So why did Hilary lose? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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SteveG

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Posted: November 16 2016 at 04:21

micky wrote:

America wasn't ready for a truly left .. Socialist Party or socialist in a Democratic party blue. After 4 years of Trump.. and having the poor white working class get the shaft again by the same rich Repubican tycoons they seem to want to support .. thinking they give ONE f**k about them... this country might just be ready for someone who ..at their core.. truly believes in the American worker.

We'll. America wasn't ready for a black President either, and some can argue that it still isn't, but I agree that the future focus will be on the lower middle class American worker. Once the backbone of this country, they are the suffering majority. The Dems need to return their focus on them, big time.

(With a socialist candidate, of course.

)

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Altairius

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Posted: November 16 2016 at 05:28

Liberals on Wikileaks when it was coming out with dirt on the Bush administration: "Assange is a hero. We have to support whistleblowers."

When it came out with dirt on Hillary: "IT'S A RUSSIAN CONSPIRACY! TRUMP AND ASSANGE ARE PUPPETS OF PUTIN."

We live in truly amazing times, when liberals are the red scare people. Let's all just be glad we're not ramping up war with Russia over some insane "no fly zone" in Syria.

Americans don't want the US to keep being policeman of the world. They want the focus to be on America first. That, among other reasons, is why Hillary lost.

micky

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Posted: November 16 2016 at 16:27

SteveG wrote:

(With a socialist candidate, of course.

)

America was ready for a Black President.. it was the Republican Party and its racists and bigots at its core that wasn't. LOL

however... we are only a short time from what necessitated the centrist privot of the Democratic Party.. which Obama did continue... we are not far my friend from the days when being called a Liberal was only slightly beter than being called a Leper... times have changed.. but not that far yet..

yes the youth might have been slightly more energized... probably a net sum of 0 for Democrats as Bernie would not have drawn minorities as well as Hillary did.. HIllary murdered him in the primaries.. that was not a strength of his... and again as the election showed.. they are not exactly reliable voters.

where the real problem would have been is independents... it is those.. even centrist Democrats are not quite ready for leftward shift of the party economically. After 4 years of Trump... it is likely they will be.. like we needed to have another try at the same old failed and disproven Republican policies... how quickly American voter forgets ... all smoke in the GOP message.. yet no fire.. no real ideas to fix the problems they rail againsy.. never mind a great many of of their own creation LOL

Donald Trump? see Jimmy Carter in that he will herald in the next political revolution. We had the Reagan Revolution. Thankfully now dead and buried. Now it is the left's turn. Book it.. the Warren Revolution starts in 2020 fed by Trump and so many promises he'll never be able to come close to keeping.. nor of course finding he can.. even IF he bothers to really try... make working class American's lives better.

Edited by micky - November 16 2016 at 16:33

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

TeleStrat

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Posted: November 16 2016 at 17:04

Speaking of Independents, according to Gallup the 2015 figures were 26% Republican, 29% Democrat and 42% Independents.

The Independent numbers have been 40% or higher for the last five years.

SteveG

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Posted: November 17 2016 at 04:21

micky wrote:

America was ready for a Black President.. it was the Republican Party and its racists and bigots at its core that wasn't.

That's pretty much what I meant. I should have said that half of America wasn't ready for Obama and a big part of Trumps' victory is due to the racial backlash. (Blacklash? ) Another part of Trump's victory, which many, in both the media and the public, fail to acknowledge is due to the natural Yin/Yang of the two party system that alternates the Presidential office with one party outvoting the other until the next eight year cycle rolls around and brings the losers back into power in the White House.

But in this case, it will take at least eight years to turn the rust belt states from red back to blue. And the Dems better get cracking. Pronto.

Edited by SteveG - November 17 2016 at 08:35

HackettFan View Drop Down

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Posted: November 17 2016 at 08:09

SteveG wrote:

micky wrote:

America was ready for a Black President.. it was the Republican Party and its racists and bigots at its core that wasn't.

That's pretty much what I meant. I should have said that half of America wasn't ready for Obama and a big part of Trumps' victory is due to the backlash. (Blacklash? )
Another part of Trump's victory, which many, in both the media and the public, fail to acknowledge is due to the natural Yin/Yang of the two party system that alternates the Presidential office with one party outvoting the other until the next eight year cycle rolls around and brings the losers back into power in the White House.

But in this case, it will take at least eight years to turn this rust belt states from red back to blue. And the Dems better get cracking. Pronto.

I think you're right about the yin/yang thing.

Or maybe I'm just excited because I so seldom get to use this emoticon.

Four years, I say, I hope. We need politics to change faster than the climate and faster than Supreme Court vacancies come about.

A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)

SteveG

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Posted: November 17 2016 at 12:34

Just to go slightly off topic, but not really that far, has any prog band used this

symbol for a band or album logo?

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Dean

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Posted: November 17 2016 at 14:23

What?

JJLehto

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Posted: November 18 2016 at 01:48

As it's been said: It's insane to deny the role race played in this election.

However, there has been an extreme focus on it, which I fear may miss other points. Remember, the blue states, and counties, lost in 2016 voted for Obama twice, easily. A liberal, pro choice, gun control black man. To paint the entire thing with the "racism" stroke is a bit dangerous.

Even weirder, a die hard Clinton supporter I know insists it was her leftward drift to fight off Sanders that cost her, and he shat on the idea of progressives taking over, insisting we need pro life, pro gun, less urban focused Democrats. .....I asked him why he so strongly supports the pro choice, strongly pro gun control (more than Sanders!) and very urban focused Hillary and shockingly he failed to respond LOL

Anywho, I think we've long explored the answer to this question, but always good to get some official word, tough to disagree with campaign insiders. Some staffers say the campaign was undone by neglect and a touch of arrogance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-campaign-neglect_us_582cacb0e4b058ce7aa8b861

Seems Clinton not only didn't campaign much in the rust belt, she actually ignored the concerns of local campaign workers. In some cases (like Flint, Milwaukee) the very areas staffers said were being neglected were places were lower than 2012 turnout cost her the state Cry

Consensus being: She (like all of us) just assumed she had those states in the bag.

micky

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Posted: November 18 2016 at 03:38

a mistake made once... but never again. Unlike the famous 2012 Republican post mortem. The Democrats don't have to change radically to shore up their problems. It was a error of judgement.. not contradicting ideology.

The bright side is it only takes the effort needed to appeal to those voters... or at least some of them.. those rural working class likely break two ways.. those genuinely affected and voted as such by ecomonics.. yes the Democrats can win their votes... the bumpkin votes.. guns god and white power... the Democrats will never get their votes.. and they don't need them. They have the socially conscious and liberal urban and suburban voters.

the point being... one can appeal to both.. it was simply a matter of mistaken judgement that Clinton didn't. Good luck for the Republicans to solve their problem... appealing to whites based on hate and fear.. yet appealing the minorities which are the basis OF white man's fear. They stole an election here.. fairly and squarely.. but I wouldn't expect this to be the norm. Only an aberration

Edited by micky - November 18 2016 at 03:41

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SteveG

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Posted: November 18 2016 at 03:59

Dean wrote:

Serves me right for abandoning Fish after he abandoned Marillion!

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Roj

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Posted: November 29 2016 at 07:07

Apologies for being somehat late to the table Embarrassed

.

As a Brit who was actually in the States during the build-up and the election itself, I was surprised at the lack of passion in Clinton in the week leading up to the election. One could almost sense Trump gaining ground although I'm sure everybody thought it was too late. I remarked to the missus on the day of the election something along the lines of "You know, another week and she may have been in trouble here". Hmmmm.

The speech Clinton gave after the result (the following day) was outstanding. Full of passion and feeling. Had she spoken from the heart like that prior to the big day (rather than engaging in the points-scoring pot shots fight with Trump) she may well have inspired more people to get out and vote for her.

SteveG

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Posted: November 29 2016 at 07:46

^Better late than never.

Trump is now bitching that the popular vote was rigged but his Presidency wining electoral votes were not. He tweeted that millions voted illegally to give Hilary a two million vote lead in the popular. Nuts. Just nuts.

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JJLehto

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Posted: November 29 2016 at 23:47

Yup. Trump is the sorest winner ever. He, like many of his supporters, just HAVE to find a way to be a victim.

He didn't win the popular vote, he's not only livid, people are naturally questioning the validity of his win, throw fuel on the fire. So of course he's throwing another tantrum...talking even farther from his ass.

It's funny, his "millions of illegals voted!" BS would mean the system is indeed flawed/corrupt and thus we SHOULD do recounts. Of course he doesn't want that, as you pointed out he's magically A OK with the system now that he's won LOL

And we know the GOP always takes to voter disenfranchisement. Wouldn't want people looking too much into that!

Edited by JJLehto - November 30 2016 at 05:13

JJLehto

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Posted: November 30 2016 at 05:22

OK done so much analysis even I'm getting tired of it.

Gunna leave this here as my final note on all this madness.

538 did a county by county analysis (god I love that place) and found Trump did best where the economy was weakest (higher unemployment, lower job growth & income) or economic anxiety was highest (higher # of jobs that are threatened by automation or being sent oversaes). This holds true for blue counties that went red as well.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-was-stronger-where-the-economy-is-weaker/

Pretty darn definitive to me.

Racial and gender aspects can't be denied, but I do really think there were secondary to economics. As well as education and age.

WI, MI, PA (as well as OH and IA) voted for Obama twice, easily. He actually did better in all those than Kerry, Gore and Bill. And in FL 7 counties basically decided the state, 4 that flipped blue and 3 that went very strongly for Trump, and all are working class/lower income counties and suburban.

Women voted in near similar numbers as 2012, and white (especially older, non degree holding) women went for Trump like their male counterparts. Age seemed to cut across gender.

So yeah, multifaceted campaign but seems clear cut to me economic woe is the main reason why Hillary lost. Lesson learned and hope the Dems press on armed with this knowledge.

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: November 30 2016 at 06:35

Altairius wrote:

Liberals on Wikileaks when it was coming out with dirt on the Bush administration: "Assange is a hero. We have to support whistleblowers."

When it came out with dirt on Hillary: "IT'S A RUSSIAN CONSPIRACY! TRUMP AND ASSANGE ARE PUPPETS OF PUTIN."

We live in truly amazing times, when liberals are the red scare people. Let's all just be glad we're not ramping up war with Russia over some insane "no fly zone" in Syria.

Americans don't want the US to keep being policeman of the world. They want the focus to be on America first. That, among other reasons, is why Hillary lost.

Yep! That's how it works, I'm afraid.

We all applaud whistle blowers until the they blow the whistle on someone we admire or support admire. That kind of hypocrisy is just part of the human condition.

Note, I am NOT a Trump supporter. It's often assumed that if you're not A then you automatically B when in fact you may be neither.

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

JJLehto

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Posted: November 30 2016 at 23:07

Well said Blacksword.

Seen a lot of that in general. It's honestly impossible today to make a simple neutral point. I don't exaggerate, I can't ever say anyone from the right is ever "qualified" without a sh*tstorm happening, and have seen Republican friends get blasted themselves for saying some liberal/Democrat is qualified or "a wise choice"

We have to explain no no no I dont like X, just you cant deny they're qualified for the position, and more yelling goes on. So many times seen people get labeled as liking Trump or Clinton, over the most neutral statements.

Really scary how public discourse has gotten so tribal...identity politics has taken over, everything is "us vs them" it seems

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: December 01 2016 at 06:40

JJLehto wrote:

Well said Blacksword.

Really scary how public discourse has gotten so tribal...identity politics has taken over, everything is "us vs them" it seems

I think it's quite instinctive for humans to be tribal. That's why sport is so popular and why some sports evoke violence and thuggery among its followers. Politics is similar. The problem is people STILL, even now believe what politicians say if they happen to be wearing the correct coloured jersey.

The older I get the more contempt I have for the political class in general. I think neither the left or right have the answers and in every political system there are winners and losers. In the current political reality there are huge numbers of losers who don't realise they are such because they are made to feel by the media and by consumerism that they are in some crass and shallow way empowered and on a winning side. Twilight zone stuff.

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!