A general survey about P.A. and RYM
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101137
Printed Date: April 27 2024 at 23:39
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Topic: A general survey about P.A. and RYM
Posted By: Kati
Subject: A general survey about P.A. and RYM
Date Posted: January 29 2015 at 22:16
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I found this general music survey about P.A. and RYM recently on the internet. It's interesting, although written in 2008 it's still very relevant today considering nothing much if anything has changed. It's very much detailed, here is their Abstract summary index first page: A general survey of social software is presented with a focus in social music cataloging services. Two example systems review and rating functionality are compared in detail. We observed a case of distorted product ratings, where overactive fan base promoted a single album at the expense of others. Despite the potential for unfair ratings, social cataloging systems are a promising form of participatory media, challenging and complementing traditional, professional reviews used in printmedia. Some suggestions are provided to issue the reliability and fairness of individual reviews. I downloaded the pdf report, however here is the link: http://users.jyu.fi/~minurmin/opiskelu/web20/ratings.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://users.jyu.fi/~minurmin/opiskelu/web20/ratings.pdf
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Replies:
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 00:12
^ Thank you, Kati. If you had not posted that report, I would not have learned that King Crimson was in former Prog Archives' Art Rock section 
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 00:13
hahaha! Sventonio, I read that too  my pleasure and thank you too to you. Hugs
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Svetonio wrote:Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 02:50
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^ Kati, this would be slightly of the topic but for me it's a kind of confirmation of my own hypothesis that *Eclectic Prog* the term was invented due to the serious problem that was - where to place King Crimson, the great band with so eclectic catalogue? with invented term *Eclectic Prog*, the problem is solved and everybody's happy. Personally, I do like that *Eclectic Prog* the term as the name of the PA sub-genre as well, and I'm going to take this exceptional opportunity to express my gratitude to the one who came up with the idea for the *Eclectic prog* sub-genre - whoever it was. However, all these unnecessary doubts regarding the sub-genre that not exist outside this site, would not exist if back then someone get very simple idea to make the national categories - same as *Rock Progressive Italiano*. Thus, King Crimson would have been placed immediately where they belong - in the British prog category; all Polish bands would be in the category of Polish prog, ex-Yugoslavia prog bands should be in ex-Yugoslav prog section (for example, my fav ex-Yugoslav band Smak is in PA' JR/F section although Smak actually have nothing less eclectic catalogue than e.g. KC) then Spanish progressive rock would be in PA's Rock Progresivo Español section, U.S. bands would be in U.S. Progressive rock section and so on. Of course, some will say that it can not cover these definitions of certain styles, such as progressive psychedelia, jazz rock, symphonic rock, progressive metal, heavy prog, progressive electronic etc., but these stylistic definitions (and the time frames also) anyway would be certainly written in the biographies of the bands and in the reviews of the albums. Just my two cents |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 03:13
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^So if one is looking for say progressive electronic they will have to wade through individual countries and study biographies to see if it's there? Doesn't compute to be honest. I do however miss the opportunity of band listing by country. If we somehow could implement that as a feature on PA, I'd be a happy bunny  ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 03:59
Thank you ! It was me who came up with the Eclectic Prog definition, a long time ago. I remember that couple of times I had to defend it in other forums, where people had taken exception to my "invention". |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 04:04
Well, nothing is perfect ... However, I do not think it would be a big problem to find e.g. Tangerine Dream in supposed *German Prog* section.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 04:16
Congrats again! It was really ingenious solution for KC (and many others) in that pretty unique categorization of the PA' sub-genres.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 04:53
Forgive my confusion here but PA's Eclectic Prog definition is credited to one 'Ricochet (Victor)' Sue the swines Raff... ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:00
Sorry, I did come up with the WORD, not the definition we have here on the site. Actually, I did not have a hand in writing any of the three former Art Rock definitions. But I claim credit for the word, and I believe there are a few people who can vouch for that. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:14
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hah. I can claim the process was not an easy one hahaha. Raff's suggestion of the term 'Eclectic' was what we when with... but IIRC the word 'eclectic' was not without a LOT of discussion and disagreements. That was a hard one to deal with, the hardest of the three by far (and was definined and managed magnificiently by Vic and his later crew) because unlike the other two we created... there were not defining characteristics. It was one definited in a way by the LACK of them. I know Vic always disgreed with me but I thought instead of one large dumping ground.. we created one smaller one. If it doesn't x y or z... then it must be 'eclectic'. Just like Art Rock had been handled by the site for years, just at a vaster larger scale haha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Argonaught
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 05:18
------------- Thank you, Fripp, for our daily Prog (Red 39:54) |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 06:20
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One thing is for certain: Wish You Were Here (along with Animals, Meddle, and other Floyd albums) is hailed as the classic on both sites. Pink Floyd is hailed as the prog band. And that Pink Floyd RULES.  ------------- 
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 06:43
That feature exists (in a slightly limited form). Go to Top PA Albums from the main page, and change the search settings to 250 albums and a specific country, and it will at least get you the 250 albums for that country. Here are the http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=&scountries=56&sminratings=0&smaxratings=0&sminavgratings=0&smaxresults=250&x=87&y=3#list" rel="nofollow - 38 for Denmark as prove :) ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 06:45
David, I'l make you happy today  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 06:49
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Thanks you guys!! Instant bookmark right there  It would however be cool if we had a feature on the frontpage that did all of this. A link that took you to listing by country. Maybe I can persuade Max. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:27
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Nice of you to find and post this Sonia. In all honesty though, I have no idea what was the purpose or scale of this article, it's written as if it was some sort of thesis or scientific paper but the contents is pretty poor, it's hardly anything beyond a descriptive article with some minimum of background search work. The introduction summary says "Some suggestions are provided to issue the reliability and fairness of individual reviews" which I would assume could be its most interesting output, but it doesn't actually provide any meaningful suggestions to address that issue. If this was intending to serve some serious purpose and I was their mentor I would demand quite much more from them than this.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:31
Thank you, Gerinski, I was just thinking of you and posted a comment at the same time too to you. Spooky
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:32
Music is not confined by arbitrary lines on a map.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 07:52
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596
 If we can't fix this in the software then surely a link to this thread is an easy thing to do...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 08:10
...all that aside and ... ...an interesting article and quite in depth considering the authors' analysis was conducted from outside the system as it were. We can never eradicate fan-biased attempts at album ranking manipulation from a system where anyone can submit a rating and/or review, but from my lengthy and extensive experience in dealing with manipulation and alleged cases of manipulation I don't believe that it is as harmful as many people think it is given the measures we have to contain and regulate it. During my time as an Admin I was as much concerned by the over-reaction to it as I was by the deliberate manipulation itself. Unfortunately, dealing with the perception that fan-bias is detrimental to an album is a lot harder. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 08:14
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I agree a 100% with that last bit Dean ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 08:23
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I only skimmed the article, but it appears to be a well reasoned analysis, touching on important features that can fairly assess the value of a site. I didn't see anything at first that I really disagreed with. I definitely empathized with the constructive criticism that PA can be a bit confusing to the first time visitor - because I remember how long it took me to "get" this site. Its design is not optimal and finding stuff can be difficult. I'm no web designer so I don't know how I would improve it, but as a user I can relate. Because of this, I've always tried to give newbies the benefit of the doubt when they post things in the wrong forum or post questionable reviews (for example, when I first started writing reviews, I didn't know that anyone would actually read it unless they were specifically searching for reviews by that artist... I didn't know about the "front page"). PA does have all its bases covered: detailed writeups of policies, guidelines, genre definitions, etc, and all the links work and so on... but it's not the most user-friendly site I've come across, and it does take a while to learn the ropes. Not sure how RYM sizes up in this regard because I don't use that site. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 10:35
  "Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ... "
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 11:59
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:12
Why this instead of the more informative post you subsequently deleted? It is relevant for many reasons, least of all is the pedestrian speed in which things happen around here. 2008 is like yesterday in PA years, and frankly, aside from a minor change in the collaborator weighting nothing much else has changed in rating and reviewing system, or the manner in which fan-bias manipulation occurs, or the look and feel of the site in general since 2008. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:15
Oh yes... only this afternoon I came across 3 screens full of calculations in a single post by you. The math behind the rating/review balance was your thing in this case.  ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:16
Takes getting used to as well - as far as user-friendliness is concerned there's a lot to gain on music sites. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:17
 ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: January 30 2015 at 12:33
The line between Krautrock & RPI runs through the the Alps while Canterbury has a 30 mile circle around it in Kent. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 06:40
I deleted all except what I felt was the core of my post because it was unsubstantiated and would have required more effort on my part to pass on my thoughts in order to contribute in a constructive and valuable manner to this - yes - interesting topic.
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 07:35
A minor change im the weighting factors of various reviewer groups can have a profound effect on the overall album ranking. Over the years I have seen sudden, abrupt changes in top 100 which can only be attributed to changes in the weights. I assume and accept that the PA team has favorable weightings in the ranking process after all this is one way to thank them for their efforts. Fans and haters are found in tail regions of an album's rating distribution and can be (are?) weighted disfavorably. The rating and reviewing system of PA is not transparent on this, at least not to me, but then I haven't searched this site in an attempt to find the weighting factors. Edit: one can argue that fan boys and haters cancel out in the statistics but often the former tend to be a larger group than the latter. In a more recent case, dare I say Corvus Stone II, the ranking appeared to be suspiciously high in the beginning (in my view*) but then, as always, levelled out, as the collaborators' reviews started to clock in. Here there's always the risk that the 'higher weighted reviewers' abuse their weighting to rate an album a few notches lower (or higher) in order to 'restore order' in their (PA) universe. *Perhaps I just didn't 'get' the music, but repeated listening convinced me that this emperor in fact did not wear any clothes (someone just had to say so before it was realised by all).
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:32
As the article stated, early votes and reviews for an album tend to come from people who like the album. This is perfectly reasonable since if an album doesn't move you then you will be less motivated to write anything about it. From my analysis of the rating trend with time of several different albums I have concluded that you cannot make any valid judgement from an album average until there are at least 30 ratings and it can take up to 100 ratings before the trend starts to "level-out". Personally I would not include an album with less than 50 ratings in any chart. As I have said many times, the best indicator of a bands true rating is not the average, but shape of the rating distribution (the article also used this as an indicator), which does not take into account any reviewer/collab weighting:
In the above example you can see that the distribution is neither a normal distribution nor a power-law distribution but a combination of the two. This is because the album has been rated by two distinct groups of people - band-fans and (ambivalent) Prog-fans, but (interestingly) not by haters. So from this you can conclude that if you are a fan of the band then you'll love the album (5-stars), but if you an average Prog fan you think it is good, but not great (3-stars).
------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:38
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^I think the problem with this ratio, Dean, is that there is a fine line between an album being "good but not essential." I cannot come up with a more suitable wording for this 3 star rating. Perhaps someone else can. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 09:47
The wording of all five rating options has been a bone of contention since the year dot. The problem arises from 3-star rating being the median, which most non-mathematicians would also regard as being the average (i.e., mean) value. In a biased system the median will not be the mean value, which is why the QWR (Query Weighted Rating) uses a value for the site-average that is higher than "3". Simply put, a 3-star album is a less than average album. ------------- What? |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:04
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^Agreed, but perhaps classifying a 3 star album as 'decent' instead of 'good' would help. Perhaps not, as all subjective opinions are subject to wide interpretation. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:24
Hmmmm... so the mathematical definition is completely different from what people see based on the names of the stars. I've read the phrase 'a 3-star album is not a bad album' a couple of times this week, which is not what you say here. Glad you're on the math of this, Dean, I'd go crazy straight away. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 10:36
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^Come on, Angelo. It's only math rock. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 11:05
Actually, the phrases "less than average" and "not a bad album" are not mutually exclusive since "average" is not a good/bad threshold. As Steve says, it's subjective, and with that it is also relative. A 5-star album is better than a 4-star album, and both are better than a 3-star album. All of three of them can be good albums: it is simply that the 3-star album isn't as good as the 4-star album; just as the 4-star album isn't as good as the 5-star album. When we take all the ratings cast by all the members of the site and calculate the average rating that we give to all the albums on the site it comes out at somewhere around 3.75. Basically, even though we have a 5-star system we concentrate most of our votes on 3, 4, and 5-star ratings. As the article says, our ratings follow a power-law distribution. So the 3-star median point is less than the 3.75-star mean point and any album that scores less than 3.75 average is a "less than average" album by our standards, and that can also be called "not a bad album". ------------- What? |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 11:40
| ^ that's also because, happily, 1-star stuff has less chance of being released and purchased by somebody than 5-star stuff, and 2-star stuff less chance than 4-star stuff, so it's only normal that the average of all released and rated stuff is higher than the median value 3. Otherwise it would mean that there's a lot of crap being released and purchased by people who can then rate it. |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:08
Bands with a large fan (or the opposite!) base will receive skewed ratings for a longer period. A high rating average would imply a small standard deviation (had the rating followed a normal distribution due to the upper rating limit of 5 - perhaps an upper rating limit of 10 would reduce the skewness?). Using the mean favors the fans (or haters) while the median reduces the skewness effect i.e. disfavors the extreme views. Of course, you could encompass all by stating the mode, the mean, the average, the standard deviation and the skewness (and probably more measures) of an album's rating
 . But to what purpose? who really cares about an albums rating as long as it just indicates how 'good' it is? So in the end does it really matter if PA use the average, mean or whatever to rank an album? |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:24
Please define 'average': aritmetic mean, median, mode? And what do you mean by the 'shape of the rating distribution': the actual curve showing the distribution or some derived measures of that distribution? Of course the shape of the rating distribution is the best indicator of an album's rating but how would you present this to those who visit PA's site unless by some derived measure(s, like the 'average', standard deviation etc) ? Notwithstanding this, it would be neat with a curve showing the distribution on the site - but wouldn't it scare of potential PA members
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:36
This was covered in my posts, the average used here is the arithmetic mean.
The actual curve.
Yeah. ------------- What? |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:42
This is directed at Kati who appears to continue her CS II crusade under a different banner in this offshoot thread of another thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101074. I could be mistaking? Hugs to you Kati
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 12:44
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:05
Honestly, I don't care much about an article from 2008. This is 2015. That's why I inserted: (I probably should read it... sorry I haven't
) |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:49
You sir, are a waste of my time and energy. Read the damn article or stfu. ------------- What? |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: January 31 2015 at 13:57
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^And this is within your socalled PA 'regulation'
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Posted By: Andy Webb
Date Posted: February 02 2015 at 22:03
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51596  ------------- http://ow.ly/8ymqg" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: February 03 2015 at 09:16
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Very interesting! Thank you for posting that, Katie. It would seem that PA member/contributors are a bit more judicious in their ratings--probably due to their more serious commitment to "quality" versus "popularity." This is probably why I visit PA thirty times more often than RYM. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: February 04 2015 at 19:25
I think this is pretty fascinating stuff - and my geek apologizes for this. My take is that this is pretty common behavior for new releases, and I would posit that this behavior may be predictable. That is, if you measure the rating at some time point close to album release, you may be able to predict the rating that album eventually settles into. To test this though we would need snap shots of the ratings over time. Do we know if these exist?
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Posted By: Kazza3
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 04:13
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Yeah, you've posted a lot of interesting information, Dean, thanks! |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 04:41
Interesting question you pose there, tboyd1802. I would like to see PA have a statistics group that did this kind of research. With all these rating data available - and properly processed - PA could become a great source for presenting the evolution in peoples' prog tastes. Who knows, 20 years from now top 100 will look entirely different from now. I agree that snap shots of the ratings over time would be a step forward in the statistcis department. However, this kind of data processing it not performed in PA as far as I know.
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 04:56
Ratings that result in an average near the bounds (1 and 5) should have a narrow standard deviation provided a standard rating distribution which in reality is not the case as a long tail will be present at the opposite limit (1 for high averages, 5 for small averages). More elasticity in the ratings permitted, say up to 10 instead of 5 would allow the rating to become 'more' normally distributed. Upper and lower limits on the ranking is part of the problem. Of course, you could shift highly or low rated albums' distribution curve so that the deviation is allowed upwards or downwards; for instance, shifting the curve to enable a 5% (or less) fractile to coincide with the limit.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 05 2015 at 05:24
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The problem there Kazza is the sample sizes for most albums are too small to have any real statistical significance. As has already been noted albums with less than say 50 votes will have a disproportionate number of 5-star ratings. That inevitably shifts the site-average upwards because the number of albums with less than 50 votes is statistically significant. However, as the article in the OP observed, voting here often tends to follow a power distribution rather than a normal distribution, because all high-rated albums must inevitably have a high proportion of 5-star votes. I suspect it is more likely to be truncated normal distribution rather than a power distribution which, as Dan's post has suggested, is due to the limited bounds of a 5-star system. Ratings are comparative - we rate an album compared to "something" even if we are not sure what that "something" is, or whether it is the same as everyone else's "something". Normalising the site average to "100" would be to assume that everyone rated an album relative to this site average, rather than the median (i.e., presumed average) of 3-stars. Yet the distribution shapes would suggest that most people rate albums relative to 5-stars. That is, "Essential" becomes the norm.
Opeth ~ Pale Communion average=4.25 from 522 ratings:
This distribution is not uncommon, practically every other album in the all-time Top 100 has this shape because those albums score higher than the site average. Once you start looking at albums that score around the site average then you start to see the normal distribution appear but even that is truncated, for example: Pendragon ~ Believe average 3.54 from 339 ratings:
King Crimson ~ Three of a Perfect Pair average 3.24 from 823 ratings:
So what can see here is a normal distribution (that would span more than 5 bins) sliding down the 1-5 star window. As we get down to the lower averages the truncation occurs at the bottom end: ELP ~ Love Beach average 2.06 from 485 ratings:
However, I do not believe that having a wider set of ratings would change this scoring from 0 to 10 would still result in a disproportionate number of top scores. Personally I prefer raw data to adjusted or manipulated data so I can see any anomalous voting (double peaks for example). Also, I don't use the numbers to compare one album against another. Is Pale Communion that much better than Three Of A Perfect Pair? Is it better than "average"? Is it better than the "average" Opeth album even? The votes would suggest that it is as good as Blackwater Park... ------------- What? |
Posted By: Kazza3
Date Posted: February 06 2015 at 03:52
Yeah, of course the ratings are not the be all and end all, but they are a prominent feature of the site, and even if the current system is fine and we never feel a need to change it, it's interesting to think about. Thanks very much to you and earlyprog for your answers.
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Posted By: tboyd1802
Date Posted: February 06 2015 at 17:57
If we could make this happen, count me in
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Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: February 06 2015 at 18:16
Just to clarify one point, my understanding is that collaborator ratings receive a higher weight not to thank us, but to trust that we are less prone to manipulating ratings. I believe that you need to show a decent contribution to the site also a competency in your contributions to be invited into the ranks of collaborators. There is an understanding that the collaborators are working to bring legitimacy to the site as a whole.
It's not a way to thank us, it's a way to lessen the impact of the less informed, the fan boys and the haters. ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: February 06 2015 at 21:59
That was a huge undertaking. At the time Art Rock was basically the sub for bands who didn't fit anywhere else. So as you can image it was huge and consisted of many strange bedfellows. So the collabs went in, sorted it out and created three new subs. Even though the ones appointed to the task took the heaviest load, it did involve all of us as some artists did need to move to other existing subs. We had just done an audit of Symphonic as well and this all happened when I was new to the role. It was quite an education. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: February 07 2015 at 11:05
Hugs to me? Are you for real? I did not want to come back here but read this via email. I am an individual not a band. Stop saying my name and connecting me with a band who I happen to love very much! |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 00:29
| Reading back all these msg's inc. yours Dean on other forums, I had no idea anyone had tainted me on your private collab forum link, saying I was asking for 5 star reviews. This makes me so sad, I only ever asked Lucas and Angelo for a review on CS first album, also asked Juris through fb (fb name) aka VanDerGraafGenerator because he was a friend of Connor, who to date I think know that Connor is one of the nicest clever person's to date I have ever met. Thus total first album asked 3 people for a review, second album I have not asked anyone to review it.. I am sad because reading back on a lot of things said and my happy ignorant replies, now I feel like a fool, I was an optimist and really loved it here. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 06:04
Continue being an optimist, Sonia. There are quite enough cynics, fanatics and out-and-out nuts on this forum. You needn't feel foolish or change your attitude here. And I do hope you decide to continue posting on PA. Like the endless whining over statistics, we need your optimism to counterbalance the cynicism; otherwise, it will be a darker place. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 06:26
I don't know what I have done to deserve specific mention in your post Sonia or where (or who) you have got this idea from. I make it a specific point of honour never to discuss what occurs in the CZ, SCZ and AZ or what is said in PMs anywhere public, and that includes FB. [in fact I never, ever discuss anything to do with the PA on FB]. Private conversations are called "private" for a fu*king reason. I have said on many occasions that it is okay for band members and their friends & family to post reviews and rate albums as long as they are honest and upfront about it. I have also suggested that it is also okay for people to ask others to rate and/or review an album as long as they don't try and influence those people into giving higher ratings or more favourable reviews than they believe the album warrants. I would also add that the prospective rater and/or reviewer should feel under no obligation to comply with anyone's wishes. That aside, Conor (only one "n" in his name) is a good kid and a damn good writer, his presence here is missed, he poked the hornets nest here and ran away before he got stung but that is by-the-by and not something to discuss here.
------------- What? |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 08:51
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Everyone and their dog's understudy hairdresser's personal trainer on PA got asked to review the second Corvus Stone album. This type of carpet bombing spamming for reviews just chafes everyone's teats and would ordinarily be potentially counter productive to positive appraisals of this music from any discerning and objective reviewer. (I opened a separate thread devoted to the acceptability or otherwise of such marketing practices recently) The album's current score of 4.09 however, clearly contradicts this rationale and seems contrarily inflated by less than assiduous reviews. Yes, that IS judgmental isn't it?. I received a PM asking me to review the album which I flatly declined. I then bought the album based on a You Tube video for Boots for Hire which I enjoyed hugely. I've not submitted a written review yet but would hazard three sparklies from this habitually grudging rodent i.e. good but clearly NOT essential (CS II is a devoted and sincere fans' record, NOT an original artist's one) None of the foregoing spamming can be attributed to Sonia so where the accusations of reviewer manipulation stem from is at best obscure at at worst delusional. As Dean says, no-one on PA has any problem with band members, their friends and family submitting reviews as long as they don't pretend to be disinterested third parties. -------------
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 09:01
| I personally get annoyed when I see newbies/zero posters in a review claiming that this or that album is the greatest thing since the Pill or something like that. I see this once again with Drifting Sun. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 09:50
In the early 70's it WAS considered "art rock", as was YES, when it made it. I almost would suggest that the majority of stuff on the early FM radio in the US was all "art rock" ... and stopped being that when FM became just another commercial station! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 10:01
Liar! i wasn't asked!
  
I don't really see an issue with that, since in the long run other folks will add their own to it! I mean, I was thinking that after your response I would not want to listen or bother with that album at all, and I am pretty sure that the majority of folks on PA are much more discerning and caring about the music and the art form than that! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 10:05
I currently have King Crimson & Yes categorized as "Art Rock" in my iTunes. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 13:56
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Interesting article! In Chicago during the 1970s, we typically referred to Yes, ELP etc. as "art rock." Sometimes the term "theater rock" was also used, and this more broadly applied to Alice Cooper, David Bowie etc. I never even heard of the term "prog" until well after Y2K. King Crimson is an interesting case study - many times they are symphonic ("In The Wake of Poseidon"), other times they are jazz-rock fusion, or totally improvised....I suppose "eclectic" is as good a term as any. However, all prog seems to be "eclectic" at the core, so these labels seem to be very loosely applied.
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Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: March 23 2015 at 02:59
However, I wanted to point out something else. Back in 2007, Prog Archives had the "art rock" section as a separate genre - probably the acts a la Roxy Music, 10cc, David Bowie, Kate Bush and so on. As King Crimson was there, what was ridiculous, I pointed this:
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 24 2015 at 23:16
Dean, as you know I cannot see what was said about me, although am shocked to find out of what was said behind my back, this was crushing. By no means I meant you had anything to do with the lies and you surely are aware how much I like you among all members here? I thought you were suspicious of my intentions because of some comments you made concerning the band and now clearly I feel really bad, like the most stupid ignorant idiot too, feel really bad again for being wrong. I always seem to get things so wrong, I speak my mind always from my heart and in my post I named you too to discuss this but your reply makes me feel really bad now, obviously deservingly so! I did not mean it to come out that way. I swear. xxx
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 24 2015 at 23:25
ExittheLemming, thank you However lol you cheeky sod To be honest, I think it's a positive for any band to ask people that they do not know for a review This gives the band unbiased reviews, I see no negative in this Certainly in P.A. content a good thing. As you stated "Everyone and their dog's understudy hairdresser's personal trainer on PA got asked to review" it went beyond that by asking reviewers if they too would like to review their album. This is not a bad thing I believe and I think you'll agree with me too here. Big hug to you, ExittheLemming. Again thank you, so much! xxxx |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 24 2015 at 23:29
hahahaha! moshkito! That's so funny! Without asking the band, I can send you a cd and meanwhile a download too if you want to review it? I'd be glad to send you their album and thrilled to get a review from you? Really! hugs,Sonia
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 24 2015 at 23:34
The Dark Elf, thank you so SO much for your beautiful encouraging comment. This song is for you. I think Gilmour never sang as high as this ever. Such beautiful emotional song and this I must dedicate to you, thank you very much xxxx Dark Globe by Syd Barrett - cover by David Gilmour My head kissed the ground
I was half the way down treading the sand Please, please lift a hand I'm only a person whose armbands beat on his hands Hang tall, won't you miss me? Wouldn't you miss me at all? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GCM6EV9vtA&feature=youtu.be&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GCM6EV9vtA&feature=youtu.be&list=PLMyHPEAFkfwPrHo40qr1-pvZEZcejDeOw |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 00:59
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ExittheLemming
This song is for you Pink Floyd-The Gunner's Dream (Lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy0ABjAP0TI&list=PLFEDE25F4A684239E&index=6" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy0ABjAP0TI&list=PLFEDE25F4A684239E&index=6
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 01:07
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This beautiful sad song is so special and dedicated to Dean Pink Floyd Final Cut (11) - The Final Cut https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e-yO6_FbtI&index=11&list=PLFEDE25F4A684239E" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e-yO6_FbtI&index=11&list=PLFEDE25F4A684239E that guitar tune at 3.19min kills me awwwww
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 03:20
Well, that's a little clearer. Don't feel bad about it, it's a misunderstanding that's all. Frankly I cannot muster the ergs to try and track down what, if anything, was said in the collab zone - most discussions of this nature are usually done in the Report Abuse section of the Public forum - but even if I did I wouldn't be able to comment on it here. Remember the first three rules of Fight Club? Well, the CZ operates in a similar policy: what happens in the CZ stays in the CZ. And there a many good reasons for this, least of all being it allows us collabs to biatch and squabble without making a public spectacle of ourselves, but it also allows us to discuss sensitive issues openly and freely without fear of causing upset or kicking off a public scene. If I were still an Admin I would be far more interested in who broke the first rule of fight club and why than anything we've discussed here. However, I'm not an Admin and I seldom visit the CZ these days so I couldn't care less. I "fell-out" with someone I thought was a good friend over a similar indiscretion and I'm not prepared to go through all that BS again. I must point out however that anything that is discussed in the Collaborators private area of the forum is not "behind your back", it is "in camera" - you are not privy to what was said but that does not mean that the matter was being dealt with unfairly. That no disciplinary warning was issued as a result (I presume) suggests it was either a storm in a tea cup, summarily dismissed as unsubstantiated or not considered to be an issue. I should also point out from a topological perspective "behind your back" is actually in front of you (think about it ).I'm not much of a touchy-feely person but ... ------------- What? |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 03:59
hahaha awww Dean, your last comment doesn't fool me, you are my favorite smoochie.. cute sweet grumpy you are really sweet (grumpy funny) yes but more sweet really nice) I am so happy you replied.P.S. I figured out was more or less said about me, due to forum comments, that was obvious and I cornered a few close friends too, who had no choice in consideration towards me told me more or less what had happened as I refused being left in the dark especially when it concerns me, things I don't understand why. I still do not understand what happened and what was said. no one broke PA rules. It's all very odd and confusing. To be clear here, I never ever asked for 5 star reviews ever. Album 2 I did not ask anyone for a review. Album one only asked Lucas and Angelo here on PA and asked VanderGraafGenerator aka Juris on fb. I would never do that, ask for higher rating, I'd be to ashamed to do that. Only other person I've discussed the ratings was Horizons on the first album but that was after he reviewed the album and he was so nice too to me. xxxx I have discussed lightly as general comment ratings with Aussi-bird-brother too in private but only because he is my friend, again all this on the first album release, this one new second Album I did not want to put anyone on the spot. Another big hug to you, Dean
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 04:18
Thank you Sonia. I've never had a song dedicated to me -------------
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:01
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I deleted my comment here because it was redundant, really.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:05
My pleasure, really,
thank you, ExittheLemming |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:35
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I will stop mentioning the above, because even I had enough of it and I do not want to drag this longer or be a downer towards others nor do I want any pity either. Let's all focus on moozik, this makes us really happy!
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:41
Noted. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 05:42
mhwoaahhxxx ty |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 15:57
Hi Exit! First of all I have to say thank you for buying the album. As I say to everyone, it means a lot to us and always will. Now I have to ask why you said this: " I received a PM asking me to review the album which I flatly declined."? You are not the first to say this when I know you weren't asked at all. If you have a PM asking you to review it, please copy it here. I would be happy if you did! I guess I approached about 15 Collaborators/Reviewers on here. If you're worried about our reviews by fans, then count the collab reviews as a percentage and then check a few other bands. I think you will see absolute proof that I was VERY keen to get reviews here by non fans. The reviews have been fair and the collab/Fan balance is very good! I never comment here or anywhere else about specific bands doing "prog by numbers". I find it all very nice but quite forgettable. Many of those bands hit the top 10 here every year. It is not for me to say that many listeners of "prog", like what they know, just as in the popular music and movie world. We don't do what sells(because it is boring) and therefore, I do ask people here if they would like to hear the albums and that does cost us money. I NEVER ask anyone to do a review. That would be kind of silly. Bands further up the food chain, have independent record companies who send out huge numbers of albums to get reviews(They charge all that to the bands of course). That way, the band aren't accused of doing too much promotion because they pay someone else to do it! Many of those bands also pay for artwork, guests, production and brick wall mastering but again, we don't. We feel that anyone who is paid for, doesn't really care about what a band does, just about the money they earn for services rendered. Unless a band is well known, then care is added in to that mix. You need to understand that this weird world we know as prog, is not easy for musicians. In fact, we are mostly pretty clueless as to how to get heard at all. I put a lot of thought in to the problem and the potential problem of being accused of daring to promote at all. We certainly have had our fair share of criticism on that front, so I was right to try and avoid it by asking you guys! Believe me... If we wanted to, we could ask MANY fans to write reviews. We don't! We have encouraged a small number who truly love what we do, to do so if they feel so inclined. MUCH more than that, I have suggested to many that they should join PA and get involved. Unfortunately, most just enjoy liking stuff on Facebook. Apart from wondering why you say you were asked to review it, you also say a youtube video of "Boots for hire" and I wonder where you found that? We haven't got one. I hope you are enjoying the album more as time goes on. Both albums seem to be that way. Colin ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 16:39
I knew it! just as I thought
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Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 16:43
Dean, is that you?  |
Posted By: earlyprog
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 17:01
That just about says it all. I get the picture. Do you really have to continue discussing this in the open.
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Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: March 25 2015 at 18:09
Earlyprog, What I discuss is none of your business and should not concern you, now considering that you are so inquisitive if you scrolled further down on the forum I also clearly stated that I did not want to keep mentioning this as even I AM GETTING BORED WITH MYSELF. And for the second time, leave me alone.
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 02:03
I was asked to review the 2nd Corvus Stone album by a member called maxfax on 26th October 2014 at 05:27 who stated he was 'doing promotion' Are you therefore saying a PA member is promoting the album without your consent? I've also PM'd you a copy of the original message from maxfax.The Youtube video for 'Boots For Hire' has subsequently been removed but I think I listened to the track from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5rRqVRF9YU&list=PLoRNXsrOuZ-VFPxCn5uOpb-r1qWxNMsgU&index=19 -------------
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 02:21
| For what its worth I am a fan of Corvus Stone ( Colin is aware of this) and bought the second album ( I gave the first a 4 star review) I like CS2 and would probably give that a 4 star review also if I ever pull my finger out and get round to it. No one here has suggested I should review it either in PM or on the forum. I am quite grateful for that as I am quite lazy! |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:07
Thank you for this reply Exit. It could explain a lot of the problems we have had here. Whoever the hell maxfax is, is clearly spam or something. He has no name and asks for email adresses. Obvious spam to me but how many believed him and treated us badly on here based on that? I would never ever write a one line request to someone, or ask for an email address. What the hell is maxfax up to? Anyone else had requests like that about us or any other band? ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:11
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While he has never posted in the forum he has rated a few albums - every spammer leaves footprints in the sand that the Admins can follow. ------------- What? |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:17
Thank you Richard! Yes I know well that you bought the album but not that you're lazy! I have now found out that someone who rated a bunch of albums on here "MAXFAX", has sent a request to exitthelemming, to do a review and asking for his email address. That must have gone to others too. Someone is deliberately trying to destroy our band? Anyone I ever contacted on here gets a real, unique and considered message and never a request to review us. Damn it's hard this prog business! ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:24
This is all very sad I had no idea till now, why we get bad press from some on here. Now I find out that someone is offering OUR album to people on here in a very stupid way and being believed. Now we have a reputation as self promoters from hell. How can that be reversed? Is that happening to other bands too? Anyone I REALLY contacted about any album, gets a sensible message NOT asking for a review and will confirm that. I look forward to a day when reviews don't all start "I was asked to review this album" ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:24
As Dean states, maxfax has, somewhat unusually for a purported spammer, submitted some rating only reviews (and gave CS II 5 stars) I'd recommend you report this to the Admins so that they can investigate what looks like some uber dodgy behaviour. Feel free to ask them to contact myself for corroboration etc BTW I would never judge any music based on whatever nefarious means it was brought to my attention (that would just be prejudicial and I will review CS II as fairly and objectively as any grudging hate filled rodent could be expected to )-------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 07:30
No press is bad press; in fact, I suggest you win an award that Beyoncé was nominated for and then get into a fistfight with Kanye West during the acceptance speech. I'd pay to see that. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 08:17
I agree about the any press thing in some ways. The thing is that I would walk away from(and have) anything that makes me feel bad or I don't like. One thing I am not and never will be, is an annoying spammer or self promoter. I'll never say that any album I am involved in is "great". Conversely, I'll also never put down a musician or album publicly either. Music to me, is fun and mysterious, not a commercial enterprise. Um... I guess that defines what prog is supposed to be? ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: odinalcatraz
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 08:23
We love rats! (we proved it in one of our videos!) We never get upset by bad reviews. That isn't the problem. The problem is when rumours are put in public about us acting like fools with over promotion. Nobody likes self promoters, least of all me! Well Dean knows now and hopefully that will be passed on to all prog reviewers and collaborators. If there is a maxfax, then you can be damn sure there are more of them! As far as ratings, Daily people sign up, rate 20 to 400 albums and disappear. That is the real problem on PA. That actually is dodgy and has a massive effect on albums. ------------- http://www.corvusstone.com |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 26 2015 at 08:34
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it has a small effect on albums but it is bad for the image of the PA. ------------- What? |