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Snicolette 
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 Posted: January 05 2019 at 14:27 |
 AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
I don't typically think of the Moody Blues as classical rock because only the one album "days of future passed" has an orchestra on it. There were some other orchestral moments but most of their symphonic sound was due to Mike Pinder's mellotron most of the time. Lot's of bands had mellotron such as Yes, Genesis, KC, PFM etc and I don't think of them typically as classical rock but that's all my opinion of course. Classical rock without the prog element to me would be someone like ELO and even they are considered prog by some. |
In retrospect, you are probably right on your reasoning of why you wouldn't think of the Moodys as "classical rock," however, I was making the statement that at the time of their emergence (in the US), that is how they were described, as were Procol Harum, and ELO's progenitor and The Move, at that point in time...The "progressive, or "art rock," terms were used later, as when King Crimson, ELP, etc., emerged a teensy bit later and then these bands (and others) were seen to have been the precursors.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 16:52 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
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I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Snicolette
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 17:00 |
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Yes, Zappa was his own thing entirely, pretty much, and we wouldn't have considered him Prog in the day either, he was just Zappa and were amazed by him.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 17:58 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
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I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis(who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 05 2019 at 18:01
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 18:38 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
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I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis (who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
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No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Shorter song based compositions are a feature of Prog (not a bug)
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 22:51 |
Ian Anderson could craft exquisite, fully-formed songs in under 1.5 minutes that were germane and integral to the general concept of a specific album: Cheap Day Return, Slipstream, Nursie, Just Trying To Be, Only Solitaire, Grace, etc., and yet he could also write splendid long-form compositions as well.
Vomiting up 10 or 20 minute long songs on every album because you're eternally defined as "prog" always seemed as silly a definer for the genre as the specious "wizards and dragons" tag prog was labeled with by certain Luddite critics.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 23:17 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
|
I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis (who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
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No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Shorter song based compositions are a feature of Prog (not a bug)
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I understand that but what I'm getting at is can they be the rule and not the exception in prog?
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: January 05 2019 at 23:32 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
|
I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis (who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
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No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Shorter song based compositions are a feature of Prog (not a bug)
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I understand that but what I'm getting at is can they be the rule and not the exception in prog?
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I would say broadly speaking yes, song based compositions are the predominant norm in all popular music not just Prog (notwithstanding the pseudo suites I alluded to earlier re Thick as a Brick and Suppers Ready) I'm starting to suspect that you might consider short simple catchy songs as inimical to Prog?
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 06 2019 at 08:51 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
|
I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis (who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
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No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Shorter song based compositions are a feature of Prog (not a bug)
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I understand that but what I'm getting at is can they be the rule and not the exception in prog?
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I would say broadly speaking yes, song based compositions are the predominant norm in all popular music not just Prog (notwithstanding the pseudo suites I alluded to earlier re Thick as a Brick and Suppers Ready) I'm starting to suspect that you might consider short simple catchy songs as inimical to Prog?
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Inimical? Really? Well, at least I get to learn a new word.  I think maybe you mean antithetical? :P
Anyway, in a way yes. If all bands did nothing but short songs how would that differentiate themselves from all the other rock bands? The only difference would be a few keyboard solos here and there and maybe some strings or something. Baroque pop was already doing that and so was psych. I would say full blown prog needs something to differentiate itself from the norm and just having the "window dressing" wouldn't be enough. This is just my opinion though and I admit this may be a strict definition but I suppose others feel the same way. Also, that being said like I implied this strict definition may be loosening in recent years.
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moshkito
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Posted: January 06 2019 at 10:09 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Over the past several years I've noticed a trend within certain kinds of prog(or at least certain kinds of music that gets labelled as prog)and that is for bands to make mostly shorter and less complex songs.... |
Hi,
I think that this is more the influence of commercial music and the "top ten" thing than it is anything else ... it seems like ... it SEEMS like ... the majority of the bands that come out these days, all have a touch of the top ten, and their material, with a few notable exceptions, is pretty much styled to a "song" format.
This is not to say that a short song can not be "prog/progressive", however, for many of us old folks, it was the longer cut that brought us to this music ... because ... as it was for me ... this was the classical music of my generation and how we interpreted it.
Sometimes I feel that we are not capable of defining music, from a song to something more classical. However, this distinction has come into a bad spot, with things like jazz and other types of music.
I've come to feel that we're afraid to TRIP ... regardless of how this is done.
A perfect example is a new user posting asking about this style or that ... when he/she could easily do a search in this website, and find out, and then be able to listen to a couple of things on the Internet and then go ahead and post some questions. The "lazyness" within this context is a problem ... many of those people are stuck in the "feed me" process of commercialism, and as such, their ability, and sometimes desire, to find out something new, is probably limited.
If I compare a few postings to what we would ask way back when, the first thing in my mind is ... are you really interested in a new "art", or just want to get a Wiki/CliffNotes version of it? (BTW, this was a problem during the drug/psych days ... many folks only wanted to get stoned and laid and didn't give a crap about the music!)
I get the feeling that "progressive music" would not have come alive if this were the case, besides the fact that most of it was a natural reaction to the commercialism on radio at the time.
We still don't see that, and I think the day we do, we will find a lot of new things and a new scene.
Edited by moshkito - January 06 2019 at 10:11
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: January 06 2019 at 11:08 |
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^Not sure what you mean by "top ten."
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Lewian
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Posted: January 06 2019 at 15:26 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
Ian Anderson could craft exquisite, fully-formed songs in under 1.5 minutes that were germane and integral to the general concept of a specific album: Cheap Day Return, Slipstream, Nursie, Just Trying To Be, Only Solitaire, Grace, etc., and yet he could also write splendid long-form compositions as well. |
Post 'em here!
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: January 07 2019 at 01:36 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]
What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
|
I agree that both Crimson and Gentle Giant have often dispensed entirely with song based musical structures in their output but I would still maintain that Yes, for all their ingenuous arrangements and virtuosity, like the vast majority of their Prog brethren, are at heart a rock/pop band with a song based core. (TFTO might be the exception to this but I'm lukewarm as to its merits alas) For me,Thick as a Brick belongs to the same school of short song based fragments segued together into a pseudo suite as that of Suppers Ready. That's an observation not a criticism.
As Snicolette points out, Zappa certainly does have the requisite breadth and technical reach to supplant traditional popular song forms but (here's the funny thing) I never think of Frank as being a prime exponent of Prog. Perhaps that says more about my narrow view of what constitutes Progressive Rock than it does about a vast and eclectic output which encompasses every conceivable genre and a few of his own devising....
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Well, I disagree about Yes being song based(with some exceptions of course) but not GG. GG were just very quirky and complex. Octopus for example is all shorter song based songs but very quirky ones with complexity. Same thing with half of Starless and Bible black, the vocal songs on ltia and much of lizard. I think all the major prog bands did some shorter simple songs. I don't see how Heart of the Sunrise or starship trooper are song based but some of those KC and GG songs aren't. I guess that's what I'm getting at. I think at their heart Yes were definitely prog and so were Genesis (who I have heard people say what you just said about Yes even in the PG days). I suppose you are breaking it down in a different way than I would.
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No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Shorter song based compositions are a feature of Prog (not a bug)
|
I understand that but what I'm getting at is can they be the rule and not the exception in prog?
|
I would say broadly speaking yes, song based compositions are the predominant norm in all popular music not just Prog (notwithstanding the pseudo suites I alluded to earlier re Thick as a Brick and Suppers Ready) I'm starting to suspect that you might consider short simple catchy songs as inimical to Prog?
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Inimical? Really? Well, at least I get to learn a new word. I think maybe you mean antithetical? :P
Anyway, in a way yes. If all bands did nothing but short songs how would that differentiate themselves from all the other rock bands? The only difference would be a few keyboard solos here and there and maybe some strings or something. Baroque pop was already doing that and so was psych. I would say full blown prog needs something to differentiate itself from the norm and just having the "window dressing" wouldn't be enough. This is just my opinion though and I admit this may be a strict definition but I suppose others feel the same way. Also, that being said like I implied this strict definition may be loosening in recent years.
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I really did mean inimical to Prog (tending to obstruct or harm) although antithetical works also (directly opposed or contrasted; mutually incompatible) It's how Prog bands do the shorter songs that really counts e.g. I Know what I Like, America, Lucky Man, Roundabout, Living in the Past, Going For the One, Arnold Layne, Sylvia, See Emily Play, Fanfare for the Common Man, Conquistador, Hold Your Head Up, Blowing Free etc. In my book these just don't sound like the work of plain vanilla Rock/Pop artists. I do take your point about things getting a tad 'blurry' if everyone was using time-honoured song formats and structures exclusively etc Although I think the PA definition bang on the money, there are relatively few artists included in Crossover that I would consider to be 'a best possible fit' and I suspect you feel considerably more strongly about this than I?
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Tom Ozric
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Posted: January 07 2019 at 01:54 |
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The latest JADIS album is mainly ‘normal’ length songs and it kicks ass.
I think it was when John Wetton was in Asia (or was it Geoff Downes ? ) said that their songs were Prog songs minus all the noodling. I can agree with that.
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Posted: January 07 2019 at 02:47 |
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"I'm wondering if this means a loosening up in the strict definition of what constitutes prog these days"
I wasn't aware that there was a strict definition of what constitutes prog. Prog rock seems to be different things to different people, and that's absolutely fine by me, and I suspect the artists also couldn't give a rats ass either way.
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Posted: January 07 2019 at 05:23 |
Tom Ozric wrote:
I think it was when John Wetton was in Asia (or was it Geoff Downes ? ) said that their songs were Prog songs minus all the noodling. I can agree with that. |
A highly reductive view of prog if you ask me!
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moshkito
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Posted: January 07 2019 at 07:46 |
Tom Ozric wrote:
The latest JADIS album is mainly ‘normal’ length songs and it kicks ass.
I think it was when John Wetton was in Asia (or was it Geoff Downes ? ) said that their songs were Prog songs minus all the noodling. I can agree with that. |
This was a joke ... not serious.
Otherwise his own work with KING CRIMSON, was full of noodling ... not to mention some other stuff in the early days of FAMILY when he was all over the place.
The real story, is that a song format would give his lyrics a better forum, than what happened in KING CRIMSON, where the lyrics would be considered ... just another instrument in the musical piece. AND, for someone that was acquiring a large/big status, of course he would say that his lyrics were more important ... that is ... his songs, and not the noodling! That's what happens here, too! But I seriously doubt that he would criticize any of that material ... specially him, that had one of the strongest lists of anyone around!
Edited by moshkito - January 08 2019 at 15:33
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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