Starless and Bible Black: King Crimson
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100106
Printed Date: April 27 2024 at 16:42
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Topic: Starless and Bible Black: King Crimson
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Starless and Bible Black: King Crimson
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:10
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One of my favs from KC that's more accessible when I'm not in the mood for the complexity of LTIA (as great as it is) and is a perfect set up for Red. What's your take on SaBB? |
Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 09:14
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My take is it's a 4 star album for sure but then I'm a KC fan. Great Deceiver and Nightwatch are 2 of my favorite tracks by them. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:02
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Its perfect to my ears. I prefer it to LTIA it seems (as I too spin it more often) + its got Fracture. ------------- 
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Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:12
im actually trying to get into this album alot on Youtube, though right now it's mainly The Great Deceiver, Lament*, The Night Watch, and Fracture* that are getting me for now ("*" represents my faves at the moment). the main reason for this is that alot of the studio material is getting brought down by Youtube, which sucks. the only way to listen is to actually buy them, mainly through online (which my parents are not big fans of which makes sense). awwwww, man......  if you can't already tell, i've now become a KC fan for a few months now, but only for their 70's stuff (FOR NOW!!!! IM GOING BY ERA EVEN THOUGH I KNOW OTHER TRACKS FROM THEIR LATER PERIODS!!!!!!!)------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:14
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A lesser album from their 70's output. Does not really click with me anyway. If I should rate it, I may round it up to 3 stars when I'm in a good mood. ------------- 
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:25
For what it's worth, KC albums on cd are among the easiest prog rock records you're ever going to come across, maybe except for Floyd. This usually means that they often wind up in the discount bin (at least where i live). Anyways, it'll be Christmas in no time and KC just might be the only sort of prog your family is likely to find  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Michael678 wrote:Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:42
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I've always had trouble getting into it. Always vastly preferred LTiA. |
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:52
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A great Crimson album with so many great songs: Great Deceiver, Night Watch, Trio, Fracture, Lament. Most of the material work better live than studio in my ears. ------------- "Hey there, Dog Man, now I drink from your bowl." |
Posted By: bloodnarfer
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 11:00
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I enjoy it almost as much as lark's tongues and more than Red ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ramza1316" rel="nofollow - www.last.fm/user/ramza1316 https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/user/1211221845 |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 11:07
Pretty much this. I recently bought a vinyl copy of it, which made me reinvestigate and I honestly haven't looked back since. I even love the title track with all of it's meandering improvisation. Took me a little while to get there, but now it's one of my faves on the album. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 13:39
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4/5 stars for me. I find the improvs to be hit and miss, but I can't condemn King Crimson for going that route if they can get some good stuff out of it. It's amazing that they formed "Trio" out of thin air like that. In fact, I think I'll try to find the Great Deceiver sets to see if they had any other neat improvs. There's also some little stuff I like. I like the call and response between Cross' violin and Fripp's guitar in the first half of "Lament" and Bruford's destructo-march in the second half, the proto-80's-era sound of "The Great Deceiver" and the sheer beauty of "The Night Watch". "Fracture" is probably the one I have the most fond memories of, reminding me of the Pomeranian that my family used to own barking her little head off to Bruford's chime section. Don't get me wrong, "Fracture" itself holds up very well on its hold and is a tour-de-force of Fripp's guitar work, plus the rest of the band does a fantastic job complementing the piece. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Fearabsentia
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 14:25
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It's my personal favorite KC album along with 'The Power to Believe'. I find it complex, yet easily enjoyable. It has a good balance of catchy heavy rock songs like 'The Great Deceiver' and 'Lament', and more complex compositions like 'We'll Let You Know' and 'Fracture'. I think it's their most underrated album.
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Posted By: jayem
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 16:04
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S&BB felt like being inside of a building where theres's a dark cavern, some abandoned labos with spineless, slow enormous insects with human skin inside. Red = less nervous and playful, but "assured". Thanks to Providence, without which Red would lack of substance, we can enjoy a last surge of thrilling tension before the dusky Starless, intense also but with less tension. LTIA-S&BB-Red : I could judge each album from the technical stance, the overall balance or structures at every level, or the general mood, but instead I prefer to consider them like three parts of one same "story". As for the live albums that came later, some great improvs, but no other improv sound better than the edited improvs on S&BB and Red, Fripp talks being the bonus ------------- http://www.digger.ch/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - Support mine-clearing ! https://bandcamp.com/machinechance/?lang=en" rel="nofollow - bandcamp collection |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:16
It's got "The Great Deceiver", "Lament" and "Fracture" so it can only be a hit! 
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:22
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You can't go wrong with this era of Crimson! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:26
+1 -------------   
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:30
Dude really?? Buy the music  ......at minimum go to Amazon or other and buy the mp3 download files. Don't use your parents credit cards, get a prepaid Visa/MC...do chores for cash and reload the card.  -------------
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:36
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There are no mp3s of KC for sale anywhere. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:53
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Straless & Bible Black is certainly not the finest KC album but on its own merits, it remains the one I am most fond of. I remember the day I got it (it was my bday and my lovely French girlfriend at the time put it in my hands ) and the same impression I had then in 1974 is still effervescing today. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 17:59
Hated it the first time I listened and really liked it the second time. I'm curious to know what's my opinion the next time I listen  |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 19:02
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4 star album that I adore, just behind LTiA and Red of the 72 to 74 block, but then I'm fanboy ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 19:05
This  . Even if more "difficult" than either LTiA or Red, it does have one of the best openers in the history of music - the marvellous "The Great Deceiver", in my view Wetton's finest hour as a singer. |
Posted By: Fearabsentia
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 19:10
Agreed, one of the best songs on the album
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 20:30
hah. From the viewpoint a relative non-fan of the group, appreciate them however I enjoy their peers much more, I'd say one of the best and catchiest they did. Though the Belew albums have grown on me substantially the last few years. Probably because of the Talking Head influence and Belew himself. Raff always loved this group more than I did...but that song... I am ALL over it and ready to crank that at full volume. Pure adrenaline |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 00:28
About getting The Great Deceiver, you should just know that many of the improvs with different names are actually about the same piece of music. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 00:36
| This one is a tough nut to crack, probably my least listened to Crimso album from the 70's. I think it doesn't flow as well as their other albums, but still, when I'm in the mood, I think it can move mountains..... |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 12:18
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OK, so I just gave this is a spin. Still can't make too much of a fuss - Fracture is absolutely outstanding as always, the rest of it is OK but nothing I can get too excited about. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 12:55
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Originally the 2 tracks.."Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture" were taken from the concert in Amsterdam at the "Concertgebouw" 11/23/73. They are available on "The Nightwatch" cd. On S.A.B.B. there are not many overdubs as you might think. When listening to the "Nightwatch' cd...they sound identical. Not many Crimheads realized in 74' that they were listening to live tracks from Amsterdam Concertgebouw. "Starless and Bible Black" is an improv which revolves around the tri-tone interval and creates more of a dark soundscape than a cluster of rapid notes one might hear from the tri-tone interval in Larks Tongues In Aspic Part I. "Fracture" creates the same vibe of darkness within the music , except it builds on a progressive pattern that is evident within the composition and is less improvised in that manner.
Some of the instrumental patterns are to create a supernatural presence in a room. Even if you feel something of the unexplained that is personally laughable, the band is still vamping on a few chord structures that reveal eerie thoughts or visions to the mind. This interpretation is evident because Robert Fripp had an interest in the occult. The darkness of the album is attributed to his mindset or personal interests at that time. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 13:01
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^Whenever you post something here the Prog Archives becomes a whole lot more interesting, TODDLER. Thanks for sharing. -------------
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 13:03
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 15:45
Wow..thank you. That never entered my mind. I always think that whatever I'm pointing out, is information that most P.A. members are already aware of. I've learned so much from others on this site. I greatly appreciate it.
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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: October 29 2014 at 21:57
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I feel (probably just me) but i hear on this album Fripps facination for Mahavishnu Orchestra, ( or probably that was stronger/ more evident on Lizard) but i sence it here also, maybe its the guitar tone. -------------  
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 30 2014 at 08:15
It's very true that Fripp was highly influenced by Mahavishnu Orchestra. It can be read about in the Great Deceiver booklet included in the box set. In the case of Lizard...I hear more of an Avant-Garde British Jazz oriented approach that is in a complete separate world from the composition of Mahavishnu Orchestra. Lizard was more in the vain of Centipede who release an album produced by Fripp titled "Septober Energy"...and Centipede included on board Keith Tippet who recorded with K.C. on the early sessions. It's more combined with that approach musically than anything John McLaughlin would have written short of Exploration. A horn player or 2 from Soft Machine sat in for the Lizard sessions. Lizard is closer to sounding like the improvisation on a Soft Machine album and Centipede than Mahavishnu, but you are SPOT ON..with the Mahavishnu influence being obvious on S.A.B.B. |
Posted By: Kentucky_Hawkwindage
Date Posted: October 30 2014 at 19:14
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SABB is in my top three KC albums.The Great Deceiver-possibly my favorite KC song ever. ------------- "Nobody's Gonna Change My World That's Something To Unreal" Lyrics that i live my life by-from Black Sabbath's Technical Ecstasy's track You Won't Change Me |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 01:40
| ^ Cigarettes, Ice-Cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary........ |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 13:19
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"Fracture" was a very strange idea that musically told a story. It's an arrangement around a repeated series of specific notes that fade and return throughout the piece. Fripp created this type of writing from various sources inspiring him to repeat some of the same sequences heard on Larks, Starless, and Red. He wrote several pieces to perform live that never turned up on the studio albums. If they had been recorded ...it would have been a great idea to include them as bonus tracks. I believe RED would have been an even better album if studio recordings of 'Journey To The Center Of The Cosmos' and "Doctor Diamond" were to be included as bonus tracks. I remember S.A.B.B. being released in America and King Crimson playing many colleges/universities across the states. I don't believe people in general were ready for King Crimson. Many people remembered the early music of K.C., but responded as if this new approach of schizoid style improvisation was over the top. This attitude developed mainly within a majority of YES fans. I thought it was a strange and rude reaction to S.A.B.B. in 74'. Whenever I played the album for friends who liked YES, they treated it like it was entertainment through pain. At the YES concerts in Philadelphia, people stood in line and tossed back and forth a debate over which band was more melodic being critical about King Crimson and dismissing them as noise makers. For some reason I feel that attitude reflected upon their success in the U.S. or their inability to reach more people with their music. Decades later..people began to grow appreciation for S.A.B.B., but in the beginning it wasn't that acceptable to most Progressive Rock fans.
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