infrequently and then only for a few weeks at a time I can only comment from the perspective of an observer but I have to say that I was initially shocked by the ferocious social divides that are plainly visible even on the shortest journeys between one location and another. Call that culture shock if you like because I was certainly unprepared for what I saw based upon the mental picture I had formed of the USA from watching films, TV dramas and sitcoms - of course I knew those social divides existed, (as they do everywhere), but the magnitude and breadth took me by surprise. While these are evident in every European country I have visited including my own, the gulf between social strata appears to be far wider and more polarised in the USA than anywhere else. The polarities that Steven has listed are common to all societies and nations, and none of them are mutually exclusive, yet all of them are exacerbated by the polarity of politics and the politics of social responsibility; he is correct - you can bisect any country along whatever axis you care to chose, but the difference seems to be that each half is more associated with one political party than another which forces them apart rather than drawing them together. 

Are there two Americas? Yes, there are lots of them and they're all related.


Edited by Dean - October 22 2016 at 03:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 11:35
Interesting, Dean.  Can you give more specifics as to how you see these differences?  Is it hearing people talk, observing particular behaviors, or what?  I ask simply because I don't see these differences "in real life".  I see them only on tv, newspapers, internet etc.  At work I observe no discussion of politics and the like.  I could not tell you for the most part who has what opinions (except for some small support for Cthulhu for president Big smile).  Of course I am a "non-social" person so it very well could be these conversations are indeed happening outside my range of observation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 12:52
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

As I live in Europe, this is a question to all of you living in the USA.

As a lot of other people, I have been watching the presidential election campaigns with a mixture of amusement and horror.

 Nothing seems to be able to derail Donald Trump’s campaign. He gets his legs shot off (well, he shoots his own legs off, mostly), and still he keeps on coming.

 He’s lost a bit of momentum, of course, but nothing seems irremediably lost for him yet. Everyone’s talking about his unshakable base of dissatisfied misfits and rednecks, but, considering the size of his voter base, it must be much, much more than just those. It seems that the number of his supporters is so large, as to encompass a very large portion of the electorate, possibly sufficient to win the election.

 I can honestly say I can’t make heads or tails of it. Hillary Clinton may be highly suspect in many regards with her Wall Street deals and so on, but even so it can’t be enough to consider making sexual assault artist and international business con-man the president.

 Now, to my actual questions to the Americans here: how bad is the personal and professional life for the average American person right now? The man in the street, so to say. I imagine it must be pretty dire to consider a person such as Trump, with his track record, as being a serious candidate for presidency. I mean, are there really no jobs, or are they so badly paid? Are the health system and the social net really that poor? Is it too dangerous for the average citizen to go out into the streets?

 What’s going on over there? Why this incredible amount of dissatisfaction of so many, many people?

As an another European, I would still like to see this question answered. All we see here of America are optimistic folk doing what they've always been doing but at the same time there are suddenly such serious problems that the country is now unable to even put forward a good, well-thinking presidential candidate?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 13:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 13:43
Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

As I live in Europe, this is a question to all of you living in the USA.

As a lot of other people, I have been watching the presidential election campaigns with a mixture of amusement and horror.

 Nothing seems to be able to derail Donald Trump’s campaign. He gets his legs shot off (well, he shoots his own legs off, mostly), and still he keeps on coming.

 He’s lost a bit of momentum, of course, but nothing seems irremediably lost for him yet. Everyone’s talking about his unshakable base of dissatisfied misfits and rednecks, but, considering the size of his voter base, it must be much, much more than just those. It seems that the number of his supporters is so large, as to encompass a very large portion of the electorate, possibly sufficient to win the election.

 I can honestly say I can’t make heads or tails of it. Hillary Clinton may be highly suspect in many regards with her Wall Street deals and so on, but even so it can’t be enough to consider making sexual assault artist and international business con-man the president.

 Now, to my actual questions to the Americans here: how bad is the personal and professional life for the average American person right now? The man in the street, so to say. I imagine it must be pretty dire to consider a person such as Trump, with his track record, as being a serious candidate for presidency. I mean, are there really no jobs, or are they so badly paid? Are the health system and the social net really that poor? Is it too dangerous for the average citizen to go out into the streets?

 What’s going on over there? Why this incredible amount of dissatisfaction of so many, many people?

As an another European, I would still like to see this question answered. All we see here of America are optimistic folk doing what they've always been doing but at the same time there are suddenly such serious problems that the country is now unable to even put forward a good, well-thinking presidential candidate?

Given reactionary politics across the globe (Farage in Britain, Duterte in the Phillipines, Putin and his pseudo-Soviet plutocracy in Russia, any number of crackpots in the Middle-east, etc.), Trump is not some local phenomenon, he simply takes full advantage of the 24/7 news cycle.

I think there is an immense middle-ground that is largely ignored by both parties here in the U.S. We go to work, make sure our children receive the best education, strive to be decent to other people, give to various charities, pay taxes and don't break laws. Trends and statistics will show you that earning power and savings have dropped dramatically for this group, and for the most part are not close to levels found in the 90s; whereas corporations, their CEOs and investors are stockpiling unimaginable wealth. 

Health costs are indeed out of control (most people are one serious illness away from catastrophe), as are college costs (for instance, the college my daughter is interested in costs $38,000 a year in tuition), but no one seems to want to touch those fundamental issues, although someone like Clinton will give them lip-service (although anyone with a nominal political acumen knows nothing will ever be done as the people that matter and their paid congressmen shills in both parties are making too much money from the status quo).

So, what? Discontented high-school educated white folks who never have recovered from losing high-paying blue collar and manufacturing jobs that didn't require college education, buy into the ludicrous sound-bites issued by Trump and his Fox News cronies that he will somehow eliminate NAFTA and other trade agreements, negotiate new ones (and I'm sure the rest of the world is waiting to bend over backwards and take one for Trump), and miraculously bring back jobs that paid at 1990s levels. 

These angry people miss the nice houses they lost in the 2009 "Great Recession". They miss owning cottages on the lake like their parents did. They miss buying a new car every few years. They are frightened to death their spouse will get cancer and their life-savings will be wiped out. They have to take care of their elderly parents because its getting to the point where there is no such thing as a golden-age retirement, and their children are in their 20s and 30s but still live at home because no one can just waltz into an auto plant and make $50 or $60 thousand like they did 20 or even 30 years ago. You start out as a contract-worker for $15 an hour, and no one can live alone on that anymore.

They are angry and they are scared, and that's how a demagogue like Trump can so easily manipulate an electorate without offering anything other than scare tactics. It's a time-honored political tradition. Fear makes people do crazy things - like voting for Brexit without any reals sense of what to do once one has Brexited. In many cases, I think people know that change is necessary, want to see change, and will do anything for change's sake, while not considering the consequences of the change, or even if it will actually benefit them.


Edited by The Dark Elf - October 22 2016 at 13:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 13:53
sure...

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

As I live in Europe, this is a question to all of you living in the USA.

As a lot of other people, I have been watching the presidential election campaigns with a mixture of amusement and horror.

As we have....LOL

 Nothing seems to be able to derail Donald Trump’s campaign. He gets his legs shot off (well, he shoots his own legs off, mostly), and still he keeps on coming.


google Tribal politics..

 He’s lost a bit of momentum, of course, but nothing seems irremediably lost for him yet. Everyone’s talking about his unshakable base of dissatisfied misfits and rednecks, but, considering the size of his voter base, it must be much, much more than just those. It seems that the number of his supporters is so large, as to encompass a very large portion of the electorate, possibly sufficient to win the election.


no.. there really are that many ignorant uninformed hyper partisan voters in this country. Trump said it best.. he could shoot someone down in the middle of day.. with cameras all around.. and he wouldn't lose a single core supporter's vote. They are angry.. and full of hate man. but no..  thankfully not enough to win an election. 

 I can honestly say I can’t make heads or tails of it. Hillary Clinton may be highly suspect in many regards with her Wall Street deals and so on, but even so it can’t be enough to consider making sexual assault artist and international business con-man the president.


google hate...  and brush back up on tribal politics again. Elections here are not based on the candidate... not for many.. it is all about voting with the tribe. Partisan idenitificaiton. Much more than even Hillary's vote.. much of Trump is drivin by being against her.  A product of nearly 30 years of hate and endless attempts to destroy her politically.  Peole actually HATE her.. as if she has done something personally wrong.. shot their f**king dog or f**ked their wives...LOL

 Now, to my actual questions to the Americans here: how bad is the personal and professional life for the average American person right now? The man in the street, so to say. I imagine it must be pretty dire to consider a person such as Trump, with his track record, as being a serious candidate for presidency. I mean, are there really no jobs, or are they so badly paid? Are the health system and the social net really that poor? Is it too dangerous for the average citizen to go out into the streets?

Life is great man... I don't buy the make America Great bulssh*t... it is those Trump panders to that are everything that is wrong with this country. Racism.. bigotry.. sexism.. white privilege... christian fundamentalist entitlement. Thankfully I have little to do with them.. I live in a diverse, educated well off area and have a great well paying Recession proof job working with the same.  My work crew is only 40% white.. that is the new America... cherish it.. don't fear it. Plenty of jobs... with good pay... and though there are some sections of this city you DON'T go to if not dark of skin (or even if you are) after nightfall LOL all in all it is very safe.

 What’s going on over there? Why this incredible amount of dissatisfaction of so many, many people?


it is the product of two Americas..  one intellligent, enlightened.. welcoming the social and demographic changes we are having....the other ingorant and full of hate and rage about the loss of a white christian America
As an another European, I would still like to see this question answered. All we see here of America are optimistic folk doing what they've always been doing but at the same time there are suddenly such serious problems that the country is now unable to even put forward a good, well-thinking presidential candidate?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 14:01
^ ^ Greg, thanks for your thoughts  Thumbs Up - a wise and balanced assessment can help us outside the US trying to understand the madness that's going on .


Edited by Quinino - October 22 2016 at 14:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2016 at 14:19
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

 As I live in Europe, this is a question to all of you living in the USA.

As a lot of other people, I have been watching the presidential election campaigns with a mixture of amusement and horror.

 Nothing seems to be able to derail Donald Trump’s campaign. He gets his legs shot off (well, he shoots his own legs off, mostly), and still he keeps on coming.

 He’s lost a bit of momentum, of course, but nothing seems irremediably lost for him yet. Everyone’s talking about his unshakable base of dissatisfied misfits and rednecks, but, considering the size of his voter base, it must be much, much more than just those. It seems that the number of his supporters is so large, as to encompass a very large portion of the electorate, possibly sufficient to win the election.

 I can honestly say I can’t make heads or tails of it. Hillary Clinton may be highly suspect in many regards with her Wall Street deals and so on, but even so it can’t be enough to consider making sexual assault artist and international business con-man the president.

 Now, to my actual questions to the Americans here: how bad is the personal and professional life for the average American person right now? The man in the street, so to say. I imagine it must be pretty dire to consider a person such as Trump, with his track record, as being a serious candidate for presidency. I mean, are there really no jobs, or are they so badly paid? Are the health system and the social net really that poor? Is it too dangerous for the average citizen to go out into the streets?

 What’s going on over there? Why this incredible amount of dissatisfaction of so many, many people?

As an another European, I would still like to see this question answered. All we see here of America are optimistic folk doing what they've always been doing but at the same time there are suddenly such serious problems that the country is now unable to even put forward a good, well-thinking presidential candidate?

Given reactionary politics across the globe (Farage in Britain, Duterte in the Phillipines, Putin and his pseudo-Soviet plutocracy in Russia, any number of crackpots in the Middle-east, etc.), Trump is not some local phenomenon, he simply takes full advantage of the 24/7 news cycle.
Now I will need to stop here because I've heard this one too many times; here you're pointing towards some countries who have been under pressure and doing bad for a long time(and not really significantly worse now) on one side and Europe on the other, where we have had millions of immigrants coming in out of nowhere plus a range of terrorist attacks and by now the problem is already decreasing as far as I'm aware, here in the Netherlands we took in 100,000 immigrants under some heavy protests from a vocal minority and the government responded accordingly, built what turned too be actually too many accomodations and volunteers had to be sent home. The were was a minimal amount of incidents since they came in and are now getting prepared for the job market as the support for Wilders is already dropping. America has come into its own troubles without pressure from the outside, entirely by themselves, which is just odd for a country with that much wealth, which is where my question stemmed from.
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I think there is an immense middle-ground that is largely ignored by both parties here in the U.S.
Well I believe a good democracy is deeply grounded in the Trias Politica, in which the people are fully responsible for a electing a good government. If politics is so bad for the majority, the majority is doing something wrong.
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

We go to work, make sure our children receive the best education, strive to be decent to other people, give to various charities, pay taxes and don't break laws. Trends and statistics will show you that earning power and savings have dropped dramatically for this group, and for the most part are not close to levels found in the 90s; whereas corporations, their CEOs and investors are stockpiling unimaginable wealth. 

Health costs are indeed out of control (most people are one serious illness away from catastrophe), as are college costs (for instance, the college my daughter is interested in costs $38,000 a year in tuition), but no one seems to want to touch those fundamental issues, although someone like Clinton will give them lip-service (although anyone with a nominal political acumen knows nothing will ever be done as the people that matter and their paid congressmen shills in both parties are making too much money from the status quo).

So, what? Discontented high-school educated white folks who never have recovered from losing high-paying blue collar and manufacturing jobs that didn't require college education, buy into the ludicrous sound-bites issued by Trump and his Fox News cronies that he will somehow eliminate NAFTA and other trade agreements, negotiate new ones (and I'm sure the rest of the world is waiting to bend over backwards and take one for Trump), and miraculously bring back jobs that paid at 1990s levels. 

These angry people miss the nice houses they lost in the 2009 "Great Recession". They miss owning cottages on the lake like their parents did. They miss buying a new car every few years. They are frightened to death their spouse will get cancer and their life-savings will be wiped out. They have to take care of their elderly parents because its getting to the point where there is no such thing as a golden-age retirement, and their children are in their 20s and 30s but still live at home because no one can just waltz into an auto plant and make $50 or $60 thousand like they did 20 or even 30 years ago. You start out as a contract-worker for $15 an hour, and no one can live alone on that anymore.

They are angry and they are scared, and that's how a demagogue like Trump can so easily manipulate an electorate without offering anything other than scare tactics. It's a time-honored political tradition. Fear makes people do crazy things - like voting for Brexit without any reals sense of what to do once one has Brexited. In many cases, I think people know that change is necessary, want to see change, and will do anything for change's sake, while not considering the consequences of the change, or even if it will actually benefit them.
Thank you without sarcasm, that's actually an insightful answer to my question.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2016 at 16:15
another point if you are interested in figuring out the American electorate... one I sort of touched on.. but didn't fully cover. Yes it is not about the candidates. .thus.. like Trump.. a horribly unqualified or unsuitable candidate is NOT enough to necessarily run off voters if.. he is in their tribal/partisan camp but also an important point I didn't bring up.  SIngle issue voting.. two of them are King in American Poltics..

one abortion..

the second...  umm hmmm... god I love this picture...  feel the joy and the power darling...



great article about on Politico today about this.. anyhow.. these two issues often overule any and all other  concerns of many American voters...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2016 at 19:49
I came across this insightful para in a Rolling Stone review of Use Your Illusion I (least likely place, both mag and album, where you could expect that huh!) which seems to eerily evoke today's America for an outsider:

"On the other hand, it's not enough to simply be indignant about Illusion I's verbal rancor. You ought to be scared for the future. Get past the "parental advisory" buzzwords and you hear a declaration of insolence fueled by self-righteous anger and fearful confusion. Guns n' Roses' rock & roll n****rs-with-attitude act, however indefensible at times, is emblematic of a greater adolescent cancer: an almost total loss of hope compounded by blind, impotent rage and the perverted Reagan-Bush morality in which the actual cloth of the Stars and Stripes is deemed more holy than the freedom and humanity for which it stands."

As the review goes on to describe, Don't Damn Me is also a vicious rant (in an album/tour full of rants) by AXL against political correctness.  And yet again, America is looking to a Clinton to save the day.  I just wonder where the lift off will come from, though.  More jobless growth may in fact exacerbate the problem.  There wasn't much service sector outsourcing back in 1991 either. The difference is the Republicans had enjoyed a long reign in power at the time whereas it is now looking likely that the Democrats will enjoy a third successive term.  Opinion polls and even exit polls can go terribly wrong but I do find strength in the argument that Trump has lost the female electorate who are by themselves large enough to defeat him in the election.  Would be the ultimate irony too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2016 at 15:26
The whole Single Issue voter thing has me completely baffled. How can a person voting for the leader of a country focus on just one issue to make that decision. Life is way more complicated than that. As a Project Manager I'm tasked with managing multiple issues over multiple projects. To think that I could be successful by focusing only on one of them, even if it was all of them but only one at time, is absurd. Choosing a leader should not be much different. You need to look at them on the  whole. Balancing the good from the bad, the right from the wrong, the distasteful from the deplorable. It's hard to reconcile that the evangelicals only care about stopping abortions because the 'value life' but are willing to support individuals who have no compunction about supporting someone who will start a war which cost way more lives than abortion. Likewise, "Get government out of my life" vs "You can't smoke that herb" mentality is so diametrically opposed that it defies rationality.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2016 at 15:44
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Let's see
West and East
North and South
Rich and Poor
Old and Young
White and Non white
Male and Female
Straight and Gay
Religious and Not Religious
and on and on and off
I wanted to see where this ended up before responding. Well, if we have old ultra conservative Republicans  as well as liberial Democrats against Trump, then we have 3 groups of voters. And as others have noted about duality, three's a crowd.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2016 at 17:40
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

The whole Single Issue voter thing has me completely baffled. How can a person voting for the leader of a country focus on just one issue to make that decision. Life is way more complicated than that. As a Project Manager I'm tasked with managing multiple issues over multiple projects. To think that I could be successful by focusing only on one of them, even if it was all of them but only one at time, is absurd. Choosing a leader should not be much different. You need to look at them on the  whole. Balancing the good from the bad, the right from the wrong, the distasteful from the deplorable. It's hard to reconcile that the evangelicals only care about stopping abortions because the 'value life' but are willing to support individuals who have no compunction about supporting someone who will start a war which cost way more lives than abortion. Likewise, "Get government out of my life" vs "You can't smoke that herb" mentality is so diametrically opposed that it defies rationality.


didn't say it wasn't absurd... but it is reality I suppose.  I guess that is the point isn't it...  there is no rational explanation to be had to try to explain what drives people to vote. Since most people are selfish in 99% of their personal lives but for that 1% little thing.. that is politics.  I can think of a 100 more imporant things than giving women the right to choose to terminate pregancies.. or whether you should be allowed to own an arsonnel of weapons.  yet.. even more than their own self interest.. economic that is.. those are the issues that do drive people's votes.. and yes.. they often boil down to THE single most defining aspects of many voters and Presidential elections here.. control of the Supreme court. What I often call the Culture war.. really is nothing more than a battle to control the Supreme Court. Only there can the war truly be fought...  only there can states not get away with legislating bigroty racism or homophobia. 


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