What is that to you - coherence?
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Topic: What is that to you - coherence?
Posted By: Angelo
Subject: What is that to you - coherence?
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:22
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When I asked a few people about their opinion on an album that I recently reviewed, they told me that it contained a lot of good stuff, but that it lacked coherence. My second question, to one of them, was 'coherence within, or across the tracks?'. The answer was both. After I accepted that, I started wondering - what does that mean, coherence? Inside a song or track, I can imagine one expects the use of matching chords, and perhaps (but optional) a recognisable set of choruses and verses. Across an album, however, what do we expect there? Is it required to have matching songs, in terms of chords, structure and feel? If that is the case, wouldn't a lot of albums become very boring? Or, the other way round, aren't a lot of albums pretty much incoherent? Or is an album incoherent if it mixes elements from different genres or styles in what (some) people consider the wrong way? There are many options, and I'm pretty sure that I never consiously take it into account when reviewing. All I can imagine is that if styles or genres are mixed in the wrong way, I'd recognise it - for example by recognising how Hooks in You as a straight forward hard rock track doesn't match the rest of Marillion's Holidays in Eden album. That makes the album incoherent, perhaps, but not necessarily bad. I could hold the same reasoning for You Know What I Like on Genesis' Selling England by the Pound, which is a completely different beast than Firth of Fifth and the Dancing with the Moonlit Knight. Then again, there are elements in these tracks that match the rest of the album - the typical guitar sounds of Rothery and Hackett for instance. If there is no link at all between tracks, an album could be considered incoherent - but coherence to me can come from a shared atmosphere (feel), recurring elements of certain styles or genres, sound of instrument, use of a particular instrument (Emerson's keys). Only if there is none of those present, an album would probably become incoherent. That's a bit brief, and if this leads to discussion, I may have to elaborate more on this - but for now, I just would like to know what is your view on 'coherence' in the context of a single album. P.S. if anyone is curious what album triggered this discussion, it's the one know as the 'bum' album - Corvus Stone II. Not that that matters, as the examples above hopefully show. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Replies:
Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:38
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Coherence doesn't factor so much for me - you can throw all sorts of different songs on an album, but if they're good and especially if they flow well, it'll work. As for flow, it needn't be a direct segue between tracks, and not even having songs that would seem to naturally go together, just keeping there from being dead air between tracks goes a long way towards making an album flow. That's how George Martin saved The Beatles, and that's how the first four tracks of Minutemen's Double Nickels on the Dime go together in spite of the second beginning with a lull, the fourth being an acoustic track, and everything else is just the lighter side of hardcore punk. I'd say that Corvus Stone II works in this regard.
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Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:45
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Hmmmm....some albums have distinct and unrelated songs, while others revolve around a theme. Still others are highly integrated concept albums. Some albums have a uniform style of play, use of instruments, etc while others have a narrow or broad range of style. A need for a particular degree of coherence may be more of a personal preference, i'd guess. I haven't heard Corvus Stone II yet. It's on my list. :) I wonder if I will have the same reaction. Would love a list of 'incoherent' albums so I may understand what others think this looks like. ------------- More heavy prog, please! |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 14:48
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That's three of us wondering now. As explained, I have no clue what an incoherent album would be, I've found none so far. The opposite would be something like Endless River perhaps - I only heard it 3 times now, but all tracks dinstinctly sound like Pink Floyd as we know them since the 80's. Stylewise, soundwise... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: 'PiphanyRambler
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:05
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I think that to be coherent an album must have tracks with a similar sound, which does not mean they should be all identical, of course. It's when all the songs can convey a certain atmosphere, even at different degrees. I consider VdGG's Godbluff to be very coherent, while the tracks of an album like Into the Electric Castle (Ayreon) have much less in common with each other, going through a wider variety of moods. So, my opinion is that the mood/atmosphere of the album determines its overall coherence. However, I don't care if an album sounds incoherent as long as its songs are well written, but an album with each song written appositely to fit a certain state of mind is just so much nicer to listen to. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:11
In my experience as a reviewer, I have come across albums whose coherence was not immediately evident, yet it was unmistakably there (if this makes any sense at all ). It is a quality of the best albums, which can carry off eclecticism without sounding patchy. On the other hand, an excess of overt coherence can cause an album to sound monotonous and flat. |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:13
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Like with almost everything else in music, it depends. Coherence can mean a lot of different things, but if we're talking about a band that, for lack of a better wording, plays 'dad-prog' then the lack of a red thread running through the album certainly stands out like a sore thumb. Conversely, if we're talking say The Residents, I'm expecting things to be incoherent from the get-go. I think this has as much to do with what one expects of the given album but also what one has come to expect from certain genres. Coherence, or lack there of, can also merely stand for how the whole thing comes together, so to speak. An album can feel like a mess and still be as slick as a baby's bottom and vice versa. Maybe, and I'm merely speculating here, the folks who made this comment about the new Corvus Stone felt a lack of coherence due to the music being recorded separately in various countries and not together as band in the studio? Like I said, I'm only speculating. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:16
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I remember hearing "Battle of Epping Forest" on a record a friend lent me and thought What is this? Not rock, not anything I thought I could like. Then I heard "Firth of Fifth", also on Selling England by the pound". I was hooked! Later, I realised that Epping forest was brilliant, altho' totally unrelated. Just took time and therein lies the way so many accepted and got used to unusual sounds. NON compliance. The White album kicked that idea off very nicely. Hard to think of many albums from the golden age that was coherent but back then there were no rules. The rules were for pop, jazz and classical music. I hope prog never gets rules. What is prog? Music that fits no other genre correctly. Anyone disagree with that? ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:18
That's an interesting view. So Into the Electric Castle is incoherent, but still good, by your definition? Actually, that is not a bad example - that album contains music composed by different people as well (not everything was done by Arjan himself) that was brought together into one album. Maybe Ayreon's debut is an even better example, with a death metal piece next to the renaissance sound of Ye Courtyard Minstrel Boy. Thanks for that, 'PhiphanyRambler'.
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
'PiphanyRambler wrote:Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:18
Oh that is SO true. I never post anything negative about any band anywhere and never will but an album that flows can be very forgettable. ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:20
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I'm just as much a fan of coherence as I am of the opposite. It's just down to the feel of the album and how it's pulled off. Some albums actually feel coherent because of the way they overtly display an incoherent approach to the music (that made sense in my head). ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:25
Darn. I was typing an answer to 'Phiphany and missed a million other replies, haha. This is indeed what I was thinking about - I never came across a really incoherent album, but some do take a few listens. And yes, if you make an album too coherent, you get that stuff they play in elevators I guess. Now that I think of it, it's quite a skill of latter day Pink Floyd to avoid that. Their album is very coherent compared to some others, yet it is not monotous or flat (at least, after 3 listens). ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:27
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In the 70s, coherence or concepts became common and the weird thing is that those very albums destroyed prog in the UK at least. Double albums on a theme, no weird tangents any more but every one of them brilliant in my recollection. At that time I was mystified as to why all my friends went off music by Yes, genesis, Uriah Heep and many others. It was the reverse problem. I like everything and always did. I call it prog rock. ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:29
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Excellent topic Angelo. I tend to enjoy albums with some level of coherence. This does not mean all tracks should sound similar or portray exactly the same atmosphere, but somewhat, somewhere tell the same story (yes, a very abstract definition...). "I know what I like" is like a fish out of the water in its album but that does not necessarily alter the overall feeling of it. BTW Corvus Stone II has struck me as incoherent on first listen but still need to listen a few times. I will return after I had some more thoughts  |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:29
Yes, of course! Epping Forest is an even better example than I Know What I Like.  <-- Where's facepalm when you need him?Not sure if prog doesn't fit any genre, but it's supposed to 'progress' from those genres, right? That means change the rules, or bend them - I tend to agree. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 15:30
Haha, I was going to reply to your previous post, but you almost literally wrote what I was going to write there: coherent incoherence is also coherent. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 16:59
Thanks, Thanos.
Errmmm.... yes, that is abstract, but it works for me. :)
We'll be waiting! ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 17:18
Went off? As in wanting to go back to the more psychedelic and (implicitly) less coherent albums of before that time? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:17
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I don't use the term much, as it is oft thrown around. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:44
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To me, coherence just means an overall strategy. Do all the parts of an album seem to work towards some common goal? They don't even have to sound alike at all. Dark Side of the Moon is "coherent" - Atom Heart Mother is not. But it's not necessarily a bad thing. I actually prefer listening to Atom Heart Mother most of the time, because its relatively aimlessness trajectory is one of the charming things about it. It's also probably why the band hates it so much. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 20:57
| For me, a coherence means that the arrangement / pruduction of the songs is more or less equal at entire album. For example, already mentioned pop song I Know What I Like is made in its arrangement that to be proggy. The same is the case with a few years later recorded the pop song Follow You Follow Me ; in the case that is sung by e.g. Abba, and that the production / arrangement was done by Benny Andersson and Björn Ulvaeus, it would be a big Abba hit without a shadow of doubt. Therefore, incoherence on e.g. Selling England by the Pound would mean that the arrangement and production of the pop composition as I Know What I Like was executed in a common manner of the pop songs as they were in 1973. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 27 2014 at 22:15
I agree with this definition. I listened to Corvus stone II and it had this exact problem. It had a lot of musical ideas that built up to nothing and it felt like it just dragged on going nowhere. The best song on there is "Moaning Lisa" its not perfect but it has some really nice moments and the transitions are much smoother. Albums like Atom Heart Mother work well because there goal is to not make sense. A better example of this would be the improvisation on King Crimson's "Moon Child". It makes no sense but the way instruments interact with each other in a subtle yet thought provoking way make it an unforgettable experience. I would also add that while songs such as "I know what I like" and "Battle of Epping Forest" stick out like a sore thumb on Selling England by the Pound, they do a good job at what they are trying to accomplish. "I Know What I Like" is a more relaxing poppy song that relieves the tension from the intense and dramatic "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight". "Battle of Epping Forest" is a great song by itself And if anything the poppy sound gives it more personality and character. Both of these songs also fit in with the concept of the album. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 00:24
And that last part means that it was exectued differently than (and thus inchorent with) the rest of the album? At least that's what I get from what you write, but I'm not sure I interpret it correctly - because at first you say it's proggy... Actually, and likely unintentionally, your post is somewhat incoherent.  Could you indicate whether my interpretation above is correct?------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 00:30
I see the point in this. actually is similar to what odinalcatraz also metioned, thesse older prog albums are indeed more free format and less 'coherent'. That doesn't make them bad though, on the contrary. 'Moonchild' as a single track is definitely a good example - but how does this apply to the ITCOTCK album as a whole? Apart from being played by the same set of musicians, and being produced by the same producer, there is not much that musically ties 21st Century Schizoid Man to Moonchild or to Epithath. Of course I am exaggerating a bit there, but why is this old album considered a master piece, and why is a newer album with the same issue considered merely incoherent? There's more to it, apparently - who is willing to elaborate on that? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 01:40
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Coherence to me can mean having a theme and that theme can be to wander about all over the place and explore weird stuff. It doesn't to mean a dampening down of ideas. The latest Pink Floyd album has coherence even if its not the most brilliant release of their career. But it works because they knew what they were trying to set down on record and followed that through. |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 02:08
I think the reason ITCOTCK works so well is because all of its musical ideas were given proper development. even though it covers a lot of different musical ideas all of them felt complete and were well integrated into the music. I think an album sounds incoherent when the musical ideas aren't properly developed and fell like they were just thrown in there. I also don't think that a single word should be used to criticize an album. It doesn't explain all the flaws of the album and it doesn't explain how the album could be done better. Its kind of like simply calling something pompous, pretentious, boring, or saying it only has X amount of good songs. It doesn't explain the actual problems.
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 02:35
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Well, it the album is 'incoherent' one word is enough. Problem is that nobody has a proper definition of what 'incoherent' actually means. Same goes for the other words you mention - good to bring those in! To continue down this route - what would you consider 'properly developed' - what is required to meet that definition? If the definition is 'musical ideas are not just thrown in there' that's fine, but then a lot of people who consider (here we go again - it's a useful example, but another one would be welcome) the Corvus Stone albums to be incoherent may miss the point of what is going on on these albums. Each track in itself conveys an idea there, but do the ideas have to match in order to make a coherent album? What is it that make some people love an album like this, while others dislike it but can't come up with more than a single word? This is why I find music so interesting - it's all emotion apparently. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 03:43
In my opinion a properly developed musical idea is one where all the instruments work together to create music in a meaningful or convincing way. This would require music having elements of personality, originality, and complexity in order to create an identifiable sound. At this point it becomes very subjective. After all, you can't tell a painter that his painting is incomplete; but when you compare Corvus Stone II to 70s prog classics you can tell that its lacking something. I would be more interested in discussing what makes music "good". |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 03:43
Ok, I'll try to explain my opinion again. Many of the songs at the celebrated prog albums are pop songs basically, and in another (pop) arrangement they may be, say, in competition for the Eurovision Song Contest. But those songs are driven into prog style by arrangement and production. The song you mentioned in your OP, I Know What I Like, is one of them. If the pop song I Know What I Like had not an arrangment that was done in proggy style, among other songs at the album that are prog songs, Selling England by the Pound the album could be only an incoherent album, and consenquently, a bullsh*t album.
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 06:41
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Thanks, Svetonio. That's what I thought you meant. @trademark0 : is coherent part of good, or vice versa? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 06:43
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P.S. I'm at now, more elaborate replies later. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 08:29
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Hi, I can understand "coherence" in the sense that your language/grammar/wording could use a little clean up to ensure there is no duplication and such. As for the reviews of individual tracks i am not sure that defines a "review" where your opinion on each and every track is mandatory. I tend to review the whole album, and rarely, any individual tracks, although I made a big/huge difference for the KC's first album, because each track was so important, and there is such a myriad of misunderstanding about the whole thing and the meaning of the album! Hyde Park, in its heyday, with many bands, including KC, Edgar Broughton Band and many others, should be enough to tell you that the music means a bit more than just ... another song for the top ten masses! All in all, if your name is ______________, and you are a writer, no one has the right to change your "coherence" ... or we will NEVER EVER FOREVER find another James Joyce, Faulkner, Hemingway, or whomever ... because these supposed "criticisms" will kill the writer and his/her ability to live it out and through. PA, is not here, to kill progressive music and the folks that help support it. Criticism is only fair game, when we're joking around and having fun, other than when someone is being a total idiot and only knows 5 top ten songs, and never heard anything else in their lives and they are proclaiming through their meager amount of postings that they know what "dark music" is! They don't even know the difference between light and dark! ... to be able to discern that the music is "dark", besides the obvious point that they won't adhere to that what may be dark for one is very light for the other! To them, that view is impossible. You have to stand up for your ideas and views, and update them as you see it needed. Not via someone's comments. They might have some truth in them (there is always an inch), but in general, they are about ... my opinion is right and yours is wrong ... and essentially that is not something that will help the next generation create progressive music and more experimental music. You have to learn to shut out the undeducated, for lack of a better term! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 08:42
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I think this is rather unfair, and I am not sure that you are aware of the literary creativity that exists in Great Britain, and has been a part of all their creative efforts for hundreds and hundreds of years. To me, the album was a slight attack on the English upper class, with its gardens, and its this and that ... (the opening credo!) ... and a not so funny joke about the fact that many of us just don't care about anything ... we all like what we know, etc, etc ... and there you are ... a perfect example in your comments. You just didn't like the fact that it some ways it was putting you down! I also like the other cuts, that kind tell you that you like the movies and the drink ... and forget the rest ... The whole thing is much truer, than we give it credit, and Peter's point was that the country was being sold out for the money, not its folks ... and I agree! They are doing the same thing in America ... did you look at the Kmart/WalMart parking lots last night? Maybe your wife went crazy too, and drove you nuts ... now go read the lyrics again ... it's not the holiday anymore ... it's the glut and thirst for spending money and get more toys and unnecessary goodies ... like a pretty garden and a nice lawnmower and you enjoy pruning it and laugh and sing while the music plays loud ... and you couldn't careless what happens in Africa! As XTC would say ... WAKE UP! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: 'PiphanyRambler
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:09
I wonder who you're talking about... |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:52
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To me, coherence is about allowing all the insanity and chaos to flow. I'd say that even Mr. Bungle and Sleepytime Gorilla Museum have coherence. Even the new PoiL album has coherence. And why strive for anything that resembles coherence as long as you are creating what you want. Allow the surreal to flow out. Allow music to rule. I'd rather hear the full extent of an artists creativity. As for the Corvus Stone album, it's a mixture of hippie jam music and dad prog, as I would call it. I would say it's pretty coherent. The kind of people that would say that album is "incoherent" probably doesn't listen to much Rock in Opposition type stuff or the Avant-prog of the world. Coherence takes a much lower stage than creativity, beauty, fury, and the assortment of complex emotions felt within music to me. :) ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 10:57
He took so much offensive that you were simply asking about 'dark prog' and posting your idea of what 'dark prog' meant failing to realize that opinions on what qualities can be attached to music are all based on our own personal perceptions. ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 11:16
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I find this a fascinating topic. Coherence across the whole album is what hooked me on the Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. As someone who plays guitar, but has never made an album (yet). I often wonder about it. Some of it comes from blending and merging things together. Some of from recurring themes, recurring timbres, and so on. Some of it, I suppose, stems from albums naturally representing a certain mindset of musicians through the period of its creation. I think this is what is so brilliant about a lot of Prog; how it hangs together through disparate shifts in genres. Steve Hackett's Spectral Mornings and To Watch the Storms, for instance, how do they hang together in defiance of all their shifts of genres? Although I think it hangs together just fine, I suspect that Steve Hackett might regard his own album Guitar Noir as one that lacks coherence from the way he talks about it. He's spoken of it as a bit of an odd album of sorts, and explains that it was put together over a long stretch of time, which seems to indicate that it didn't represent a coherent mindset for him. (Again, I think it hangs together just fine, which just adds to the mystery). There are a couple albums I'll offer as ones that I think strain the limits of coherence. One is (make sure you're sitting down and breathing deep breaths) - In the Court of Crimson King. Another is Live, Love, Larf and Loaf. I like them, nevertheless. Zappa's stuff also hops around through many disparate styles, and though tracks may be very different, there is a coherence that stems from the counterpoint itself. Zappa himself was interested in this topic, identifying in interviews something he referred to as "conceptual continuity" (although he included continuity between albums as well as within). |
Posted By: Ambient Hurricanes
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 11:24
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Coherence between songs on an album and within a single piece of music are two different animals, in my opinion. There are plenty of ways you can achieve coherence on an album: stylistically, lyrically, thematically, production-wise...the list goes on and on on, and what devices you employ depend on whether the album is designed as a simple collection of songs or as a single work meant to be taken as a whole. I see coherence within a single piece of music as almost entirely a matter of thematic development, and that not always in the "classical" sense of the word, where a melody is introduced and then varied throughout a piece; a particular rhythm or harmony or even timbre can be developed. My composition professor likes to say that the essence of composition is taking a short musical idea and expanding it into an entire work. This, in my opinion, is why some of the best progressive rock songs actually follow a fairly standard song structure, even though it is obviously expanded and arranged in a more complex way; form facilitates development. ------------- I love dogs, I've always loved dogs |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 12:36
Yes, you can tell a painter that his painting is incomplete. I did a watercolor painting once and made the mistake of showing it off before it was done. It was segmented into three different color schemes. In one of the segments I had orange, blue and green. People thought it was horrible (orange and blue complement each other, but nothing complemented the green, and green and orange definitely do not work together). Of course I was going for a four way color scheme the whole time. Once I touched up the shadows with a little red to complement the green the reaction to it changed completely. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 15:28
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There is no such thing as coherence, when you are talking about an artist. Go look for "coherence" on Picasso, Miro, Dali! Go look for "coherence" on most writers in the 20th century other than the pulp top ten folks! Go look for "coherence" in Stravinsky and many other composers in the 20th century!
Give it a break ... I was born in 1950, went to Brazil in 1959, came to America in 1965, went to California in 1971. moved to the Pacific Northwest in 1982. The only "coherence" is that there is a person named Pedro in tehre .... the rest is just a part of the whole! You're asking people to be the same for a whole album and their whole lifetime or work ... and that is senile and bad thinking. Pay attention to the words ... I'm only standing up to the artists, and you are trying to lock them down ... and expect them to kiss your hiney! You're killing progressive, prog and any other kind of music by not allowing these folks to be who they are and do what they see ... it has to be what you see!!!!!! You're insane! (as the Firesign Theater would say!) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 15:48
No one!
Water under the bridge!
And you are less interested in the subject line rather than be incoherent and change the subject?
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:23
"dad prog"? Is that a new prog sub genre like dark prog?
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Posted By: 'PiphanyRambler
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:34
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Well, I've surely gone OT, but I don't understand how that post of yours I quoted is related to this thread either. Why would you shut out the uneducated, as you wrote? Why not to teach them instead? If someone doesn't know what's dark and you know, then show them (just an example of course, it could be applied to anything). It would bring to more interesting discussions than just leaving out those who are not knowledgeable enough. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:39
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Gentlemen, take it outside please. Let's keep this one on-topic.... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 16:54
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Coherence in an album is entirely subjective to the listener. The album represents a vision of the artist's work. Sometimes it is one person's vision, sometimes an entire band, sometimes the producer or engineer is part of it as well, and sometimes even the record company executives. And what sounds cohesive to one listener may be quite the opposite to another. For example, many have lamented the honkytonk tracks on ELP albums. They say that they don't fit in with the depth of the heavy tracks, or the beauty of the Greg Lake ballads. To me, they serve as a pleasant diversion. On "Brain Salad Surgery", side one starts off very heavy, gets wilder, then goes very light, and suddenly offers "Benny The Bouncer", a humorous little piece that gives you a breather before diving into the magnum opus "Karn Evil 9". It works. Perfectly. To me. But maybe no for others. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 17:03
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In my view, eclecticism (i.e. what some people would see as lack of coherence) is definitely a positive in an album, especially when progressive rock/music is concerned. Besides Evolver's excellent reference to ELP, I think of King Crimson's "I Talk to the Wind", whose gentle, almost light-hearted mood contrasts sharply with the intensity of the other tracks, but at the same time complements them and does not feel out of place. There is an indefinable something that makes albums like In the Court of the Crimson King, Selling England by the Pound or Brain Salad Surgery coherent, and much more successful in terms of overall structure than many albums whose coherence is overt. |
Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: November 28 2014 at 18:24
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Eclecticism works, except when it doesn't. For example, I find Poseidon to be deeply flawed in its incoherence. The great tracks are pushed around by oddities that sound nothing like them or each other, and that just don't have any value to me artistically or otherwise. But not to pick on KC, I think they pull off the difficult art of seamless eclecticism well in some of their other albums, and they remain one of my absolute favorite prog bands. I also have no qualms about gleefully chopping up an album to make it listenable to me, introducing coherence where it didn't exist before. Who says we have to be slaves to the artists' vision? They had their say, we paid them for it, now I'm going to have my own say.
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Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 00:01
You are indeed consistent. I don't know who you are addressing, but since your post follows mine, I guess I'll tackle a response. There are some artists who are not at all self reflective, have no idea how they do what they do and don't care. I have no problem with that. There are also some artists who are very self-reflective and deliberate meticulously upon what they do. Would you please quit acting like they don't exist. It's entirely possible to be self-reflective without losing spontaneity and one's personality. I might also add that every post I recall has acknowledged the vagueness of the idea of coherence, so I don't see any artist is being locked down by anything said here and we are certainly not trying to do any such thing in the first place. Personally I find this thread fascinating and enjoy hearing other's thoughts about it. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 01:45
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It's a very interesting topic and one for which I don't have really an answer. Practically all Queen albums from Sheer Heart Attack up to Jazz might be considered incoherent in the sense that they contain such a wide variety of stuff. Can you get more different songs mixed together than Sheer Heart Attack, All Dead, Sleeping On the Sidewalk, It's Late, My Melancholy Blues etc? And yet they have never stroke me as incoherent albums and I have never heard them being criticized for that, A Night At The Opera is almost unanimously considered a masterpiece album. They are 'individual songs' albums, but I wonder if had they put the songs in a different sequence, would they work just the same? Is it simply enough that every song be good on its own? I think that in a 'songs album', deciding the songs order can change the way an album feels. On the other hand, coming back to the Corvus Stone albums, every time I listen again to any of them, I can't help a sense of incoherence and lack of collective meaning (sorry Colin!). Why does it happen and not with most Queen albums (for example), do not ask me.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 02:49
Probably, The Beatles White album would never have been accepted in this dane prog age I love that album, except number 9 grrrrrr that track one listen, just a bit and it stays stuck with me for days, arghhh bah! In my head, the voices... number 9, nonstop playing over and over again   That did not deter me from thinking you are a very nice, sincere and sweet person at all. Another Sorry, I forgot to quote Gerinski above  I do love him I must add, even if our moozik tastes are not quite parallel, I do like him a lot.  very much infact! hugs to all |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 03:03
Yes, I feel the same about Nr 9 As for the question of the OP: Funny, I couldn't find an example of an incoherent album. Eclectic, yes, but most most albums that I know (albums that I like, albums that I hate and albums that I'm indifferent to), I experience them still as having one core, a unifying theme. For me the most incoherent sounding albums are at the same time some of the best loved in the rock world: the Beatles' White Album and Neil Young's Harvest. Bottom line: incoherence doesn't play a significant role in my personal musical experience. Good question for a thread, though, I never was consciously aware of that.
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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 03:55
Well it might depend on what definition of incoherent we're using. It can mean confusing or incomprehensible or it can just mean inconstant. I don't want to judge albums on the basis of consistency unless were talking about how consistently "good" the album is. Consistent albums can sound dull and repetitive and inconsistent albums can sound random and disjointed, but what really matters is how the music is executed. If we are using the other definition we have to realize the what might be incomprehensible to one person can be be understood by another, so we cant just apply it to anything that seems to complicated.Someone else mentioned RIO and avant bands and I don't find those bands incomprehensible because I understand exactly what they're trying to do with their music even if it is complicated. I had trouble understanding what Corvus Stone were trying to do on Corvus Stone II both musically and conceptually, and it was much less complicated.
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 05:50
Nr 9!!!! ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 07:20
Go Pedro Go!!!  A rant is a beautiful thing to admire.I tend to agree with you btw. Coherence in prog?... might as well start looking for dancing girls and songs about crusing in your 5.0 with my ragtop down so your hair can blow. Those albums have coherence and a lack of variety and are easily considered coherent. I've often read 'lack of cohernce' in prog reviews and it is a red flag the reviewer is likely talking out their ass and trying to find some reason to justify simply not liking the album. How do you argue with someone saying the album isn't coherent. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 07:45
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: November 29 2014 at 19:02
 Kati watch your words or I will book a trip to South-Africa (or is it Mozambique now?). A portuguese and a spanish, both of them speaking also dutch, both of them expatriate to other countries than their own, and both of them liking Prog, with tastes perhaps not parallel but maybe complementary..... could be a match ! Now seriously, you are a lovely person too (and I love your artwork !). The biggest and sweetest hugger I know besides my ex-dog Gaston .  BTW Nr 9 is indeed a hard nut, I was not a big fan of Good Night either so in the times of vinyl and turntables, I often lifted the needle arm after Cry Baby Cry.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 00:36
Trademark, I see in regards to every single
comment you made, you have great difficulty with this Corvus Srone album/band.
Try to listen to every song in the album as one instead as being a concept.
This band utilizes, enjoy playing tunes with overflowing layers to the finest
detail on each individual track. Their focus is mostly treating every single
track as if it’s the only song/album/single etc, they enjoy and bring the best
they can on each individual song. Not one song is similar to the other. They
have 8 singers on this album, two songs are sang in Finish, one song is in
English and Spanish J This
alone is enough for critique, they take risks yes but they do not see it that
way, they clearly have fun, enjoy what they do, don’t take things too seriously
however seriously enough as musicians trying their best to produce something to
the best they can meanwhile also covering the costs themselves to produce cd’s
etc without any funding. I adore this
music so much however I absolutely also respect others people’s opinion and personal
preferences who crave and have a different mindset compared to me. Very hard to suggest a song for you to listen, I am going to risk even more by suggesting you listen to a song that you probably won’t even understand the lyrics hihihi and here it is: http://mrrcorvusstone.bandcamp.com/track/camelus-bactrianus-tuolla-tuonnempana" rel="nofollow - http://mrrcorvusstone.bandcamp.com/track/camelus-bactrianus-tuolla-tuonnempana hugs |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 00:47
Awwww oh awwww Grezinski, awww a beautiful buddy you have there on that picture with the happiest cutest smiling face too!  This picture speaks volume, you both look amazing here, you look hot and fluffy brings out so much character awww so cute! This picture could be a great commercial, it's a dream perfect pic for this too, lovely heartwarming picture. I can clearly see the love between you both  |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 03:18
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I wonder if they went for the full on snog
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:15
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This is so true ... but the problem is that some of the folks, even posting here, don't believe that it is an art, and that the "writer" has to conform to the rules of Gideon, and the Devil, and Neptune! It's embarrassing! This is why I do not talk about Genesis as "progressive". I only talk about Genesis and any other group as "music" and a "composer". Their complete history of music, or their lifetime, makes them a great body of work for the whole century, regardless of Peter being there or not. It's great music, regardless, though some of the later stuff might not be my "favorite". I tend to not have "favorites" and I stay away from teh top ten game all the way! And these folks don't understand, or believe, that "artists" have a lifetime, and that they have a right to do as they please ... and if you don't like it ... too bad! I can't believe how these guys are trying so hard to LIMIT what was the freedom that we had, and are trying to dumb it down to crap! And they still don't know Picasso had at least 3 major periods, and they were far more different than Dream Theater's! THERE, I said it! It's the knowledge of the arts, that hurts here ... too many of the folks here can only think of history as that of the stuff they have heard and know. And the world has had millions of years and more music, than you and I and a trillion people can ever imagine!
I'm OK with it not working for others, as long as the ability to understand and see the history of the arts and the music is involved. When the "history", is just 5 songs, the whole thing is out of line and perspective! And the depth of the perspective is what helped create "progressive" and "prog", but these folks can't admit that they have no idea what that means! It's OK to be naive, and you can learn at that point. But being stupid and not wanting to hear out the history, which is bigger than them and I, is not good at all! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:41
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I'm consistent because I'm a writer. I have over 500 foreign film reviews, over 100 album reviews (won't post most of them here for a reason!), and over 100 concert reviews. Not to mention 4 novels, 3 plays, and 400 poems! I'm just not into it because I want to show you my brand new gold plated cadillac and my rings on my fingers and the three blonds on my dock! I'm into it, because ... and I've said it time and again ... it is what I see! I do not go around saying that what I see is right and you are wrong. I do express, almost as clinically as I can, that this is how I see it ... and I know, from experience of being next to a big time famous writer (my dad), that there are some buffoons out there and some very interesting folks as well. Problem here, is that most folks don't know the difference, and their perspective is not intuitive at all, but almost always related to their friends and the music they know that you can't possibly know or accept that it is good!
For me that would depend if you are "inside of it" or "outside of it". There is a difference in that reflection. What/results comes from that is not necessarily the same thing, and I would never venture to guess it.
The only lock down that bothers me, I admit it, is that the tone is always slanted to the top ten stuff, and when someone says something different, it is a problem. The understanding and ability to discuss it (not you or most of us experienced folks here!), comes into play ... specially when they are defining "dark" by an organ that is using the modulating wheel to make the notes and chords sound weird and bizarre, which makes it dark ... which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! They never even heard E Power Biggs! And creating a name for a style based on an effect is wrong! We need to help put that down. I know that we are in the time of electricity, and the effects are there, and this is the part of hawkwind I love dearly, that most folks go ... it's boring ... because it is repetitive, but at the same time the sound is not ... the sound is ever changing on the effect, to help create a mood, and some folks do not have the patience to close their eyes and follow the mood! So, at least I can say that I'm not immune to the "effects", either, but I think that to label a style off it, is wrong ... we don't label Hawkwind weird because they do Steppenwolf one day and Reefer madness the next and master of the Universe the next! And sometimes it could be said to be the same riff ... !!! I can trip! I'm a veteran at that! But in many ways, some of the folks here, kids included, they really need to go get stoned! They are not good trippers, when all they can see is thrashing and think that DT is just doing notes! What musician/s would not be intelligent enough to get a better feel for their music as to when they are filling it or doing it? Like Beethoven and Mozart never had "filler" in their music? It distorts the argument and discussion, is the way I see it. But, you really think that Beethoven and Mozart just thrashed in spots for the heck of it? .... NO! We, and history of music and such do not believe that for 1 second! (You want to talk about writers using "filler"? Start with Stephen King and harry Potter stuff!)------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 10:48
Revolution #9 is easy Kati.
Grab a portable cassette recorder, turn on the microphone and walk down the street, specially a somewhat busy one.
Go home and listen to the 25 or 30 minutes of it!
Voila ... a day in the life .... of any street!
I think it was the way the Beatles stated that "life" is also an "art" ... and that was something that helped the "progressive" mold a lot, because it took limits out and allowed for more open experimentation and ideas ... and that's a great thing!
The White Album is massive that way. Still one of the most progressive albums EVER, when you relate it to the time it came out! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:43
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Too subjective a question for me, Angelo. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 13:51
That, and that Mosh covers incoherence better than anyone. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 15:38
Hmmmm... pity. I would've at least hoped that you (Steve) would've tried to give it an objective twist. And yes, Dark Elf, Pedro does make a good case for incoherence, or maybe even artistic freedom - I largely agree with his statement that artistic freedom should not be limited by the onlooker, or in our case the listener. That is also pretty much in line with what Evolver wrote:
It is the artist c.s. who decides what ends up on an album, and the fact that they decide what's on the album determines the basic criterion for coherence: if the artist thinks things belong together, they do - don't they? And there I can agree with Raff, who describes pretty much how I look at albums like ITCOTCK, which I mentioned before, but also the Corvus Stone album that triggered this discussion. It does show that indeed there is a lot of subjectivism involved though, given Stereolab's reaction to the same post:
In a different part of the discussion, Gernski and Kati concluded something similar, around Queen, and the Beatles White Album, which also seems to be the opinion of Moogtron III:
All in all, I see that most of us seem to agree that there has to be some form of coherence in an album, but that it has a different meaning for everyone. That makes coherence, just like other quality aspects of a (musical) product, very much a subjective thing, and hard to grasp. Examples mentioned are the atmosphere provided by the tracks, consistency in musical style, consistency in sound or effects, all of which are very much different, but it is the artist who decides what goes together. I can live with that, but it doesn't explain which of these (or other) possible options make people consider the example I started with, Corvus Stone, to be lacking coherence. I'm not sure if we'll ever by able to objectify coherence or its opposite incoherence/eclectisism to the point where we can all judge it equally, although I did challenge SteveG and Dark Elf to give it a shot  One thing though, and for that I have to go the Corvus Stone example, is the question brought up by Geriniski. If an album consists of individual, and very much differing songs, the album can still be considered good and in a way coherent. So what (see quote below) makes the difference between the Queen albums he mentioned (from Sheer Hart Attack up to Jazz) and an album like Corvus Stone II? And what is it that is lacking, if Trademark0's observation made very early on in the discussion is correct? We should be able to tell, according to HackettFan. Help me out here, because I don't feel anything is lacking here - let's make the example into a vehicle for further discussion. What is the red that is missing (or not) for you here?
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:29
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There is a slight issue here, though ... if the lyrics tell you a story in a conventional way, you think it is immediately a "concept", and you accept that it is coherent. Thus, Thick as a Brick and Passion Play are OK for you, despite the fact that Passion Play has some very vicious lyrics and it is extremelly pointed, and in many ways is way more "coherent" than Thick as a Brick, which is intentionally obscure. And we haven't even considered "Close to the Edge" or "Tales from Topographic Oceans" or "Relayer", where things are even more nebulous and Jon is not saying anything (and rightly so!!!!) to help define the work itself. And of course, the fact that Rick didn't like it, and Bill didn't care for it, and Chris won't play it ... says even more about it all and what they think! But you can see the respect that Transatlantic has for the piece, and how nicely Jon was flowing with it, which tells you that there is more here, that is VERY COHERENT or these folks might not enjoy or appreciate playing it! I can't imagine any of those folks playing this if that love and coherency was not there!
Yes and no. In my prose and poetry, it is a free form of writing, I can not tell you what I wrote until I read it later ... why? it's a movie in my head and I'm trying to translate those visuals as fast as possible. There is no time to discuss anything else, or make decisions. it is not a "thought process" the way we would interpret it, and the "completeness" of it, is the difference between "vision" and "thought". While this last part might confuse you, it is the biggest truth I have ever found in my own work! One completes itself in its vision, the other throws you off, because there would normally be elements that are not a part of the complete picture, that were added by the "thoughts'. The color spectrum (my only words for it!) of these is wild and all over the place. The color spectrum of the other pieces is very unique, strong and (I call it) SOLID, and very different from the scattered vision. There ... now you know my "secret". It ain't a secret, but it is dependent on my inner sight ... thus you now know why I tell people off in the division of analog/digital, because it is like saying that one t-shirt makes you and the t-shirt has nothing to do with the work you put together ... except that you wore it one day! It's the person and the inner vision that matters!!!!!! Very important concept! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:34
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(sorry ... duplicate) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:39
| Well, got to thank this thread for introducing me to Corvus Stone II... just heard the first three tracks and then immediately bought it. Despite the variations, there is a fundamental togetherness to the music that renders it very coherent to me, at least. I think this is a learned skill for a band, to express a core musical narrative through a variety of musical styles. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:59
Cool ...
I like to be surprised and have no idea what's coming! It makes no difference what it is or isn't musically or any other artistic thought.
For me, it is not about it being coherent or not ... for example, I love listening to AMAROK, just as much as i do INCANTATIONS. And one of these is definitly "incoherant"! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:15
Pedro makes a good case for incoherence? That is an understatement. In fact, you could say that no one but Pedro could make incoherence an art form. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 17:36
WRONG!!!!!
You haven't been listening a whole lot.
Faust is a good example.
And if you get bored, you need a good session and dose of Robert Wyatt ... and if that's not enough, you really should try Art Bears! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 18:37
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I actually don't know of any prog rock albums, or any albums for that matter, where there is no link between the tracks at all. Even Mr Bungle tracks have a common theme of chaotic and intentionally jarring juxtapositions. What does webster say about incoherent? 1. not able to talk or express yourself in a clear way that can be easily understood 2.not logical or well-organized : not easy to understand Mosh is right. In art, to come to either of the above conclusions about a work would be to presume that not only did the artist fail to express himself clearly but you in turn knew exactly what he wanted to say and possibly also how he ought to have said it.
And that doesn't make sense. A more honest position is perhaps that a particular album just didn't resonate with you or some tracks in it didn't. Coherence within a song relates more to thematic unity, yes. And again I presume most if not all compositions do have it. If people feel a song is INCOHERENT, what they probably mean is the changes or shifts in the music didn't work for them. Again, it is probably more honest to simply state the latter. Most prog rock, especially in the modern day is recorded with a lot of deliberation and calculation and not at all 100% spontaneous. So to say it is incoherent would be to say a Phd scholar produced a bunch of unintelligible gibberish in his thesis, which we know is very very unlikely to be the case. Occam's Razor ought to rule out this possibility, but the simplest possible explanation (that the problem is with you and not the artist) is usually rejected in music criticism. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:00
hahaha! RichardH
I bet they did, Gerinski even got a face and hair wash all in one go  |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:11
Moshkito writes a whole essay about a topic, his comments are very extensive and long, therefore some might not read it due to being extensive but if one reads what he says it's so good, an intelligent opinion/perspective which makes perfect sense. I can quote many things he said here, very clever and insightful really. xxxx
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:22
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When Paul McCartney released WE ALL STAND TOGETHER (THE FROG SONG). Even on youtube I read someone saying that it sounds like a children's song and it's stupid. In this case McCartney accomplished what he was meant to do, IT IS A CHILDREN'S SONG. I love the bom, bom bom, hurry up song to be honestPutting down an artist for making a children’s song, this
reflects bad on the reviewer . It is reasonable for a reviewer not to like it
but to comment on what he thinks what the artist should do is not fine, to
think that their opinion should make the musician do what they think it should
do, that is wrong, what might happen due to all imposing opinions is the musician not releasing
anything else instead. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 21:49
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: November 30 2014 at 23:19
Wow! Stereolab!
yay bounce, bounce, happy bounce! You wont regret it I think, all tracks are so different, 3 tracks you heard is not enough to describe this album hihihihi this is an album you keep going back to listen and each time you hear something you didn't hear before big hugs You awww |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 00:14
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I dedicate this song to all those who have an opinion what a band should or not sound like
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 01:35
Right... that made me spill my coffee and leave my breakfast. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 01:38
Hmmm. Nice examples! TAAB's tension between the different parts works for me, but not for others (who only like parts of it). There's something to consider.... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 01:43
Darn... I knew that someone would at some point pull up the dictionary. Glad you still tried to add your own opinion to the formal definition though - although I you seem doubtful (presume, probably, 3rd person...). Of course the artist is the one who decides what ends up on an album or in a track, and even if some (like Pedro) led their inner voice guide them 'unconsciously', the opinion formed about the work lies with the listener not the artist. That was clear from my initial question, I hope - "What does coherence mean to you?" ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 02:37
Well yeah, he loved licking my face and my neck and my ears and I have to admit that I let him do, I had to wash my face more often than a clown
and sure enough I kissed him too, he was happy when I did |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 03:42
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I feel a bit uncomfortable focusing the discussion on Corvus Stone because I don't like criticising a present band who obviously have put a lot of effort and have done their best, and particularly in this case they are getting a generalised big praise for what they have done, so the problem lies clearly in me, not in their work. This is one reason why I have not reviewed the album (at least not yet), I was already quite critical with their debut and I don't want to write another critical review for II when the problem seems to be that it has not clicked for me or I have not understood it. I should listen to it more and more carefully and make an extra effort to try to 'get it', but honestly it's difficult because every time I listen to it it does not 'click' so I feel a bit lazy to play it again. Regardless, the very few negative reviews they have received all seem to share 'incoherence' as one of the criticisms (possibly THE main criticism about the album). So it's clearly something subjective but shared by a small number of listeners. At any rate Corvus Stone should not mind about that as clearly the big majority of listeners love their work and do not see any problem with the band's approach to ecclecticism, rather the opposite, they consider it one of their strong points. Now, leaving Corvus Stone aside, it is not uncommon to read in reviews words or sentences of the style "disjointed", "many ideas but going nowhere", "meandering pointlessly" etc. So a perception of 'incoherence' is not merely an artifact of a dumb listener who pretends to know more than the artist himself. It is something real, inherent to humans, and I think that sometimes (not always) it may have something to do with the concept of 'completeness'. As humans we have an innate tendency to expect 'completeness' in things. Things which begin and develop we expect them to have a conclusion, not to keep on developing forever or without any perceived final direction. If you see someone drawing a circle and stopping just before closing it, you will unconsciously picture the completion of the circle in your mind's eye. If you see something unfinished in your daily life environment, it will probably bother you every time you look at it and you are likely to grab the tools or whatever and finish it so it will not bother you anymore next time you look at it. If you watch a movie, you expect the story to have a conclusion, and when it is a multi-part film you are left with the longing to see the next chapter to know how will the story end. Once your longing for completion is satisfied, you are 'in peace' with that thing and you can move on to other things. 'Completeness' in a more general sense means that our expectations or longings about something are met, satisfied. Many people feel 'complete' when they leave offspring behind them in a good situation to continue a decent life by themselves, that is a very strong longing in life for many people. Others feel complete if they know they will be leaving some personal imprint in the world after they will be gone. Coming down to music, the 'longing' we have from listening to a piece of music is that it leaves us satisfied, that it does not leave us missing that sense of completion, that we are not left with a sense that we have to keep searching elsewhere for some missing piece. When we perceived a musical work as 'incoherent' it may mean that our longing for that 'inner peace' which comes from 'completion' has not been satisfied. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 08:06
Well, the thing is coherence is just a plain English word and moreover not one that is connected to moods or emotions. So what is coherent to the artist cannot be incoherent to the listener unless the artist is grossly incompetent or the listener has a very poor understanding of music. And that is why I reproduced the definition here, to bring attention to what the word actually means. It seems to me that it is just one of those words that is lazily tossed about to rationalise one's intuitive, emotional experience of an album. It seems to be applied to situations where there is not much conceptual unity, musically or lyrically or both, in the album or maybe just not as much conceptual unity as a particular listener desires. But that scarcely makes it incoherent. I reproduced two possible meanings of the word. One pertained to the act of expressing in a manner that is not clear (emphasis on the artist here) and the other on being difficult to understand or not logical (from the listener's point of view). Surely, the fact that say one or two or even more of the tracks diverge stylistically from the rest does not make it incoherent. Maybe incongruous is a better word. Sorry for a semantic diversion but I just felt that the word as it is being applied is perhaps too strong to describe what is intended to be conveyed. Incoherent seems more apt for say those peculiar internet comments where there is no punctuation or even capitalisation where required (alternatively, all caps) so that it becomes painful to read. The musical equivalent of it would be some utter gibberish and not much of prog rock is that, in my opinion. Going by the average rating of 4.13 of Corvus Stone II after 146 ratings, I think I am pretty safe in assuming it isn't gibberish either.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 09:35
I have always loved that film and the amazing list of bootlegs that came out (over 20 of them) that had so much material that never made it to the film.
If there EVER was a film that needed to be redone and cleaned up, and extended with the rest of the stuff, this is the film!
Sadly, someone is waiting for the other 2 Beatles to die, before they touch it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 10:10
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I could be extremely critical of the new CS album without talking about incoherence. I feel like it all sounds too "samey" for me honestly haha ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 11:19
That's true, incoherence is a word which applies better to things or processes which involve some rational logic and interconnection between their components, such as writing. It is easy to tell when we read something incoherent, we have trouble tying the knots and making sense of what is trying to be told, we find contradictions in the different elements or the required logic is violated. I'm not sure if we should expect music to bear also some degree of rationality or not. Perhaps there lies the question, people who do not expect any rationality from music and expect only a triggering of assorted emotions will find the term 'incoherent' not applicable for music, but people who expect a certain degree of rationality in a musical work may perceive incoherence when they can not find it.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 11:34
Lucky
for you, you don’t have to limit your choices. Progressive Rock boasts an
abundance of music to satisfy all of us. Listen to what makes you happy. |
Posted By: Smurph
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 12:08
Oh yes I agree with you :) Thats what I do. I appreciate your positive attitude. I LOVE music that plenty of people on here find unbearable. This is life. I was just commenting because that's part of this discussion. I don't mean to just come in and be negative :P ------------- http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/ wtf |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 12:37
Fair enough, I had some doubts about proposing to focus on the example for a bit.
Indeed.
That's the kind of idea I was hoping to find here. I could not put my finger on what 'coherence' would be, but this definitely shines a light on it.
Hey, you said it again Seriously though, this probably makes a lot of sense. I know of some albums that don't 'click' with me, in the same way you expressed at the start of your post - Dream Theater's Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence for example. It's not incoherent per se, probably far from it (been a while since I tried listening to it), but something seems to be missing. Fair point, master Geriniski. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 12:39
Yay! We're getting somewhere here. In line with what Gerinski wrote, incongruous could be a bette word - with people picking incoherence because they don't know the other one (not all of us are native English speakers). And the comparison to that internet commenting style is spot on when it comes to addressing the point. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 12:40
Now all you have to do is learn how to quote without getting Microsoft tags inserted. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 13:20
WOW what a great post.
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 13:21
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Post of the week, and it has only started - not? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 13:44
I wouldn't use a term as strong as "grossly incompetent". It's a spectrum. Assuming a band is not deliberately trying to create a bad or incoherent album, whether or not most listeners will also hear it as coherent is on the skill of the band. Which can range from dreadful to average to genius, and is a combination of the inherent talent of the members and their experience working together. If the majority of listeners feel that an album doesn't fit well together, it's not the audience's fault -- the band simply did not do a good enough job of expressing their vision.
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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 21:41
I don't think the majority argument would be accurate. There is always the possibility that the majority isn't properly judging the album, which leads to another question. How do you properly judge an album? Unlike literature or films, there aren't many concrete ideas for which you can base musical criticism on. Incoherence would be a criticism of the overall composition of the album, but we would need to understand what makes a composition effective in the first place. |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 22:03
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Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 22:11
An album either has "it", or it doesn't. I do not think it's possible to accurately describe the sensation of, should I say, sailing (drifting? floating?) with the flow music. It's pure magic, which can't be explained by creating logical constructs, based on facts and figures.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 22:17
It's all good Smurph, infact you brought a different dynamic into this topic haha dad prog, hahaha I laughed so much, you were the one who brought a completely different opinion on here it's not ni nor yay hahaha!!  |
Posted By: Stereolab
Date Posted: December 01 2014 at 22:57
I would be open to forming a "prog inquisition". There are definitely some Rolling Stone reviewers who I'd be tempted to put to the question... |