do you like arilyn virtual reality

I love this song.  It is a short breather between epics on SEbtP.  It offers a mood change from the previous song and is part of the concept of the album (this particular song representing deception). 

In the early days, the band wrote songs like this to serve as breaks in their records (which I think makes the albums more diverse and therefor more progressive.....it's always nice to have a short love song amidst 10-minute "epics").  Between songs, Peter usually had to change costumes at the live shows, so Phil and the others would handle vocals on one of these short songs while Peter changed (More Fool Me, For Absent Friends, Harlequin).  So there is actually a legitimate purpose to these songs.

I think that it is snobby when reviewers take points off rating of this album only because of More Fool Me  and  I Know What I Like.  They are not simply 'poppy' commercial songs, but crucial parts of the record as a whole.

It's boring and out of place in a Gabriel era album, maybe it's right place would be  on Invisible Touch for those who like soft adult ballads.

Iván

That's the beauty of music and musical taste, it's not the same in all of us, I hate that song, IMO represents the first step Genesis took towards the awful 3 men era.

But again, it's only my opinion and I find it totally out of place in Selling England, if it was in Invisible Touch I woukldn't worry because I already don't like that album and don't listen it (I have a new sealed LP that my sis gave me one birthday) so I wouldn't need to skip that song every toime I play SEBTP.

Simple logic

Iván

Very true Ivan, I agree. Music would be very boring if we all had the same tastes.

^ What a ******!

I happen to love the song and think it fits into SEBTP perfectly! It is certainly nothing like anything on Abacab and has the sound of the era it was written in! Great!

More Fool Me sounds out of place on the SEBTP album....a lilting folksy instrumental in its place would have strengthened the album's theme.  Instead, we're treated to a peek into the future....not a bad song, the harmonic vocals are quite nice, it just doesn't fit in among such heavyweight compositions. 

BTW, the poster who mentioned the costume change and the need for an instrumental or second vocalist to cover Peter's absence sounds spot on....can be the only excuse for the existence of such pap (man, I love that word...pap).

yanns-netsnjfan: can you tell me what did you insert under your avatar, i would like to have "recently songs" too (i have the account on the audioscrobbler). thank you

anyway more fool me is not bad song but try to compare that to others songs in the gabe era

In 1973, for the recording of their next studio album, Genesis had a break from touring for the writting of new songs. They had a hard time, because they were not very happy with the material. I have read inteviews done with the "Famous Pop Trio" (Banks/Collins/Rutherford)  on which they said that "Selling England..." was a difficult album since the songwriting period.

Banks and Gabriel didn`t like "After the Ordeal" (mainly composed by Hackett), but Gabriel didn`t like the long instrumental section in "The Cinema Show" (which consists predominantly of  keyboard solos by Banks).

They said: "The band was in a depressive state".

Collins said: "I think that my desire to start Brand X started while the making of "Selling England..." At that time I thought that I really  couldn`t  play the drums".

Collins :"Mike and me wrote "More Fool Me"".

Fortunatelly, the final product ("Selling England...") was better than they expected.

IMO too, "More Fool Me" brought a  balance to the album. A love song among a lot of  good Prog Rock music. It works in a similar way as "For Absent Friends" (also sung by Collins) and "Harlequin" in the "Nursery Cryme" album.

Jim Garten wrote: [QUOTE=Fearless]Between songs, Peter usually had to change costumes at the live shows, so Phil and the others would handle vocals on one of these short songs while Peter changed (More Fool Me, For Absent Friends, Harlequin).

The backing vocals could have been a recording, or even (as you said) Peter from back stage.  This has always confused me, because Peter doesn't sing backup on the studio version (I believe it is Tony, and/or Mike).  Who know's, maybe he got changed rather quickly and decided to chip in.

Fearless wrote: Jim Garten wrote: [QUOTE=Fearless]Between songs, Peter usually had to change costumes at the live shows, so Phil and the others would handle vocals on one of these short songs while Peter changed (More Fool Me, For Absent Friends, Harlequin). An interesting theory, but on the Genesis 'Archives' box set, Gabriel is doing the backing vocals for More Fool Me.... mind you, he could have been doing these from backstage, whilst hopping about getting out of a frock & trying not to trip over the fox's head (there's a mental image for you). QUOTE] The backing vocals could have been a recording, or even (as you said) Peter from back stage.  This has always confused me, because Peter doesn't sing backup on the studio version (I believe it is Tony, and/or Mike).  Who know's, maybe he got changed rather quickly and decided to chip in.

There is an official video from 1973 called "Tony Smith presents Genesis". "More Fool Me" wasn`t included in the video, but Peter Gabriel sometimes changes costumes on  the back of the  stage while the band is playing an instrumental part of a song, or even he puts his "flower" on his head while singing "A flower?" in "Suppers`Ready". In "Apocalypse in 9/8" he disappears briefly during the organ solo, goes to the back of the stage, and changes costumes. The same is for the instrumental section of "The Musical Box". He did the change of costumes on stage.

I think that there is another underlying reason why people hate More Fool Me.

It was the 1st major song with Phil on lead vocals & the hatred of what Collins ended up doing in the 80s is more or less unanimous in the Prog world....... so a song like More Fool Me which anyway isnt an epic like other songs on SEBTP gets a lot of crap from Prog fans which it probably wouldnt have got had it just got the label of 'Gabriel' on it rather than 'Collins' 

Personally, I think its a decent song......... just good enough to be decent filler.

But why people hate 'I Know What I Like' other than the fact that it was a hit is just something i cant get!

ivan_2068 wrote: It's boring and out of place in a Gabriel era album, maybe it's right place would be  on Invisible Touch for those who like soft adult ballads. Iván

Agreed. It is completely out of place. You have songs that are written extremely well with lyrics that are very extensive and than you have "More Fool Me." Okay he talks about trouble in a relationship and than says theyll make it alright, than why are you writing a song about it? If you are telling yourself its all gonna be alright its okay than just tell it to yourself, don't write a song about it on such a well written album. It does lower my score of "Selling England" just a bit.

Doktor Dyper wrote: I think that there is another underlying reason why people hate More Fool Me. It was the 1st major song with Phil on lead vocals & the hatred of what Collins ended up doing in the 80s is more or less unanimous in the Prog world....... so a song like More Fool Me which anyway isnt an epic like other songs on SEBTP gets a lot of crap from Prog fans which it probably wouldnt have got had it just got the label of 'Gabriel' on it rather than 'Collins'  Personally, I think its a decent song......... just good enough to be decent filler. But why people hate 'I Know What I Like' other than the fact that it was a hit is just something i cant get!

Absolutely agree Dyper!

Quote:

Agreed. It is completely out of place. You have songs that are written extremely well with lyrics that are very extensive and than you have "More Fool Me." Okay he talks about trouble in a relationship and than says theyll make it alright, than why are you writing a song about it? If you are telling yourself its all gonna be alright its okay than just tell it to yourself, don't write a song about it on such a well written album. It does lower my score of "Selling England" just a bit.

/Quote

^This is the kind of statement that I would expect from Vh 1 or Rolling Stone.  It's okay to not like the song (of course it's personal opinion).  But it's important to understand that SEbtP is a concept album (somewhat) about the downfall of England.  The song is definately not "pointless", it is about deception.  And Collins isn't telling himself that it will be alright, he is telling his lover that it will be alright, even after she left him he still loves her.  However there are several meanings one can get from this song, but this is the easiest to explain. 

It just bothers me when people ignorantly say that More Fool Me is pointless.  Even if you don't think that it fits in, it still has a point, just listen to it in the context of the album.

Fearless wrote:   Quote: Agreed. It is completely out of place. You have songs that are written extremely well with lyrics that are very extensive and than you have "More Fool Me." Okay he talks about trouble in a relationship and than says theyll make it alright, than why are you writing a song about it? If you are telling yourself its all gonna be alright its okay than just tell it to yourself, don't write a song about it on such a well written album. It does lower my score of "Selling England" just a bit. /Quote     ^This is the kind of statement that I would expect from Vh 1 or Rolling Stone.  It's okay to not like the song (of course it's personal opinion).  But it's important to understand that SEbtP is a concept album (somewhat) about the downfall of England.  The song is definately not "pointless", it is about deception.  And Collins isn't telling himself that it will be alright, he is telling his lover that it will be alright, even after she left him he still loves her.  However there are several meanings one can get from this song, but this is the easiest to explain.  It just bothers me when people ignorantly say that More Fool Me is pointless.  Even if you don't think that it fits in, it still has a point, just listen to it in the context of the album.

What reviews have you read, or statements from the rolling stone or VH1 that would criticize short, radio friendly songs, with a repeating chorus that would fit well with any pop station? Does Rolling Stone and VH1 praise well written lyrics (rest of album) and think that lyrics about love that every person can relate to are pointless?

I have never thought of it in context to the album because it is, in fact, almost hard to believe that it relates. I understand (sort of) the point your getting at but even if you relate More Fool Me with the album (and that is a far, far stretch) how are you relating it with the downfall of England? Do you mean that people are losing some morality in england at the time and divorce and breakups are more readily available? I'm kind of losing you here, but if you are right and it does indeed relate the the concept, I will not say it is out of place anymore and I will stand corrected.

I understand if you have a deep connection with the song and the theme (that I may be missing) but I still don't understand where the rolling stone comes in from the comment that I wrote.

I can't stand the song.  I think Phil's vocals are horrible on it, and I'm one of the people constantly defending him as a good singer.  The pace of the song is very irritating (the way the guitar stops and starts in curious spots).  I thought his turn on 'For Absent Friends' was pretty good, so to hear this 2 years later was a letdown.  Add to that the bland lyrics.  A 3-minute turd.

IMHO, of course

I agree with you there, yanns, as it IS quite a good lovesong. But maybe that's just because I'm a woman. And maybe the reason why others here don't like it is because they're hardcore proggers. You see- man singing cute cute song with acoustic guitar and no time sig-change etc is DIFFERENT to an extreme variety of instruments, lyrics that are beyond the codes and conventions of "poor me- I've been used by you- but I still love you (awwww- isn't that NICE)" and all other lovesongs and differents and surprising beats/ volumes that change all the way through the song...

It's a good song for a pop-lovesong. But it's just not interesting enough- so to speak. I DO like it though. In fact it's kinda funny you bought it up because I'm trying to learn how to play it.

One bad apple does not an unfluid and inconsistent album make....

I simply skip this track and enjoy the majesty of the rest.

FragileDT wrote: Fearless wrote:   Quote: Agreed. It is completely out of place. You have songs that are written extremely well with lyrics that are very extensive and than you have "More Fool Me." Okay he talks about trouble in a relationship and than says theyll make it alright, than why are you writing a song about it? If you are telling yourself its all gonna be alright its okay than just tell it to yourself, don't write a song about it on such a well written album. It does lower my score of "Selling England" just a bit. /Quote     ^This is the kind of statement that I would expect from Vh 1 or Rolling Stone.  It's okay to not like the song (of course it's personal opinion).  But it's important to understand that SEbtP is a concept album (somewhat) about the downfall of England.  The song is definately not "pointless", it is about deception.  And Collins isn't telling himself that it will be alright, he is telling his lover that it will be alright, even after she left him he still loves her.  However there are several meanings one can get from this song, but this is the easiest to explain.  It just bothers me when people ignorantly say that More Fool Me is pointless.  Even if you don't think that it fits in, it still has a point, just listen to it in the context of the album.   What reviews have you read, or statements from the rolling stone or VH1 that would criticize short, radio friendly songs, with a repeating chorus that would fit well with any pop station? Does Rolling Stone and VH1 praise well written lyrics (rest of album) and think that lyrics about love that every person can relate to are pointless? I have never thought of it in context to the album because it is, in fact, almost hard to believe that it relates. I understand (sort of) the point your getting at but even if you relate More Fool Me with the album (and that is a far, far stretch) how are you relating it with the downfall of England? Do you mean that people are losing some morality in england at the time and divorce and breakups are more readily available? I'm kind of losing you here, but if you are right and it does indeed relate the the concept, I will not say it is out of place anymore and I will stand corrected. I understand if you have a deep connection with the song and the theme (that I may be missing) but I still don't understand where the rolling stone comes in from the comment that I wrote.

The Vh1 comment comes from the way that you ignorantly made fun of the lyrics without understanding them or knowing what they mean.  And btw, the bash short radio songs all the time, have you ever seen the "Awesomely bad" countdowns?  I think I've seen more Phil Collins songs on there than any other artist.

As for the concept of SEbtP, and how MFM relates:  instead of trying to explain that (I already attempted to), just read the collaborators reviews, particularly Sean Trane's review.

Btw, I appreciate your humble attitude toward my opinion.

Its good, simple yet identifiable lyrics puts a smile on my face

well, this is just like me in that I like songs that no one else is know would even listen to let alone like

Snow Dog wrote: Doktor Dyper wrote: I think that there is another underlying reason why people hate More Fool Me. It was the 1st major song with Phil on lead vocals & the hatred of what Collins ended up doing in the 80s is more or less unanimous in the Prog world....... so a song like More Fool Me which anyway isnt an epic like other songs on SEBTP gets a lot of crap from Prog fans which it probably wouldnt have got had it just got the label of 'Gabriel' on it rather than 'Collins'  Personally, I think its a decent song......... just good enough to be decent filler. But why people hate 'I Know What I Like' other than the fact that it was a hit is just something i cant get! Absolutely agree Dyper!

I agree too! "More Fool me" is not the best track from SEBTP but is very enjoyable (actually my least favourite track from the album is "After the Ordeal"), and it's FAR, SO FAR from being crap. I have the funny idea of had "More Fool me" been sung by either Peter Gabriel or Jon Anderson, would those Collins-haters love it?  maybe........

Hoily God, I reead shorter threads about great albums, but we lost 3 pages on this crappy, cheesy ballad.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Hoily God, I reead shorter threads about great albums, but we lost 3 pages on this crappy, cheesy ballad. Iván

Revive those threads, quickly Ivan ... or we'll make it to a fourth page ...

No way I would give SEBTP 5 stars, mostly because of the infamous More Fool Me and the mediocre I Know What I Like.

Try Foxtrot, it's perfect, not a weak song.

Iván

The Miracle wrote: ^Nursery Cryme is perfect too. Listening to it now. Both For Absent Friends and Harlequin fit so perfectly... People tend to compare them to MFM, but there is a difference: they are transitions, adding atmosphere to the album and making it more whole, they're not pop ballads, and they're a minute long each. totally different category IMO. I Know What I Like and MFM sound like painful distractions(to me)

I always had a problem chosing betwen Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, always saw this two albums as two sides of the same coin, both very dark and atmospheric, with Hackett working perfectly with Banks, Gabriel at his natural vocal range peak, my two favorites.

Nursery Cryme has my all time favorite track (Musical Box) and two top 10 (Fountain of Salmacis and The Return of the Giant Hogweed), Foxtrot on the other hand my second favorite (Can-Utility and the Coastliners), the only real Genesis epic, but has no weak racks, For Absent Friends is not as bad as More Fool Me, but it doesn't fit perfectly in such  a great album.

Still can't decide which one I like more.

Iván

A nice small song but somehow it does not fit into the list of other great songs from the album (I also think that "I know what I like" is VERY VERY overrated - it's far from being a masterpiece)

"Try Foxtrot, it's perfect, not a weak song."

*cough* You forgetting Time Table?  That one is one of the worst songs Genesis ever did, IMO.  Of course, it's a Tony Banks tune -- Banks was borderline incompetent as a writer.

"More fool me" is a pleasant short pop song. What is the problem with tht. I´d rather listen to this a hundred times before playing "On the run " from the same year. I´d rather listen to this than most of the 80 minutes in "Tales" . Or those 10 minutes of filler in "Lark´s part one".

You see?, the problem is not that "Selling" has a poppy song. The problem is that people want this album to not beat dramatically the rest of the albums from that year.

Zargus wrote: The song is total crap, i have nothing against good pop songs, but that song is not good. your taste must stink if you think its good, have you ever heard the Beatles?

Oh well it must be fact, my taste must stink then.  Funny, I personally liked my music taste, but now I know I've been listening to crap all these years since you've shown me the light Zargus.

Your taste must superlative, lets hope we can all have taste just like yours.