Siouxsie and the Banshees vs. Television
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Topic: Siouxsie and the Banshees vs. Television
Posted By: Polymorphia
Subject: Siouxsie and the Banshees vs. Television
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 14:38
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Siouxsie and the Banshees vs. Television Siouxsie and the Banshees were one of the first "goth rock" bands, sporting the confident vocals and theatrics of Siouxsie Sioux and the guitar brilliance of John McGeoch, they went on to inspire the Cure to go in the goth rock direction. From the New York scene, Television were known for the dazzling guitar work of Tom Verlaine and Richard Lloyd. With their album Marquee Moon, they have continued to inspire guitarists to this day. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Replies:
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:09
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Hmm, tough call. I think I'll go with Siouxsie, because how many other people can you say singlehandedly invented both a musical subgenre and a fashion statement? ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:12
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what sub-genere? -------------  
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:15
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^post-punk ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:15
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I'm just a niouxbie when it comes to Siouxsie. Nothing's really taken hold yet. As for Television I love the Marquee Moon album. Verlaine's solo on the title track is a classic example of how to craft a great solo without a lot of chops. Sometimes when I'm stuck for a solo I think about that song and it sometimes helps me overcome my suckitude. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:15
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Whoa, I'm listening to The Scream right now so I'm surprised to see S&TB come up. For the record the US band I'd compare them to the most would probably be early Christian Death. (as fronted by the late Rozz Williams) ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:27
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^Christian Death will have their chance. I didn't place them with Siouxsie mostly because they have more in common with Bauhaus aesthetically than the Banshees. Plus, Banshees vs. CD? The vote would be too easy. Not that there's not a fair share of that in the polls already. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 15:32
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Yeah, CD only have two really good albums whereas S&TB have a pretty consistent discography despite the drastic changes in style. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 17:41
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I do really like Television and Marquee Moon. But, this is Siouxsie and the Banshees we are talking about - originally a punk band that produced one of the first (and best) post punk albums slightly dodgy second album that i adore (ok so not quite as much as the Scream) split up employed one of the best guitarist ever and a thumping drummer. Then continued to produce ground breaking albums and influenced so many bands. anyway, you could put them up against just about any band and I wouldn't waver. Oh and did I say that Siouxsie is a godess? so my vote goes to the Americans......only joking. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 17:48
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Siouxsie and the Banshees are one of my favourite non-prog bands (and have been for quite a long time). I also love Siouxsie's voice, so distinctive and different from the hordes of indistinguishable, saccharine-sweet sopranos that many prog fans seem to prefer. |
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: December 20 2014 at 23:17
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Television is amazing. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: ole-the-first
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 00:50
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Both are amazing ------------- This night wounds time. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 03:48
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If the Television song Polymorphia posted is indicative of their style, I'm definitely voting for Siouxsie. Surprised the OP didn't post the video for Spellbound by the way. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Imperial Zeppelin
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 05:32
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TV ------------- "Hey there, Dog Man, now I drink from your bowl." |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 05:38
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sisoouxuxuxusie k |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 05:45
I don't follow. The Television song posted was See No Evil?  ------------- 
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Toaster Mantis wrote:Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 05:50
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The two bands are so different in sound I find it an apples-and-oranges situation, right now I just happen to subjectively prefer S&TB. It's possible that if this poll was posted half a year ago or so I'd be voting for Television instead. Can understand why a lot of people are voting for them anyway. I know it sounds rather silly, but the two groups' signature styles aspire towards very different creative priorities even if they use some of the same ingredients and techniques. Maybe one of them fulfils their respective goals more successfully if you analyze the music in details, or you could argue that what one is aspiring towards accomplishing either more interesting if not objectively better, but that discussion would require a lot of more abstract aesthetic theorizing I'm not really in the mood for right now. That's the reason I said earlier in this thread that it'd be much more interesting pitting S&TB against Christian Death. An album like Only Theatre of Pain has the similar over-the-top noisy psychedelic sound and fantastic (or at least kinda cartoonish) horror/sci-fi aesthetic as the Banshees' early records, whereas Television's much closer to "normal" rock music and deal with more realistic themes in their music. The latter might be more serious by most estimations, but it also scratches a rather different itch. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 06:31
I'm stealing the word 'suckitude' for my future memoires, Steve. You are my inspiration. Oh and I went with Siouxsie  Love Marquee Moon though, but it's 1 great album up against 5. No contest. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 06:43
I use that word all the time when referring to any sports team based in Washington, DC  .... |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 06:45
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Sounds like an Ozrics album from the mid 90s to me... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 08:15
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Sounds more like the name of an exceptionally goofy grindcore/powerviolence band. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 08:27
Oh bugger, semantic confusion. PA member Polymorphia posted the television song See No Evil not the Television song 'Polymorphia' posted being indicative of any style etc Apologies  -------------
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 09:01
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Sorry for my misunderstanding in turn, I thought you were arguing that Television were objectively better than S&TB. (and like I say I find the two bands too radically different for that to be an easy argument to make) Was actually pretty close to starting a separate thread about S&TB, as I've been listening to them a lot over the last couple weeks, but thinking that'd come across as somewhat awkward now. I still haven't heard the later more psychedelic poppy albums in the style they switched to after Dreamhouse. Apparently it was for that and not their early punkier style that made them popular in the US, whereas in the UK they had lots of hit singles from the beginning and onwards? ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 09:05
"See No Evil" is indicative of Television's style, and you are welcome to vote based on that; however, I would definitely recommend listening to Marquee Moon sometime in your life. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 09:13
Yep, they're apples and oranges really and it seems slightly perverse that a non punk US rock band who remained a non punk US rock band even when they reformed in 1992 are compared to a UK punk band who were subsequently assimilated into the Goth sphere. Tom Verlaine has never needed corpse paint, he's always looked to be at death's door. -------------
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 14:21
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^Except that Television was involved with the New York punk scene even not being representative of the genre itself. Tom Verlaine helped pen tunes for Patti Smith and with Richard Hell once being a member. As such, their style is rightly considered as "post-punk" like the Banshees'. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 16:17
Very few artists who played at CBGBs during the late 70's were part of a 'Punk' scene. (except the Ramones, and the mercifully forgotten 'Dead Boys' and 'Misfits' perhaps) This confusion even extends to the New York Dolls who are often cited as 'Punk' instead of the rather more fitting 'Proto Glam' It took until the early 80's before what might be deemed hardcore punk became synonymous with the venue. The Talking Heads, Blondie and Patti Smith were clearly hippy apostates who swapped seats of learning for the barbers chair. You are correct that the only member of Television with an extant contribution to 'Punk' was Richard Hell, who instigated ripped clothing and it's nihilistic mindset. He was also a crap bass player and singer so was eminently overqualified for the role. I'm always surprised that Malcolm Mclaren didn't take him back to London to provide a toilet trainer for Sid and Nancy. Interestingly, the reptilian svengali McLaren once managed the New York Dolls but was turned down flat by Television to perform the same function. The rest is... revisionist history "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones." - Tom Verlaine
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Posted By: LearsFool
Date Posted: December 21 2014 at 20:31
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^ That is the strange, unique, and in the end wonderful thing about the old NYC punk scene - half the bands were punk, the other half were any number of something different. Probably better called an "alternative" scene. Went with the Telly. Marquee Moon is just excellent, and did so much to move forward post - regardless of if it even can be counted as such - and helped spur on R.E.M.
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 22 2014 at 04:03
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Television are like The Fall and Père Ubu in that they actually predate the punk subculture becoming its own distinct identity, so calling them "post-punk" strikes me as rather awkward. Maybe "art punk" would be more appropriate, as snobby as that categorization might sound? (as it implies that regular punk isn't art) ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 22 2014 at 05:25
Perceptive post certainly as I had never drawn the obvious parallels between Television and the Fall before (both being habitually and lazily associated with all that is 'NY CBGB/Madchester' and all that is Proto Punk, Punk and Post Punk?. Perhaps it's a litmus test of any band's worth that they completely flount our attempts to classify their output as even a 'closest fit' to any available revisionist receptacle. Be that as it may, I've always held firm to the view that Punk in the US was an artistic/bohemian attitude which drew from literary sources like Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Artaud, Genet et al while the UK version was a distinctly left wing political phenomenon. The Brits (rightly or wrongly) viewed their stateside contemporaries as no more than careerist nihilists who would jump ship to become tomorrow's cultural columnists and chat show hosts while they got on with the more pressing business of bringing about lasting social change. Just for the sake of clarity I'm happy to confirm that 'Punk' originated in the USA and was subsequently imported to the UK by the otherwise, frankly spurious Malcolm McLaren -------------
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 22 2014 at 05:40
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I'm not really sure about that, the most overtly political of the early punk bands were the MC5 who came from the United States with the band's very name being a reference to their hometown of Detroit, Michigan. I can also think of plenty overtly political US hardcore punk bands from the 1980s: Black Flag, Born Against, The Dead Kennedys, Dirty Rotten Imbeciles, MDC, Minor Threat etc. even if they weren't quite as well-defined in their ideology as the UK crust/anarchopunk movement as exemplified by Amebix, Crass, Discharge, GBH or The Subhumans. Maybe it's that the British groups had somewhat more articulated ideological standpoints and their music also often was a degree more extreme which creates that impression? ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: December 22 2014 at 06:51
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I can't really comment on the MC5's Punk credentials as I thought they were a bit s.h.i.t. and always considered them a Psyche/garage band a la the Seeds, 13th Floor Elevators etc as illustrated on the various Nuggets compilations. As to their political agenda I will accede to your considerably better researched judgement. The Fugs were also more than just a tad s.h.i.t. and had a subversive left wing orientation (not dissimilar to the equally wretched Firesign Theatre) but clearly neither were the stuff from which Punk was hewn. The oft cited Stooges and New York Dolls had all the political nous of bare chested radio presenters and obeyed to the letter Rawk's well established star system protocol . (Turning rebellion into money - thanks Joe) The argument that any US band with an anti authoritarian message who played simple, stripped down rock music are by definition, the antecedents of politically engaged Punk has become very old very quickly and was redundant a LONG time ago. What's also just on the cusp of weird is that the avowedly archetypal US punk band circa 1979 'The Ramones' had as their creative fulcrum and spokesperson, one hard nose tea bagger in Johnny Ramone who embodied the American dream of prosperity and success and an upwardly social mobility facilitated by a social system we are asked to believe both he and his fan-base professed to abhor. The kid is alright? (thanks Pete) The USA has NEVER had a left wing government and precisely no-one can name a Punk band (before or since) who endorsed the regime of Margaret Thatcher. -------------
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: December 22 2014 at 07:01
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The MC5 started out as more of a political activist group than a music project, I think Crass had a similar genesis actually, and to be honest I don't like their artistic output as much as The Stooges precisely because it goes into message-before-music territory a bit too often for my taste. I still think it's an exaggeration to say the US punk scene wasn't a political subculture, even though there's a kernel of truth to it in that those punk bands who had the best thought out political stances in their lyrics were mostly British. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: memowakeman
Date Posted: December 23 2014 at 13:33
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Siouxsie :) ------------- Follow me on twitter @memowakeman |
Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: December 23 2014 at 14:42
Same here. Even their mid 80's onward albums always had at least a few cool tracks even if I'm not a huge fan of that era. That 'Juju' album is utter greatness and even influenced The Smith's Johnny Marr...and Morrisey was also a fan of it.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 23 2014 at 14:53
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Television!
Who were pre punk, btw. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: December 23 2014 at 15:36
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: January 01 2015 at 10:07
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Siouxsie ------------- |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: January 01 2015 at 10:48
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Television - pre Punk/New Wave ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 08:15
my vote will always go to Siouxsie and the Banshees...  ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 08:22
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Siouxsie all the way. Amazing band. Seen them live a few times, always fantastic. Tinderbox would be among my top albums of all time. In fact Juju and Hyeana wouldn't be far from that list either. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 09:39
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Television. I was never able to get into siouxsie. |