The Turntable Aesthetics
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100092
Printed Date: April 25 2024 at 23:47
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Turntable Aesthetics
Posted By: Argonaught
Subject: The Turntable Aesthetics
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 16:05
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Folks, Speaking of the looks only, and without
delving into tech details and practicalities: what kind of (relatively)
mass-produced record players pleases your eyes the most?
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Replies:
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 17:03
Skipping the first picture...too vintage for me  . I always liked the look of the Technics SL1200 models and all those variations. The strobe platter, strobe light and other versions had the pop up cueing light. The S shaped tonearm and just the look was very "techy" and said "I sound damn good!" Those were work horses and proven by the DJs and scratch artists, Technics were the sought after tables. I always just had a problem with the aluminum platter...the "ping" noise. The newer designed TT that are a bit more eye-candy while incorporating a lot of sound dampening designs, now catch my eye...and ear. For sure a TT is a visual pc of gear and should have some aesthetic value, it moves and grooves...it should look good. And yes that Music Hall mmf-11.1 is my dream table at the moment, not custom, its a production table just top of the line for MH, made in Czechoslovakia, same factory that makes Pro-ject tables. I am saving all my pennies and mowing my neighbors lawns for extra cash....  -------------   
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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 17:29
I saw the other day some new TT models from Audio-Technica with
great design, somewhere between the SL1200 and modern categories.  |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 18:27
Yes the popular one is the AT-LP120 USB model, excellent value for an entry level table. It has all the features of a $1K table. It has a built in phono amp so its basically plug and play, or you can bypass it and use your own. Plus it spins at all 3 speeds, it performs above price point, you can also digitize your vinyl with it. -------------
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Meltdowner wrote:Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 18:41
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^ Is it that good? I saw it new on sale but I didn't know if it was worth it, because I read somewhere that direct drive TT's are worse than belt drive. Is it true? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 18:43
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The ATLP-120 is the spitting image of the SL1200 as far as the outward appearance and the layout, the only difference being a few extra (and unnecessary) buttons. Internally, for better or worse, there are a few differences, but we have agreed not to talk tech :) There are some other tables that, I suspect, are assembled at the same plant as the ATLP-120 :    |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 19:20
A turntable should be simple and elegant, something that Rega got right back in the 1970 with the Planar 2, a much-copied design that hasn't changed much in 40 years. ...although the design of the Rega was inspired by, if not copied from, an old Connoisseur turntable like the one I'm currently replinthing.
------------- What? |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 20:26
This is mine, a Pro-Ject Debut III with USB output. Nothing mind-blowing but I get a lotta mileage out of it. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 21:51
My dad is old school sound man and swore by Garrard. They did have great sound too. So this is always what first pops into my mind. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 23:12
Agreed, although I kind of miss the strobe thingy:) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 01:52
As an Engineer I never really got the strobe 'thingy'. To me putting a strobe and 'pitch' control on was like Technics admitting they could design a stable speed control circuit. Since later models were quartz-locked that of course means they probably couldn't. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 07:32
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^ In defense of the strobe, I respectfully submit that in the hifi turntable context it may have 2 engineering functions, important to some users: speed indication and speed accuracy verification. I have also used the strobe in a couple of different ways to satisfy my curiosity, but that's too much tech. And, of course, the strobe and pitch control capability has been put to good use by DJ's and those who wanted to play records at non-standard speeds. But I'll admit that aesthetically it's controversial. It could be a desirable design element to some, and annoying clutter to others. |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 07:39
I kind of got hooked on the "DD, S-arm and 1.5 gram tracking" doctrine 30+ years ago, but one day I'd love to lay my hands on a pre-1960s table, just for the heck of it. |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 07:47
You and Mr. Catcher10 are, therefore, the "contemporary turntable" guys .. duly noted
. But, what can I say - clarity and elegance will never go out of fashion. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 09:17
Of course I shall disagree. You can never have too much tech [talk] - a turntable is a piece of technical equipment and while many regard technical information as being an inconvenience, it is never-the-less an inconvenient truth that cannot be summarily brushed to one side, even for aesthetics. The strobe will only indicate when the platter is spinning at a fixed speed because that is its function and only purpose. It will not indicate what that speed is or whether it is accurate. As odd as it seems, the strobing does not denote any measure of accuracy or any absolute measure of platter-speed. Contrary to many apparently informative sounding articles explaining how it is possible to tell that the strobe-circuit needs "recalibrating", you cannot use the pitch-control to check the strobe accuracy; and similarly, you cannot use the strobe to check absolute speed accuracy of the platter or to indicate its actual rotational speed. The platter rim has a fixed number of dots and those are illuminated by a flickering light that has a fixed number of flashes per second. The clock that produces the strobe frequency is no more accurate than a similar clock used to control the motor speed - in fact in the Technics SL-1200 this is the same clock, generated from the same 4.19328MHz quartz crystal. Everything is phase-locked to the crystal and all speeds are derived from it, if the crystal drifts or is affected by temperature it will not affect stability of the "dots" nor will it affect the "zero" position of the pitch-control. Also, there is no means of calibrating or adjusting this 4.19328MHz quartz crystal frequency. If the crystal is off-frequency, then the platter will spin at the wrong speed and the strobe will flash at the same wrong speed so the dots will remain stationary. Certainly a DJ can use the pitch-control to adjust the speed at which a record is being played, and the strobe will indicate that the platter is no longer spinning at 33 1/3 rpm, but that is all it can do. ------------- What? |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:50
I actually still used one of these till about 1984 when it just wasn't worth maintaining anymore. Notice the stacking mechanism in the back. You could load up a few albums and they would automatically play. How many of you remember that? It fell out of favor because it wasn't good for the vinyl, plus you would only hear one side of each album. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 13:28
I had a BIC tt as a kid and had the stackable spindle....its why some plants pressed dbl albums as Disc 1 had Side 1/4 Disc 2 had Side 2/3, so when you flipped them over then Side 3 and 4 played. My version of The Who~Quadrophenia is like this. -------------
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 13:30
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I certainly remember record-changers (never liked them, though), and I have a few changer-friendly double albums that have sides A and C on one record and sides B and D on another, or something like this. I don't mind dragging myself across the room to flip the record every 20 minutes .. makes for a more engaging musical experience. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 14:23
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Dean is spot on with the speed/strobe feature on tables...they only tell you what is actually going on, right or wrong. You can adjust the speed using the pitch control...If you want to add or reduce pitch/speed and if that sounds better to you then go for it! There are outboard speed controllers you can buy that will hold speed constant and there is one dual device, a tachometer will read the platter speed to 0.001 accuracy and the PSU (power supply unit) will work in conjunction with the tach to maintain 33.333 I have heard the difference that can be made, it exists, what I think is the big reason to want one of these is if you have dirty or inconsistent power supply to your home, which screws up your AC motor. Interesting and I am looking into a set once I have some extra cash......  Here is the combo in action, no promoting from me just showing what technology is out there and also adding to the aesthetic coolness of turntable gear  -------------
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 16:30
Thanks for steering the the conversation back towards the subject line. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 17:59
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Well the mmf-11.1 (my dream table) has a built in speed controller, so I would not need a stand alone version, enhancing the aesthetic quality of all in one. I have never heard one of these custom tables....but they sure look rather neat.  -------------
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 19:30
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^ Stumptable? They could have the platter from wood as well .. would be cool to see the annual rings swirl :) I have just visited Amazon to look up the mmf-11.1, and its $4.5K tag stared at me. Looks like they add another grand for each extra plinth layer :) Also noticed the dust cover is huge - is it because it goes all the way down instead of sitting on the (upper) plinth's rim?
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 20:46
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If you inspect closely, the wood custom table is a modified Rega table. the platter, sub platter, motor housing and arm are all Rega. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 21:02
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And correct the mmf-11.1 has a list of $4K...but there is only one pc of gear in my system where I paid list price..everything is negotiable! Its my hobby and I save up for my gear, all paid in cash nothing financed or credit cards. I'd rather this, than have a hobby where the Harley-Davidson I wanted costs $35K....  -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 00:59
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I know there is no accounting for taste, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but that burr plinth is just butt ugly... it looks like you really can polish a turd. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 04:22
Wait until someone comes up with a dissertation on the superior vibration-canceling properties of this thing
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:31
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Maybe they ARE petrified turds, polished up dino krapp.......Museum quality -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:38
A very custom table.......looks like a VPI motor and acrylic platter -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 05:20
 That's slightly better in that it is aesthetically pleasing to the eye with no extraneous "decoration" I am often criticised for being overly technical when I discuss the 'aesthetics' of hifi design and for steering the discussion towards the technicalities of the design rather than the look of it, but for me hifi is technical and that goes hand-in-hand with the aesthetics. When the 'inner-workings' of are put on display that is purely for aesthetic purposes, all that technical engineering could be hidden away within the plinth so no one could see it - you don't need to see the dual flywheels and pulleys for them to do their job, you don't need to see the isolation cones for them to perform the task they are designed to do. In turntable design that technical engineering and the 'inner-workings' are the aesthetic, it is put on display so we can appreciate the engineering involved and not just to admire the craftsmanship of the build. There is an adage in fine-dining that says we eat with out eyes, and this has a parallel in hifi design - we hear with our eyes. The thing with aesthetics, aside from beauty being in the eye of the beholder, is that the look of something conveys a pleasurable feeling, and for lovers of hifi that means it has to look like it can do the job, even if it cannot. To this end when we see something that has lots of engineering and has a lot of mass in the plinth and platter we think it is doing the right job and that is aesthetically pleasing in its own right. People like chunky, heavy turntables because it feels right - a big mass is harder to vibrate than a light one so therefore it must be "a good thing" because the one thing that separates a good turntable from a so-so turntable is the lack of vibration (what we used to call "rumble" back in the days of steam). But when you analyse the system with a technical eye, looking at the sources of those vibrations and the paths they take through the various components it tells a different story. Also a big chunky platter has lots of mass so therefore has lots of inertia which means it is harder to alter its speed, improving speed stability, but that comes at a price, and that price is increased vibration. The thickness of the platter in that turntable above is pure aesthetics of course, with the purpose of the VPI dual-flywheel is to increase the overall mass (and inertia) of the spinning parts so thus improves torque and speed-stability and to therefore reduces the mass of the platter while maintaining the overall inertia in the drive-system. This enables the platter to be as light as possible so less strain and wear is present in the spindle bearing and so less vibration is "held" in the platter itself. The triple belts give that aesthetic feeling that all the motor torque is being transferred to the platter, and fortunately that is true from a technical aspect too (so even I am aesthetically pleased to see them there). The height of the plinth is also more for aesthetics than of any practical value, the mass of that much timber creates an immoveable object to any vibration created in the spindle bearing so nothing is transferred through the mass into the isolation cones and (unfortunately) it remains in the platter to be picked-up by the tone arm. As I said earlier, it is harder to vibrate a large mass than it is a small one, so any bearing noise now takes the path of least resistance, and that is into the platter. To see what I mean, compare that to the Music Hall MMF-11.1 Argonaut showed on the previous page, here in side view so you can see the plinth in detail:  So rather than have one heavy base, the MMF-11.1 has four lightweight plinths stacked one on top of the other - the tonearm is mounted on the top plinth, isolated from the spindle-bearing that is mounted on the second from top plinth and the motor and flywheels are mounted on the bottom plinth, with the third intermediate plinth providing complete decoupling of vibration from the motor to the platter. The isolation in each plinth is now accomplished by Sorbothane pads to prevent vibration from being transmitted between each plinth, whereas cones would transfer the vibration from one to the other and defeat the object. To a technical-eye this is more aesthetically pleasing because each component part is there for a valid technical reason and that can only add to the aesthetic. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 09:49
^ All makes total sense what Dean wrote above....I agree we do not need to see the guts of any gear. Take for example tube audio gear, the trend now is to design so the actual tube is towards the front of the gear and either glass or plexiglass or the like is used so the user can see the tube lit up in action, or better yet the norm is for the tubes to be 100% exposed on the top of the base.....aesthetics or eye-candy. These are cool looking though....so  -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 10:26
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^ I remember making amplifiers (and much more besides) just like that back in the 70s ... of course then we'd slot that open chassis into a 19" rack or a wooden or metal box, but the basic construction technique of mounting the valve (tube) bases on a sheet of bent steel chassis along with the power supply and two output transformers remains the same. Working on the principle 'if you've got it, flaunt it' I don't mind the current trend of making the chassis the final thing and foregoing the nice walnut veneered box, the only issue I have with it (and that McIntosh 275 is a good bad-example), is the valve (tube) layout is often now arranged for aesthetic looks rather than optimum circuit performance (i.e. the triodes are all in a neat single row) - but that's only a minor irritation - if I had £4000 to blow on an amp, and could do so without risk of divorce, I most surely would. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:16
Ha...£4000 is nothing.....Try the LM-1 212 mono-block from Line Magnetic at about USD25,000.00......Certainly zero WAF (wife acceptance factor) points.....Butt ugly, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. Although LM does make some nice gear, sound and looks...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:39
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My first turntable was a brand I don't recall, but it had speakers attached in a fold down configuration. My second was a Dual in a wood box frame, that was pretty cool. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 11:44
There is a small technical advantage to having the tubes ("valves") and the power transformer exposed to unrestricted air movement: better natural cooling. The well-liked large tubes generate an enormous amount of heat. I had a single-ended amp with two KT-66s, and it in a couple of years gradually scorched the pine shelf 10" (250 mm) directly above it
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 12:34
Yup, valves (tubes) will do that all right, but in or out of a box the result would have been the same, heat rises. The four EL34s in a Marshall head run at 100W in a confined space made from wood, I've yet to see one spontaneously combust Heat management is a design issue, it should never be an operational one, valves are designed to run hot and dissipate through convection rather than conduction, (however I have seen valves cooled through conduction but those weren't your average work-a-day KT-66s or EL34s ). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 15:54
Even a well-designed enclosure introduces a mechanical barrier; as such, it will (somewhat) restrict both convection and the ingress of ambient air. Also, heat dissipates by radiation; an enclosure - unless it's very, very black inside - would bounce back some of the heat flux, emitted by the "thermionic device".
Like a large magnetron?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 29 2014 at 05:20
I was referring to the dissipation from the glass tube rather than the anode itself, but you are correct I should have said radiation and convection and since some of that radiant heat is conducted into the chassis then there is a degree of conduction as well, albeit to a lesser degree. But as I said, heat management is a design issue, if the amp is designed to work in a box then consideration of heat flow would have dealt with at the design stage, and that includes any chimney effect created by the box itself (which of course doesn't happen when the chassis is run out of the box).
Well, no. I have seen (and worked on) water-cooled magnetrons in radar equipment, but I meant high-power tetrodes and pentodes with external anodes used in high-power amps and radio transmitters. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 04 2015 at 17:17
| ^ how is your super-table project moving along, Santa? |
Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:42
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I'm surprised no one has posted the Mitchel Gyrodeck, the one from, 'A Clockwork Orange'....! ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:47
^ We talked about it recently on the Vinyl thread  |
Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:50
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Okay thanks M. ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:51
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^ but, my friend, it's right here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=96107&PN=59 |
Posted By: Roxbrough
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:54
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Thank you A. Fancy advising me on my cartridge upgrade? ------------- Live Long and Prosper |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 13:55
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^^ Damn, we posted 13 pages in less than a month? |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 14:33
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^ that's Mr. Catcher with his 12 megapixel images of dust cover-less turntables 
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 13 2015 at 14:57
Excuse me  ........11.75megapixels, thank you very much! -------------
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 13:04
Just scored this from an estate sale online auction. $110 CDN ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 15:10
Nice JD! A 606 very nice DD table, careful with cartridge matching as this is a low mass arm, probably need to stick with carts in the mid-weight range, no more than 7-8g probably. Have fun! -------------
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 15:40
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^Yeah, I've been reading up on it. Growing up I always wanted a Dual but couldn't afford it. Then as I got older and the vintage stuff became more in demand...I couldn't afford it. Now I lucked out seeing this one and BINGO...I can afford it. I now have three turntables, Hitachi PS12, a Sansui (can't remember the model but something like an SR-525) and now my Dual 606. I think I'll gift the Hitachi to my son, I bought it when I was 15. It took almost a month to save up for it at the time. The Sansui I got at a local opportunity shop for $10 and it was in mint condition. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 16:04
Here's my Turntable brought it new in 1985 and is still going strong. Mantra Manticore   Mine has still got the Mission tonearm it came with and is presently running a new Denon DL103 MC cart, previously had a Grado Signature 8M MI cart on it that I've had for years with a few stylus changes.
------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 16:14
I have a Goldring like this one k: |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 22 2016 at 16:32
I have a Music Hall mmf-7.1, upgraded with the all carbon fibre 9cc tonearm, I use a Herbies Way Excellent II 4mm mat and a Lyra Delos MC cartridge.  -------------
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Posted By: Jamy
Date Posted: October 23 2016 at 07:32
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I recently watched Wim Wenders Road Trilogy. The truck driver had his precious 45rpm collection on the truck seat and was playing a 45 by SLIDING it into this maybe 8X8 inch player! This german film would be early-70s and cd players not yet in the public. I never heard of a portable 45 player of this sort.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: October 27 2016 at 10:23
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My first proper one was a Dual that had a wood frame. Haven't had a functional one in years. Still have all my top shelf LPs though. Alas the bottom shelf which was mostly stuff I had replaced with CD were ruined in a flood. No pics. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: ColonelClaypool
Date Posted: October 27 2016 at 13:29
I have one of these. Nothing fancy, an affordable entry level turntable but it looks good. I've replaced the felt mat with leather, though. ------------- With magic, you can turn a frog into a prince. With science, you can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 27 2016 at 15:19
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My current table......Onkyo cp-1046f direct drive quartz fully automatic sadly the auto feature doesn't work anymore....time for a new one.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 27 2016 at 15:32
"...time for a new one..." Get the Clearaudio Statement, she is a beautiful pc of engineering marvel, weighs in at about 350Kg and will only set you back about US150K   -------------
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Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: October 27 2016 at 16:02
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Get two always good to have back up and spares............ ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 29 2016 at 14:01
 ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: October 29 2016 at 15:17
It has a wringer washing machine look about it   Wonder if it washers records also................... ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 09:47
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^Meaning Good Clean Sound no doubt! ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: November 06 2016 at 21:25
Very clean ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 06 2016 at 23:07
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Well, it certainly looks better than that fug-ugly turntable. ------------- What? |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: November 06 2016 at 23:21
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And washes clothes too ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |