Did Genesis release the first neo-prog album?
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Topic: Did Genesis release the first neo-prog album?
Posted By: fudgenuts64
Subject: Did Genesis release the first neo-prog album?
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 18:15
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I know they usually are credited to being the band neo-prog bands are influenced by, but was Genesis a neo-prog band themselves in the late 70s? Possibly proto-neo-prog? Listen to some tracks on Wind and Wuthering or And Then There Were Three, even Trick. A lot of stuff is VERY similar to what bands like Marillion and IQ would be doing just years later. Can we say Genesis went from Bee Gee's rip off to symphonic prog masters to neo-prog founders to the most successful prog pop outfit in the 80s and beyond? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 18:58
Neo-prog was a label that wasn't even derived till (the late?) '80s. It was just a way of categorizing the second wave of progressive rock bands, IMO, i.e. those who weren't the pioneers whose careers stretched as far back as the '60s. Genesis was just doing what they were doing. (Fish was also influenced by Peter Hammill.) ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
fudgenuts64 wrote:Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 19:05
| It's probably easier to say that those three albums - Trick, W&W and ATTWT - were essentially a starting template for what Marillion, Pendragon, I.Q etc all started doing years later. There's plenty of qualities on those three albums that would become trademark Neo elements later on. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 19:16
I think the problem, and confusion, with the term neo-prog is that it's come to represent bands that are 'Neo-Genesis'. In other words, prog bands that formed in the eighties and were heavily influenced or almost totally influenced by Genesis. Even PA's definition of neo-prog says as much. The fine details seem to be exactly when the term came into being, which I always felt was a snub to eighties bands like Solstice, who couldn't be more different from Genesis if they tried. (The original version of the band did not even have a resident keyboard player!  . That's how different they were. They were folk based, with a fiddle player and a shredding guitarist.) So, I've always been a little unhappy with the term neo-prog, but it's all we have to work with.
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 20:09
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I guess the Hackett and early Collins/Banks albums could be considered proto-neo. Spectral Mornings, Saga, Silent Cries and Mighty Echoes, and Camel's post-Rain Dances albums are mentioned as other big influences on neo on neo's page, so that's even more. I'd only call it all proto at most. And as for first full neo-prog album, Twelfth Night's Live At The Target.
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Posted By: Surrealist
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 23:25
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Neo Prog is poppy Prog? Then Neo Prog is what killed Prog. All the great Prog bands stopped making quality Albums. "Love Beach", enough said. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 24 2014 at 23:34
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^ Coming in to Love Beach in 1988, after my first ELP album, Pictures, then BSS, wasn't so bad. Sure I perceived the change of sound and shorter, snappier tracks, but my (Karn Evil) first impression wasn't so bad of it. And to this day I can only cringe at the lyrics (which I thought were cool when I was 16). The music is fine with me. I thought that Saga's debut was the first sign of what was to become this whole Neo rigmarole....... |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 01:23
I don't agree with this because a) it is entirely instrumental, and there's a space rock factor present; and b) Twelfth Night, besides Solstice, were one of the 80s UK bands that didn't sound like Wind/Trick-era Genesis. This is particularly apparent with Geoff Mann's writing and singing style. I believe the consensus on the first proper neo album is that it's either Marillion's Script or IQ's Tales From The Lush Attic. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 01:27
Early Saga was influenced as much by Styx, Queen and Gentle Giant as much as Yes, ELP and (to a lesser extent) Genesis. No doubt that's why they're classified as Crossover Prog on PA. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 01:51
| Genesis and UK were the bands that pointed towards the future for prog. Neo prog is just future prog where there is a more direct approach with keyboards adding texture rather than being at the front of the music. There is also this move away from symphonic stylings which became very obvious about 1978. That all said the first generation of neo prog bands were creating their own version of symphonic prog when you think of Marillion - Grendel and IQ - The Last Human Gateway. So neo didn't just happen because the bands heard ATTWT and thought 'lets copy that'. The likes of Mark Kelly , Clive Nolan and Martin Orford were well aware of the whole prog scene and most likely saw what they were doing as being derived from the classic prog scene and not what came later. It was just that neo evolved (or devolved if you prefer) into something that was a bit like late seventies Genesis although I think that UK debut is a closer match personally. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 02:49
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If by Neo-Prog we mean Symphonic Prog which was more accessible, stripped from the extremes it reached with stuff like Tales From Topographic Oceans, then I guess that yes, A Trick Of The Tail was a clear shift by one of the top and most influential symphonic bands, in just one album from the complexity of The Lamb to the accessibility of Trick (even if Dance On A Volcano is anything but accessible), which gave a signal to the musicians who would form the next generation of bands for a possible direction to follow. I think that another element which contributed to the appearance of what we now call the Neo-Prog sound was the technical evolution of the instruments, the shift from the Hammond and Mellotron backgrounds with Minimoog leads into the new sounds of the digital synths, the possibility to include electronic drums etc.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 03:26
| No, Genesis didn't released "the first neo-prog album", because they weren't started as a band in e.g. 1980 |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 04:08
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I think one fundamental difference between classic prog and neo, is the absence, or almost absence, in neo, of acoustic instruments. With that in mind, Genesis maybe made the transition to proto neo (  ) with the departure of Steve Hackett, who was important for the acoustic element. (No "Blood On The Rooftops" intro on the post-Hackett Genesis albums).But it's a process, and yes, I suppose mid-period Genesis was very influential towards neo. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 08:27
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I think I have to defer to my previous post to clarify this posted question. If neo-prog is defined as "Neo-Genesis" by everyone in the rock media world, then how can Genesis be neo-prog? Simply stated, how can the originator also be a follower? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 08:30
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you guys are making my head hurt. Until I joined this forum i'd only heard the terms prog-rock or art-rock. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 08:37
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^Get a big bottle of aspirin, it only gets more complex from here on. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 08:42
| i'm just going to refer to all of it the way I always do: 'My comfort music' |
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 09:36
Good point. Consensus I've seen likes to include Twelfth Night in talks of early neo, and then that's a big reason why Eloy gets mentioned as an influence. I guess calling Twelfth Night neo comes down to what you consider influences on the bands aside from Genesis, if that's thought to be proper. I was never really one to call Eloy proto-neo myself, I just knew others did.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 10:12
It's common for Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Twelfth Night, Solstice, Pendragon and even Jadis (who took a bit longer getting their first album out, but they opened for Pendragon in the mid-'80s!) as the forerunners of Neo-Prog. I don't really mind, it's a label, just like Third Wave is the unofficial label of the bands that began showing up in the '90s. Eloy indeed shifted their sound quite a bit with albums like Performance and Metromania, which to me sound like a melding of Planet P Project, Tangerine Dream, and (of course) Floyd. I love Eloy, so it's all good to me. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 10:13
Or get into the heavy stuff like coffee and caffeine.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 10:20
Steve, I believe the correct terminology for "after-Gabriel, Collins/Trick influenced prog bands" would be Post-primal, neo-natal pseudo-Genesis. Or P2N2PG, acronmally speaking. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 11:46
Yea sadly most "Neo-Prog" bands sound like nothing more than "not Genesis" to me. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 12:29
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I've always regarded 'Entangled' as the first real Neoprog song but to call "A Trick of the Tail" the first Neo album is a bit of a stretch. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: Xonty
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 12:59
| I think ATOTT in particular is definitely quite like Marillion/Neo-Prog, but really a predecessor. Script For A Jester's Tear is the first and best entirely neo-prog album. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 13:10
So much of a stretch, indeed, that it would be a member of The Fantastic Four. The whole notion of Genesis being a Neo prog band is preposterous. At the risk of repeating myself endlessly, all neo Prog was was another name for the new wave of Prog that started in England in the '80's, influenced primarily by, but not exclusively, Genesis and Yes. It is no more possible for Genesis to be a neo prog band than it is for me to be a calf rearing mastodon. Really.................. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:04
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I think Genesis probably originated more styles than any other prog band, that's why you would raise this question. ELP with Pirates wasn't that different than Brain Salad Surgery, even though Pirates has some innovations, it was still the ELP style. Emerson had his polyphonic synth, and so the texture was radically different, and he was in some new modes. You can still hear some similar harmonies with a song like The Sheriff, modally. Genesis from Nursery Cryme really had a lot of uniqueness, and then when they hit Trick of the Tail from ATTWT, probably because of Hackett's coming of age, they created a whole new style in prog, almost like a bubble gum very early King Crimsom. I realize Hackett wasn't on ATTWT but it seemed to have his afterglow, no pun intended, which eventually faded out but still remained in the Hackett solo works. I'm not sure where they went after that, but Abacab had some nice strong "new wave prog" things going on. You might say they influenced a third style in doing this. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:05
Just say no Steve ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:16
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Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:49
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No. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:51
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^John said Yoko said the word yes and it changed his life forever! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 14:54
"Neo-prog" is a rather goofy term. There is really nothing new about it, except for the digitally sterile sound that permeates much of it. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 15:00
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: November 25 2014 at 15:56
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Sorry SteveG, that was actually directed at Steve Lazland's 'calf rearing mastodon' comment, I couldn't actually find any suitable pictured of mastodon's herding cattle so I went with that. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 06:03
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this band might be a contender (the roumers sais so) -------------  
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 06:48
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I think Genesis was moving neo-symph. Marillion took the cue and created neo-prog.
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:01
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No such thing as Neo Prog..... Symphonic Progressive Rock.....1st Impression (1968-1977) 2nd Impression 1978-1985 3rd 1986 - 1999 and the glorious 4th from 2000 - now..... Lets hope that the seriously LONG tracks are about to be realised......The 5-day test of prog is yet to be released !!!
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 17:23
| I don't go along with ATOTT or W&W as Neo. However, Second Home By the Sea always struck me as having a Neo quality, and by that time they were kind of imitating themselves (sporadically for the purpose of placating what old fans there were left) the way Neo imitated them. |
Posted By: SquonkHunter
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 18:40
Interesting way to put it but there is much truth in it. ------------- "You never had the things you thought you should have had and you'll not get them now..." |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 20:41
Nice quote indeed !
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Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 04:46
Hear, hear!!  |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:28
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Neo-prog is one of the most absurd musical genre terms I can think of....There are a few other ones if you look under the definitions page, but for sure this one takes the cake. Genesis is Genesis music, Marillion is Marillion music with some influence from Genesis....I don't understand what is so complicated about that. -------------   
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:38
^Got me, Jose. I'm not sure why this thread went on for so long, so here goes:Neo-Prog definitionNeo-Progressive rock (more commonly "Neo-Prog") is a subgenre of Progressive Rock that originally was used to describe artists strongly influenced by the classic symphonic prog bands that flourished during the 1970s. At the beginning of the neo-prog movement, the primary influence was early to mid-70's Genesis. Debate over when Neo-Prog actually came into being often takes place, with some asserting it began with Marillion's Script for a Jester's Tear in 1983. Others contend it began with Twelfth Night at the dawn of the 80s, while some even suggest the popular symphonic prog band Genesis gave rise to Neo-Prog with their 1976 album, A Trick of the Tail. If one analyses the progressive movement just before 1980, then some albums which heavily influenced the Neo-Prog movement easily come to mind: Steve Hackett - Spectral Mornings, Genesis - Wind & Wuthering, Genesis - And Then There Were Three, Genesis - Seconds Out, Saga - Saga, all the Camel albums between Breathless and The Single Factor included, and some Eloy's albums, especially Silent Cries And Mighty Echoes. This new form of progressive rock originated in the UK, and is most strongly associated with bands such as Marillion, Pendragon and IQ; and while theatrical stage antics were a part of the live performances of many artists exploring this subset of the progressive rock genre it's the musical elements that are key to the genre; typified by the use of atmospheric guitar and synth soloing with symphonic leanings, with a tendency towards floating synth layers and dreamy soloing. An additional trait is the use of modern synths rather than vintage analogue synths and keyboards. The main reasons for Neo-Progressive artists to be separated from the ones exploring Symphonic Prog in the first place are the above, as well as a heavier emphasis on song-form and melody than some of their earlier symphonic counterparts. As time went by other artists appeared that also deviated from the norms created by the classic wave of progressive rock artists in the 70's. The late 70's had given the world punk music; the 80's gave the world new wave; and the 90's grunge. These, as well as other forms, had a tremendous amount of influence outside of the progressive rock realm. The advent of the modern synth also inspired artists like Tomita, Vangelis and Kitaro to explore dreamier musical works. These and other forms of more or less newly made musical genres influenced artists exploring progressive rock as well. Although many artists did so within the framework of 70's progressive rock, more and more artists developed a sound and style so heavily influenced by these more recent musical developments that categorizing them within the existing subgenres of progressive rock became increasingly difficult. While the Neo-Progressive genre initially consisted of artists exploring a modernized version of Symphonic Prog, these days artists coined as Neo-Progressive cover a multitude of musical expressions, where the common denominator is the inclusion - within a progressive rock framework - of musical elements developed just prior to and after 1980. The Neo-Progressive genre in it's refined form thus covers a vast musical territory, to some extent covering all existing subsets of progressive rock and also searching out towards genres as different as new age on one side and punk and metal on the other. (taken from Prog Archives) |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 14:55
^ Quite different from the definition when I registered at Prog Archives ("amel"):
https://web.archive.org/web/20060828214915/http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=18" rel="nofollow - https://web.archive.org/web/20060828214915/http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=18 I look at Neo-Prog as being a movement more than a genre per se. As others have said, Genesis could not have released the first true Neo-Prog album as thee band was from the classic progressive rock movement, not the "Prog revival" which drew inspiration from Genesis. I have no problem with the Neo-Prog category, or any others at PA (I'd like more categories). From http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Neo-Prog/" rel="nofollow - http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Neo-Prog/ :
So RYM lists the Twelfth Night [aka The Electra Tape, Second Tape Album] release as the first Neo-Prog album. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:14
Except it's hardly an album: it's a self-released four-song cassette they sold at shows, with two on each side. Side A 1. The Cunning Man 2. Afghan Red Side B 1. Abacus 2. Keep The Aspidistra Flying Live at the Target really is their proper first album. It was issued on vinyl in 1981, and it's entirely instrumental. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:02
For me the medium, length, method of release and distribution is not that important-- more important would be the qualities of the actual compositions on the "album" (and I wouldn't call it that short a release). The only composition I've heard off it is the version of the longest listed at the bottom of this post. The Cunning Man 5:43 Afghan Red 11:23 Abacus 7:20 Keep the Aspidistra Flying 7:35 |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:50
OMG...no more categories........although this does apply  -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 18:49
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Well, really I'd prefer album tagging similar to progfreak to make searches easier (while still keeping master categories). I'd love to be able to easily search for all albums labelled jazz, psych, and electronic. That would require significant work and new search functions. Category groupings have made finding music that I will like easier, and also made it easier to avoid some music. Some at PA have said that we should do away with all the categories as it's all music. Yeah, it's all music but categorisation improves an archive and makes research much easier. Imagine going to a rock archive and finding that all the various types of rocks and minerals are dumped in the same box -- sedimentary mixed with igneous etc. Not that you're making that point, so I'll get off my soapstone box. One category that I'd like is an album-based category (that could be an addition to the Various Artists category) where we could readily include albums deemed prog by artists that are overwhelmingly deemed non-prog, or something like that... For instance, I've wanted an artist called William Sheller added, but mostly for one prog album. He isn't in because of greater discography concerns. Oh, and of course we should have a Booty Prog category.  Butt I digress. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 09:26
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Sorry, but what has all of this discussion to do with the posted question? I'll state this fact again. Early neo-prog was based on groups influenced by Genesis, so how can Genesis possibly be considered neo-prog? This would be akin to asking if the philosophical school of Neo-Platonism was the first school of Platonism when the original school existed 500 years before. You simply cannot put the cart before the horse no matter how hard some member's try. Amazing. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 11:19
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Sorry Steve, I thought that that issue had already been sufficiently addressed, and the thread could move on. As I wrote in my first post in this topic:
What does the the rest have to do with the topic? Those are asides and digressions. I've never been of the "discussion in threads must strictly adhere to the original topic" camp. Those tend to fizzle out faster than ones where people feel free to let their hair down and associate ideas. With the first forum I used, we didn't quote eachother, and each post responded to the former post in the thread. Personally, I prefer that, as the progression from one post to the next is more natural to me -- like the way that I talk with friends and family in real life. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 13:29
If the question had been posed with quotation marks around 'neo prog' would that have been okay? If we rule out Genesis can I rule in UK's debut album? That contained many of the elements of 'neo prog' ie pointing towards a new direction yet its not easy to pick up any direct influence in the neo prog scene. If not then they might qualify as a bridge between symph and neo at least.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 14:55
Which is why imho they should be called 'neo-symphonic prog'.
 ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:43
In answer to your question, identifying this topic as 'neo prog' would not help as the fault lies long ago with those that conjured up the definitions of Neo Prog by identifying and associating the sub genre with musical groups (nee Genesis) instead of merely saying that it was the revival of a once popular genre. When the Folk Revival erupted in both the U.S. and the U.K. in the early and mid sixties, the definition of the genre did not specify that all folk artists were trying to resurrect the genre and stating that it's influences were solely that of Woody Guthrie. It was simply folk music that was revived. Would it have been such a stretch for the eighties prog renaissance to have been simply called The 80's Prog Revival and left at that?
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Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:44
| Bee Gee's rip off? You're nuts, fudgenuts! |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:55
U.K. (just the first one) is kind of a unique animal thanks to Holdsworth. It has a symph/jazz split personality. I've never seen it compared or likened to neo-prog. What about Pallas' Arrive Alive? While it has several incarnations, its earliest issue was 1981. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:56
In answer to your question, identifying this topic as 'neo prog' would not help as the fault lies long ago with those that conjured up the definitions of Neo Prog by identifying and associating the sub genre with musical groups (nee Genesis) instead of merely saying that it was the revival of a once popular genre. When the Folk Revival erupted in both the U.S. and the U.K. in the early and mid sixties, the definition of the genre did not specify that all folk artists were trying to resurrect the genre and stating that it's influences were solely that of Woody Guthrie. It was simply folk music that was revived. Would it have been such a stretch for the eighties prog renaissance to have been simply called The 80's Prog Revival and left at that?
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 16:57
I do like that the sound of that. Martin Orford has also argued there is no such thing as Neo-prog, or that if there is, everything from 1980 onward is Neo. Or something like that. I don't recall his exact wording. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 01:36
I'm not saying it has a direct link but I can hear elements of it pushing prog in a new direction and some of those elements such as the atmosphere that Jobson created on a track like Alaska seem relevant to neo prog. I'm not well up on Pallas or Twelth Night although both were important to the early eighties prog scene.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 02:08
| For what it's worth, I think, having just listened, that Duke, was where this whole proto 'Neo' arrangement came into play...... |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 11:51
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I feel the absurd need to weigh in here if for no other reason than I'm partially responsible for characterizing bands as 'Neo Prog' or 'not Neo Prog'.
Neo started out as a reference to the 80's revival bands, Marillion, IQ, Pendragon and to a lesser extent Twelfth Night. Initially it was similar to Canterbury in that it was specific to a time and a place. But then it morphed. Marillion specifically took a drastic turn from the bombastic style of the Fish Era to the sweeping atmoshpere of the Hogarth Era. Pendragon grew into a much heavier sound as they moved forwards, IQ has continued to grow in intensity and production throughout the years. As the three prototypical bands changed their sounds and continued to stay on the edge of technology, the definition of Neo morphed along with the bands.
The main differences between Neo and Symphonic these days is in the instrumentation. While modern Symphonic still has a big focus on traditional instruments and sounds, Neo focuses much more on the progression of technology. In Neo, most of the Melotrons, the organs and the flutes have been replaced by the synth. The 12 strings and accoustic pickings have been mostly been replaced by flanged or delayed guitar effects. To sum, Neo is very much a subset of the Symphonic genre without the constraints of the traditional instrumentation. Obviously, this is all subject to opinion, but the first real Neo album was "Script for a Jester's Tear" because that was pretty much the first album that made people start thinking 'whoa, we need a name for this'. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 12:15
Aye and that name was Symphonic Progressive Rock - Phase II..... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 13:32
nice read that
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 14:45
How about Neo-Symphonic as Dr. Wu alluded to in his last post. I think the term neo-prog has had it's day. All who agree, say aye.
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Posted By: Walton Street
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 14:47
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or you need a new thread: Did Genesis Release the First Genesis Album? :) ------------- "I know one thing: that I know nothing" - SpongeBob Socrates |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 14:49
| ^This thread is just fine as it was responsible for this debate. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 15:17
Excellent post, Roland. Very informative for someone such as myself with relatively little exposure to Neo-Prog. Treat this as another one of my rambling asides: Perhaps a better term could be thought of to encompass all the music that we put under the Neo-Prog umbrella, but I believe the term is still relevant. For me it refers to a particular Prog revival movement and its followers that share genre similarities. The question becomes, to me, whether that term should extend beyond the initial "movement" if one want to call it that. People still use the term classical to refer to a wide variety of western academic music, including modern music, despite the fact that it also refers to a specific period. Avant-garde artists of the past centuries are still called avant-garde even though they are no longer at the vanguard of arts. And we still call music avant-garde that draws its inspiration from much earlier avant-garde artists. A lot of music called avant-garde these days is really not avant-garde as it does what has already been done (draws on the past). Rock in Opposition was a particular movement of a particular time, yet bands that were not part of the festivals were included in it (of course there were later festivals) and is often used, wrongly quite often I'dd say, for experimental bands that share little in common with the aims of the RIO movement. True Neo-Prog may have had its day, but its still a term that people are familiar with and can use both historically and for bands that draw on that music for inspiration. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 15:37
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^I would have to say, Logon, that Roland's overview was excellent. I don't feel that he is partly responsible for the term Neo Prog unless he coined the term in the early 90's. The point I beg to differ is on Symphonic Prog being played by orchestral instruments. When I listen to And You And I by Yes, I hear a symphony conjured up by mellotrons and synths, courtesy of Messer's Wakeman and associates. So, Symphonic Prog was already electric prior to the 80's neo craze, IMHO. I'm aware that this is an age old debate, argument or what ever people care to call it. To me, it's just old now, and I would like to see the term modernized for the 21st century. Shalom.
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 15:42
Thanks Logan and well said yourself. I agree, it isn't the best of names, any title with the word 'new' (or Neo as the case may be) is setting itself up for failure. If the movement or title has any sticking power, it will inherently become old one day. I like Techno-Symphonic if you'd like, Synthonic if you're feeling particularily whimsical. But, like you're suggesting for RIO and Avant-Garde, the name has stuck far beyond the initial movement. Trying to go back and change the name, as flawed as it may be, is really an excersize in futility and would require far more work than the good it would net. I agree with your conclusion completely. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 15:51
Thanks Steve, I don't feel that Logan was blaming me personally or even expressing that sentiment. Also, to further clarify, I'm not saying that Symphonic wasn't electric. The Melotron and the Organ are very prevalent in symphonic prog. My point is that those two sounds, in particular, are much rarer in the Neo genre, a lot of time they are replaced by the more modern digital keyboard patches from the FM symthesis era. In my mind I had included the Melotron and Organ as 'traditional instruments' though I can see how that could be a little misleading. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 16:08
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^No problem man. I must say that when I hear the term 'traditional instruments', violins and horns do pop into my head. But for a southern friend of mine, fiddles and banjos pop into his! ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: December 02 2014 at 16:19
LOL, point taken, tradition is a relative term. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |