HolyMoly wrote: Extremely overrated, as much as I hate that word. I still like it, and I can't say Zappa ever put out a mediocre album, but I don't quite see how Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation are considered as highly as they are.

They are, by very far, the two most commercial sounding albums of all, and thus, by consequence, the ones that most folks tend to go to and have an easier time listening to.

Both are excellent, and they made for magnificent radio play in the early FM radio days for many years. Not only was the music well done, but the material was toned down a bit so more folk would stop looking for 4 letter words and complaint to the FCC, and in those days Frank Zappa was a major artist to look for these words!

For many of us, in so many ways, "seasoned" listeners, these two albums might not be as good as others, but I gave up, a long time ago, choosing a better/best album as something silly and just plain childish of myself!

HolyMoly wrote: ...  Roxy and Elsewhere, yes, I can see that. Even Hot Rats (which I'm not personally too fond of), but this album is short, lyrically random, and just feels like a glorified EP that meant to be something bigger and better. On the other hand, the sonic detail is impressive - he definitely wasn't halfassing it in that regard.

Roxy and Elsewhere showed to many folks what the bootlegs had been saying all along for almost 10 years ... that Frank Zappa was way better in concert than he was in any album, where he second guessed himself way too much! And I am a believer that this is the problem with the stuff in the Zappa Trust, that they do not know how to handle ... there is way too much "rehearsal" and "concert" material that has no title and no definition, and is likely to be a difficult listen to "rock audiences" and their "limited" listening. I don't think that the Trust wants to alienate the "rock fans" and in the process, they are limiting Frank's abilities and talents down to mediocre and sad.

HolyMoly wrote: ...I think this is Dweezil's favorite so the latest generation of Zappa fans tends to view it with added bias.

It would be ... it is the simplest of all the compositions for Dweezil to copy and redo. he does not ahve the ability to see things beyond the rock music, guitar song, concept. Everything else for him is just a "show" and not real music. Sorry ... I like ZpZ, but Dweezil needs some coming down to the level of music, and not star!

HolyMoly wrote: I was a daily visitor to the Zappa forum for a few years(moshkito used to do his thing over there too) where it was pretty much a given that the man was a god who could do no wrong. I subscribed to that view for 20+ years. Now I'm more critical of him, perhaps overly so.

I have always posted that this was not a star, or a rock this and that. Frank was Frank and that was that. The saddest thing I have ever seen is that his best music will never be heard, because the folks "inside" only know rock stars and rock this and that, and have no concept or idea what "music" is, and why Frank said the things he said about music, and even put down his guitar once when a fan screamed!

It's all being wasted, by lack of understanding. Guy Guden in one of his blogs had a nice hint of it, and I think some of the best work by that man has been hidden for too long, and will never be heard in our lifetimes!

It's what happens to most major artists, writers and musicians ... no one knows anything or can understand anything until after the person is dead!

Why are you surprised? Understanding is not a "now" thing, and never has been ... we have to gesticulate, masticate and regurgitate it 10,000 times before we can feel anything ... and personally, I do not think that is any artist's fault! it's a problem with listeners and their conditioning to only know what they hear and see ... there couldn't possibly be anything else in one's life!

zappaholic wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: [QUOTE=SteveG]For whatever reason, Zappa promoted this marginalization with idiotic later releases like "Valley Girl", "Jewish Princess" and "Dancing Fool". He explained that the reason for that was so that he could afford to do more "serious" stuff.  Pure economics. Apostrophe - good but not one of the best.  Still, as good an entry point as any.

I think there was more to it than that.

He could compare his staff (now now ... keep it clean please!!!) with that of a lot of stuff that Yo Yo Ma and many other "classical" turkeys out there would be playing in many college campus' and it would be easy to discern, who was the better and more interesting composer and writer.

However, because so much of this stuff was "electric", too much of academia has determined that it can not be considered classical music, or good music ... and Frank took some sadistic pleasure in making fun of that and related materials. Well, not to mention that for folks here this is just a song ... I'm sure Frank would have loved to hear that!

In many ways, Frank is the Fellini equivalent in music ... too much lard ... too much make up ... ugly as sin ... etc ... etc ... and many folks don't like it, and find it insulting. It's not pleasant in some cases, but I find a certain sadistic satisfaction in making fun of the huge number of buffoons that passed through our house that were considered "scholars" and "professors", all of which had piss and words that supposedly was better than Champagne and poop that smelled better than pork or beef! And the perfumes ... you don't even want to hear about that ... good thing you could not smell them on a Fellini film!