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dr wu23 
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 Posted: September 26 2014 at 12:44 |
 Logan wrote:
Not to further hijack this thread, but speaking of Brit Proto-Prog albums, I always thought Cream was worthy of a place in PA (doesn't mean I want to go through the suggestion and addition process, however). |
Just curious but which songs by Cream would you consider proto prog..?
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Logan
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Posted: September 26 2014 at 12:56 |
dr wu23 wrote:
Logan wrote:
Not to further hijack this thread, but speaking of Brit Proto-Prog albums, I always thought Cream was worthy of a place in PA (doesn't mean I want to go through the suggestion and addition process, however). |
Just curious but which songs by Cream would you consider proto prog..? |
I tend not to think on the song level so much as the experience of a whole album, and I think Wheels of Fire especially and Disreali Gears have merits (as well as other music). Wheels of Fire, for instance, has an eclecticness (or whatver the proper word is) that brings the album into an early progressive rock sphere for me. It's not about any particular track, it's about the whole package. It's about the album, for me, taken as a whole and its contrasts and variation. Also Cream has influenced a lot of rock including progressive rock. Songs: Passing the Time, Pressed Rat and Warthog, Deserted Cities of the Heart, Tales of Brave Ulysses, Those Were the Days, White Room to an extent, Sunshine of Your Love maybe.
Edited by Logan - September 26 2014 at 12:57
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SteveG
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Posted: September 26 2014 at 13:38 |
Logan wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Logan wrote:
Not to further hijack this thread, but speaking of Brit Proto-Prog albums, I always thought Cream was worthy of a place in PA (doesn't mean I want to go through the suggestion and addition process, however). |
Just curious but which songs by Cream would you consider proto prog..? |
I tend not to think on the song level so much as the experience of a whole album, and I think Wheels of Fire especially and Disreali Gears have merits (as well as other music). Wheels of Fire, for instance, has an eclecticness (or whatver the proper word is) that brings the album into an early progressive rock sphere for me. It's not about any particular track, it's about the whole package. It's about the album, for me, taken as a whole and its contrasts and variation.Also Cream has influenced a lot of rock including progressive rock.Songs: Passing the Time, Pressed Rat and Warthog, Deserted Cities of the Heart, Tales of Brave Ulysses, Those Were the Days, White Room to an extent, Sunshine of Your Love maybe.
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Strange Brew  seems Proto to me, but as Dr. Wu knows, sometimes my judgement gets clouded.
Edited by SteveG - September 26 2014 at 14:08
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SteveG
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Posted: September 26 2014 at 13:41 |
dr wu23 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
.... And just for the record, I do not consider myself a Proto expert. Just a Proto fan. |
Not to hijack the thread but what other early proto prog do you like?
I'm also a fan of the proto and early prog stuff ; especially the Brit bands. |
Lots! The Moody Blues, The Beatles, Doors, Hendrix, early Deep Purple, The Byrds, Zombies, and Procol Harum for starters!
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SteveG
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Posted: September 26 2014 at 14:53 |
TODDLER wrote:
Placing them in a progressive catagory has always been a task because a huge population of people will never do that. Based on the fact that when Pet Sounds was released, they were no longer who they were. It was like the American reaction to Rubber Soul. The parents of teenagers who were crazed over Beatlemania noticed the longer hair style on the cover. Believe it or not, that was a huge offense and a concern. But with the Beach Boys turning their backs on Surf Music for about 6 albums , it became very dismissive within a large percentage of the social environment and the band attempting to progress or blossom in the writing department was not appreciated or hardly conceived. I recall living through those times when practically everyone around me WANTED to think of them as ONLY a surf band. That was an attitude in the 70's , but it probably dated back as far as the Pet Sounds and Smile sessions when Captiol Records were creating issues for Brian Wilson.
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A nod to Todd. Great summery of what the changing music scene was like in the mid sixties Todd. With so much that went on in that era, it's so easy to forget. Many Thanks!
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SteveG
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Posted: September 27 2014 at 12:11 |
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[Originally posted by ClemofNazareth] Thanks for the summary... Then again, I spend most of my time pining away on flute, sitar and acoustic noodling these days, so what do I know?
Clem, may I suggest Towns Van Zandt's 1969 album Our Mother The Mountain. Features just the great man with acoustic guitar and Flute accompaniment. I can only describe this over looked American folk classic as dark "American-Gothic". No sitar though, Van Zandt was very progressive at times but not that progressive!
Edited by SteveG - September 27 2014 at 12:35
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Friday13th
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 21:54 |
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So...sorry to bring back this dead horse of a topic...but I was reading the new "100 Greatest Prog Albums" PROG magazine issue, and they have little side features of famous prog artists giving their #1 prog album. And low and behold...John Wetton's #1 prog album is...13/8 drum roll...SURF'S UP BY THE BEACH BOYS! Proof of proto-prog? lol hardly, there were a few other albums that even made the listen that are not really prog, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 10 2014 at 23:04 |
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^ The point is that was his answer; you can't second-guess someone just because you don't see things their way. If John friggin' Wetton says Surf's Up is his #1 prog album, than it might as well be a prog album.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
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Posted: October 13 2014 at 14:49 |
^Bravo! 
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SteveG
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Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:47 |
.
 "Surf's Up" [/QUOTE]From the man's own mouth: "The summer of '71 had so many musical milestones; Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, Joni Mitchell's Blue, Mile Davis' Sketches of Spain, but Surf's Up was a revelation. I was in family, a major player in the first wave of British progressive bands, but this collection from the iconic California surg-pop band shifted my parameters, blurring all the bounderies of my musical vocabulary. I marvelled at Van Dyke Parks mind-expanding poetry of the title track, wallowing in the glorious harmonies. Both composition and production absolutely floored me. the whole experience was my nirvana, And the cover? Mega prog!-John Wetton, Issue 49 of Prog Magazine. Thanks to my brother, Biff, in Scotland for sending me the article. Don't fret Bro. Bert Jansch isn't gone, he's only sleeping like King Arthur.
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TODDLER
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Posted: October 28 2014 at 09:28 |
I agree. I remember people in my life who were Beach Boys fans in the early 60's ...trying to convince me NOT to buy this!  Do I sound like an extremist?..Well, that's how people reacted in those days. People in the 60's and early 70's were very educated to music in general because of what the radio had to offer everyone, but this other strange attitude existed where you'd often hear people say: "Why do you want to buy that Beach Boys album?" "They used to be a Surf Rock band and now they are strange" A minority of people, (it seemed), were aware of the band's change in direction and basically liked the ideas, but the majority of people, THEN!...(and not so much in the present), were on this kick to judge The Beach Boys. Just as Brian Wilson often expressed in interviews making reference to that particular kind of defeat.
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SteveG
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Posted: October 28 2014 at 09:41 |
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^I was not a super fan of the later BB's Todd, but this album, and the one that proceeded it titled Sunflower, were superb mellow rock albums and sadly underappreciated. I think people at the time, people were still hung up on the BB's past association with the early 60's surf sound and automatically bypassed these two gems.
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TODDLER
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Posted: October 28 2014 at 10:15 |
It's a shame Brian Wilson wasn't appreciated in 67' for "Smile". That's the obvious nightmare of his life with all the pressures on him from Capitol Records, all of the hours of avant-garde practices that went into the album, and then finally arrives a finalized decision to abandon the tapes? Wilson brought in a string quartet, utilized sound effects with unorthodox recording techniques + Tibetan horn with other strange unusual sounding instruments place in this bizarre musical. "The Fire Tapes" was an "offbeat" sort of project once Wilson began his departure into the " Elements". For some of the other pieces...he recorded sounds of water on to tape and focused on finding the perfect flow of water to later be added into a song. Beaver & Krause and Wendy Carlos were very keen on doing this. For the "Fire Tapes"...Wilson persuaded members of the band to wear "toy fire hats" while recording the piece and this made Van Dyke Parks uncomfortable. Originally he requested for members of the band to drop LSD. Then he had them put on the fire helmets and sit on top of a fire truck to cruise in the day. He was trying to persuade the band to understand a concept that would build around 1 of his pieces by having them live through it. Everything was already planted in Wilson's head and he knew exactly how to going about producing Smile. He was very persuasive. On "Wild Honey" there is a song titled "I'd Love Just Once To See You". In the song is a vocal part that is very reminiscent of a main vocal line in Syd Barrett's song "Vegetable Man". The vocal line: "Baaa...Ba, Ba, BA,...Ba, Ba, Ba. I find it very strange when I compare the 2. "Sail On Sailor" from Holland has the formula for a 10CC song extending to all areas of the evident details. If you want to get technical about it, try imagining Eric Stewart or Lol Creme singing the song instead. ..or listen to a 10CC album and then "Sail On Salior". There are so many recordings in where a based foundation of the Beach Boys is heard.
Edited by TODDLER - October 28 2014 at 13:02
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SteveG
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Posted: October 28 2014 at 14:14 |
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^Sorry Todd, but I think that Wilson was just too 'far out' during the whole Smile debacle with his living room turned into a giant sandbox and his other eccentricities. He went from avant garde to 'avant got a clue' in record time. The core of his songs may be masterful, but for me, that's as far as it goes except for the song Surfs Up on the record of the same name. Do you remember that Smile was originally supposed to be a comically based album with laughter and jokes interspersed between the tracks, which was the origin of the album's name, before that premise was abandoned? There was just too much weird stuff like that going on with him then, unfortunately.
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Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto?
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